| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| keijemon |
Posted - 08 Jun 2006 : 20:44:45
Hi folks,
I realise that this question is more likely to get a proper response if I posted it in the "Ask Ed Greenwood" thread, but those things grow fast and unswered in batches later on, I am more likely to just loose a reply in there (untills months later when compedium is put up). So I decided to just have a discussion here, and if someone "in the know" ever sees this topic, so much the better. Here goes:
I'm wondering if Mystra understands the inner workings of magic... Let me explain before you start throwing stones. On numerous occasions Ed has pointed out that "Mystra IS the Weave" (his caps, my italics). But look at it this way. This sum total of flesh and blood that's sitting here typing this post, IS me, but do I really understand how this flesh and blood thing really works? I can make my body move in any way it is capable of moving, but I don't sense the signal my brain sends to make it move, I don't understand the chemical reactions that take place as a result of those signals. So if Mystra is the weave, "the one true spell", that simply means he can make magic do anything it is capable of doing, just like I can make my body do. But does she, unlike me, understand the inner workings, does she feel the signals her mind sends, does she know the reactions that take place, can she write it down in formulas (if a language existed that could completely describe magic). Or does she "just do it", so to say, and her actual knowledge comes from her portfolio of Mages, and thus she only knows the sum total of what the mages that draw on the weave know? Could that be the reason she tries to empower magic use, for both good and evil (aside from minor PMS streak by Midnight and Co.)
She doesn't create new mages (she does very rarely, and mostly to make chosen), so she doesn't spread magic, she seeks to empower the knowledge of the mages, so they understand it better and are more capable to utilize it.
So the question is: Does she spread and encourages lore for the sake of having more, just a perpetual aimless desire of her nature, or does she seek to understand herself? I seem to lean towards the later explanation, if for no other reason than her title as "the one true spell", spells don't understand themselves or anything, mages do. And Mystra doesn't call herself "the one true mage". |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Jun 2006 : 01:36:03
I always feel validated when someone else uses a comic book analogy  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Jun 2006 : 01:17:54
Actually, it was kind of more like a Professor Xavier mindwipes Magneto-deal leading to the formation of Onslaught -- from Fatal Attractions... and forming a third entity. Selune tore magical essence from her being and threw it at Shar... which then ripped through Shar's form pulling similar energy with it. This energy became Mystryl.
|
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 23:24:50
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I wasn't being specific... I just threw Mystryl in for good measure. Even after her own *creation*, there's likely very little she actually knew about how mortals, when they came about, understood magic and the Weave.
Mystra I, after Mystryl's reformation, and Midnight/Mystra are the *real* examples my ramblings concern.
Sage, wasn't Mystryl born out of divine energy that Shar and Selune hurled at each other? (I don't have the books at hand right now...) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 03:06:13
I wasn't being specific... I just threw Mystryl in for good measure. Even after her own *creation*, there's likely very little she actually knew about how mortals, when they came about, understood magic and the Weave.
Mystra I, after Mystryl's reformation, and Midnight/Mystra are the *real* examples my ramblings concern.
|
| keijemon |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 02:46:29
That was a great read Sage, but I have a question. You said that both Mystryl and Mystra 1 ascended, but the fight between Selune and Shar that formed the Weave took place before the world was populated, it was over whether or not the wormth should be given to it to support life. So how could Mystryl ascend? I always thought of her as original manifestation of the weave and never seen anyone say otherwise until you. So Mystryl comes from another Prime world then or there was no goddess of magic until world developed later on?
/edit: oh and Kes_Alanadel, who do I remind you of? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 02:45:21
Hm . . . reminds me of how the Spectre had to have a mortal "touchstone" to keep him understanting humanity . . . |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 01:38:24
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
So the question is: Does she spread and encourages lore for the sake of having more, just a perpetual aimless desire of her nature, or does she seek to understand herself? I seem to lean towards the later explanation, if for no other reason than her title as "the one true spell", spells don't understand themselves or anything, mages do. And Mystra doesn't call herself "the one true mage".
I would think that, for the most part, Mystra... and all the other previous holders who've assumed the mantle of "Goddess of Magic"... all have had some significant understanding of the Weave itself and the nature of arcane magic in the Realms. As has been said... they are deities afterall, and possess a level of skill and knowledge, as well as a deeper connection to the sum of all magic -- the Weave (they are and have been the Weave) -- that mortals can never truly appreciate.
But, at the same time, I think that Mystra 1.0 lost a little something along the way. And that is, in part, why the office of Magister and the Chosen of Mystra exist. They exist to further the study and expansion of the Weave -- the Art in the Realms. But perhaps it's more than that... they exist to help Mystra 1.0 to understand how mortals understand and appreciate the Art. They exist, to prevent another Karsus-styled incident. It's all well and good to say that both Mystryl and Mystra 1.0 have a deity's level of understanding regarding the Weave, because they are the Weave, and that they can and have made it impossible for mortals to attain certain levels of magic usage to prevent future threats to themselves and the Weave -- but that same type of knowledge and ability has also left them without a facility to comprehend or appreciate how mortals truly interact and utilise the Weave... Mystra 1.0 was trying to understand the Weave and magic usage from the perspective of mortals through mortals -- the Magister and the Chosen.
Perhaps, both Mystryl and Mystra 1.0, as mortals before they ascended, had that particular mortal-level of understanding of the Weave. But with ascension, time and a deity's power... that knowledge was simply lost, forgotten or pushed away to some insignificant corner of a deity's core existence. And it's an understanding they needed to reclaim. Whereas, Midnight/Mystra has a subtle advantage... for the time being. She's still recently ascended... and still retains, likely, a greater understanding of how mortals appreciate magic and the Weave from her own time as a mage.
I'm not saying that Mystra 1.0 and Midnight/Mystra need to "dumb down" in order to have a complete and thorough understanding of magic and the Weave -- that's something that comes when one becomes one with the Weave. But, as I see it, the Mystran clergies, Azuth, the Magister, and the Chosen all provide a level of knowledge that is no longer easily reached or understand by Mystra.
Mystra understands magic and the Weave -- it is of herself and herself is it. But that's only a part of it. She also needs to understand how non-deities understand magic and the Weave.
|
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 01:36:01
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
According to MoF, Karsus found himself unqualified and magic began to unravel. Mystryl didn't kill Karsus, it was more that when she sacrificed herself to save the weave, the backlash from that is what slayed Karsus. Since he was tied to her in that moment, trying to steal her divinity, when she made the sacrifice it got him as well. I believe in the FRCS it is stated that when this happened, Karsus saw what he had wrought, and realized his mistake, but too late.
She killed him according to you, can't have murder suicide without a murder. I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that your argument doesn't support your conclusion, it supports mine.
Sigh... her understanding it does ruin a nice philosophical adventure detour I was planning (my players agree with you, I just didn't see any compelling evidence to support her understanding the inner workings of the weave).
And Kaladorm, you aren't being negative, you are quite right I was looking for a confirmation, to argue my point to my players, I just wanted to make sure I don't get a default response of status quo, but rather a well argued counter to my opinion. Keep the fire to the toes, so to say.
I tried to answer your question, and you are seeming to only read what you want to (reminds me greatly of someone else as well). I did not say that Mystryl killed Karsus, it was Karsus' fault alone, for if he had not tried to take Mystryl's divinity, thus making the Weave unstable he would not have died. It was never a "murder/suicide", and I really am not sure where in lore you would find that referenced. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 01:15:29
As I understood Karsus' fall, it went like this. Man develops spell that calls upon weave to take away position from a deity. Man casts spell, which is still dependent upon weave, to remove deity responsible for weave control from her position. Weave becomes unstable as former deity is taken away from controlling it, but spell has not completed yet by installing man into deity's place. Spell begins to fall apart because the basis upon which it was built is no longer in control. Uncontrolled spell has uncontrolled results, thus Karsus dies. Deity only manages to put weave under control by somehow taking the tendrils and tying them to Mystra, "dying" in the process. Had said spell been used on any other deity it supposedly would have worked fine.
As to how much does Mystra understand of magic. I'm inclined to believe like the original poster. Several times it has been stated that Elminster is helping Midnight to settle into her role of controlling the weave. That in itself implies that this current goddess of magic doesn't quite understand how everything works. To my view it would be like finding yourself in the body of say some kind of unusual para-elemental. You might instinctually know how to hurl a lightning bolt, but you don't necessarily know that you're drawing on energy from the elemental plane of air.... or you don't know that fire magic might be especially dangerous to you until you "touch the stove" per se. Others who were more in tune with Mystra (say the Chosen) might know how some of these things affected the old Mystra and thus can help her to understand herself.... and having tied themselves to the weave they may be able to help her interpret similar types of things. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 00:52:07
quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
According to MoF, Karsus found himself unqualified and magic began to unravel. Mystryl didn't kill Karsus, it was more that when she sacrificed herself to save the weave, the backlash from that is what slayed Karsus. Since he was tied to her in that moment, trying to steal her divinity, when she made the sacrifice it got him as well. I believe in the FRCS it is stated that when this happened, Karsus saw what he had wrought, and realized his mistake, but too late.
She killed him according to you, can't have murder suicide without a murder. I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that your argument doesn't support your conclusion, it supports mine.
Sigh... her understanding it does ruin a nice philosophical adventure detour I was planning (my players agree with you, I just didn't see any compelling evidence to support her understanding the inner workings of the weave).
And Kaladorm, you aren't being negative, you are quite right I was looking for a confirmation, to argue my point to my players, I just wanted to make sure I don't get a default response of status quo, but rather a well argued counter to my opinion. Keep the fire to the toes, so to say. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 00:48:46
I hate to say anything negative, but I think you're looking for a confirmation of your thoughts, not a discussion of possible events.
The fall of Karsus has never been mentioned by any of us as Mystra killing him, in particular my example was used to show how Mystra uses and protects the weave (again the subtle difference in that she sacrificed herself to save the Weave, not that she sacrificed herself 'as' the Weave) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 23:59:47
I agree with most of what the others said, Mystryl, Mystra, Midnight/Mystra all know and understand magic. They are deities after all and that's a lot different then using "Do we know how our bodies work," as a example. Of course they know how thier bodies work, etc. They have worshippers who research this stuff, Mystra has the most Chosen who can also give her memories and research, she has a lot of high level magic users that draw on the Weave, etc.
Do remember, also, that she isn't the patron of arcane magic users, that's Azuth. She is only the patron of the source of Weave magic that resides through FR. Hells, Azuth can help her know herself as well.
So in summery, there's a huge difference between mortals not knowing thier bodies and deities knowing about thier portfolios, their deity essence, etc. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 22:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
So one of you says that Mystryl did kill him (taking them both out), another says no. Clear as smoke.
Which one of them would that be?
Kes_Alanadel: "Mystryl didn't kill Karsus, it was more that when she sacrificed herself to save the weave, the backlash from that is what slayed Karsus.
Mace Hammerhand: "Karsus did not even last a second. The amount of power killed him, not Mystryl,"
Now, if you're going to complain about peoples' responses - read them properly first. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 22:03:34
So one of you says that Mystryl did kill him (taking them both out), another says no. Clear as smoke. (and beetle would last quite a while if you don't send it to space, but keep the rocket close to earth it's actually quite slow, and even going into space wouldn't destroy the car completely)
That story of Karsus as I read it tells me she killed him, I'm not quite sure how you can argue otherwise based on lore. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 21:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
(of particular note the fall of Karsus)
Karsus was killed by Mystra as her final act as a goddess (a deity of equal or greater power, so she by the rules can kill him), and he was disoriented since he gained all the power so quickly, he had it worse than Midnight, and she went out of the loop for a while at first too. So Karsus is really not a counter argument to anything, the guy did pretty well for himself with what little he had to work with.
Karsus did not even last a second. The amount of power killed him, not Mystryl, Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave. Karsus's death, to make it a little more understandable was like mounting a rocket engine of the Apollo into the frame of a 1966 beetle and firing it off.
How long do you think the beetle will last? |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 21:49:51
According to MoF, Karsus found himself unqualified and magic began to unravel. Mystryl didn't kill Karsus, it was more that when she sacrificed herself to save the weave, the backlash from that is what slayed Karsus. Since he was tied to her in that moment, trying to steal her divinity, when she made the sacrifice it got him as well. I believe in the FRCS it is stated that when this happened, Karsus saw what he had wrought, and realized his mistake, but too late. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 20:11:04
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
(of particular note the fall of Karsus)
Karsus was killed by Mystra as her final act as a goddess (a deity of equal or greater power, so she by the rules can kill him), and he was disoriented since he gained all the power so quickly, he had it worse than Midnight, and she went out of the loop for a while at first too. So Karsus is really not a counter argument to anything, the guy did pretty well for himself with what little he had to work with. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:45:45
You won't get an answer straight away if you ask Ed but it should get answered eventually.
It's not necessarily a question that has to be answered by Ed, I'm sure one of the other FR game designers (particularly ones which have worked on any of the 2e/3e deities books) would be able to answer the question.
The reason I went into the detail was to explore how Mystra's connection with the Weave was formed, and developed. It also gave insight into ways in which the Weave can be manipulated by both users and herself (of particular note the fall of Karsus) |
| keijemon |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:38:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Mystryl (the original) was born as a part of Selune's essence (and Shars), which she ripped from her own being in order to balance the battle between light and darkness, literally. With Mystryl being born, magic changed. It was no longer restricted to the deities, but anyone with talent enough could learn to use it. Her existence changed the reality of the universe by creating the Weave.
Direct quote here: Mystryl's duty was to tend and repair the weave, but she was so much more than that. Mystryl was the embodiment of the Weave (note here the subtle difference to IS the weave). It ebbed and flowed with her moods, actions and energy. Something that harmed the Weave harmed Mystryl, and vice versa. Her ties to the Weave were so strong that only she could fully understand and protect it.
Mystra has the ability to cut people off from the weave, it is somewhat taxing for her, and usually reserved for those who would abuse magic itself or try to harm magic itself, and this is known as Mystra's Refusal.
There is also some lore (of which I'm not sure right now) regarding Mystras workings of Epic magic, High Magic (Circle Magic?), and spells above 9th level, which someone else may be able to tell you more about
You didn't have to cover that much, by Mystra, I meant the combined mistra, I don't see them as separate goddesses. Memories only mater if predecessor had the knowledge. That IS part is not my opinion, that is Ed's statement. And that quote does seems to point toward her understanding the weave, but only like a psichologist understands a human mind (it talks about mood, action and energy), not like a scientist understands a human body and mind. She seems to feel how the weave is working, rather than know how.
... I think I should go to the "ask Ed..." thread, but it'll so get lost there, I just know it. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 13:05:00
I have to agree with Kaladorm, we are unable to control every function of our body. We might know everything about it, but we do not. If we grow ill we cannot just will it away, would be nice if we could but we cannot, otherwise cancer would not be a real problem...
Mystra is the weave, the weave basically is magic. A human is not life itself, we could be termed as life-users, same as mages/wizards are magic-users. Both groups can apply parts of their 'special' powers, but neither does control every aspect of it.
Karsus is a prime example for the magic-USER part. He was unable to control magic because he did not know magic by heart, it was not part of him, he wasn't magic.
Mystryl/Mystra I & II are the same in their basic responsibilities and capabilities, they are the Weave and as such magic. They are/were the brain which has utter control over the body, take away the brain/heart/soul of magic and it goes bananas, as shown in the Fall of Netheril and the Time of Troubles.
They use spells developed by others, but it could also be interpreted thusly: the mages who develop the spells basically just discover one more aspect of what is already there, much like real-life scientists discover things that have been there long before they discovered them. So Mystra might use Bigby's crushing hand, and still even call it this, because it was him who named it/discovered it, while she has used it way before the Big B came along. She wouldn't have bothered naming any of the spells, they are there for her to use anyway, why bother naming them?
um...yea...that's it :-D |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 10:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
@Kaladorm: The example was poor, because the point you were trying to support is flawed, we do have control over our bodies in any way that can be conceived in our world, just like she has control of the weave in any way that can be conceived in D&D.
I think you've misinterpreted my point a litte. Yes we do have control over our bodies, but I was talking about entirely conscious control, and comparing it with Mystra's concious control of the weave |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 09:57:37
I'm going to try and tackle this on a more fundamental level than the workings of individual spells. As Kes_Alanadel pointed out, this current incarnation of Mystra was originally a mortal (and much more well known for 'meddling' than any other incarnation).
Mystryl (the original) was born as a part of Selune's essence (and Shars), which she ripped from her own being in order to balance the battle between light and darkness, literally. With Mystryl being born, magic changed. It was no longer restricted to the deities, but anyone with talent enough could learn to use it. Her existence changed the reality of the universe by creating the Weave.
Direct quote here: Mystryl's duty was to tend and repair the weave, but she was so much more than that. Mystryl was the embodiment of the Weave (note here the subtle difference to IS the weave). It ebbed and flowed with her moods, actions and energy. Something that harmed the Weave harmed Mystryl, and vice versa. Her ties to the Weave were so strong that only she could fully understand and protect it.
Mystra has the ability to cut people off from the weave, it is somewhat taxing for her, and usually reserved for those who would abuse magic itself or try to harm magic itself, and this is known as Mystra's Refusal.
There is also some lore (of which I'm not sure right now) regarding Mystras workings of Epic magic, High Magic (Circle Magic?), and spells above 9th level, which someone else may be able to tell you more about |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 03:41:08
Well, Midnight was a mage herself before ascending to become Mystra. That should mean that she knows the working of any spell that is known by any mage in Faerun. My thinking would be that she could write any formula down, if needed, because the knowledge is an innate part of her. IIRC, she is bothered by the memories of the previous Mystra, and Mystryl as well, which means that she should have their knowledge of the concept and reality of the Weave. In one of the sourcebooks (not sure which) it states that she knows what spells are cast when, and by whom.
Disclaimer: I don't have many of the 2e sources, nor have I read all the Avatar novels, so this is based only on what I have gathered from 3e sources.
~Kes |
| keijemon |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 03:31:16
@Asgetrion: hey that is the first time I had to spell the word "flesh", I think I did pretty good.
@Kaladorm: The example was poor, because the point you were trying to support is flawed, we do have control over our bodies in any way that can be conceived in our world, just like she has control of the weave in any way that can be conceived in D&D.
I'm going to distil my point somewhat: If I wanted to know how my body works, I'd go to a biologists (doctors, geneticists, etc), but their knowledge is incomple even combined, so I'll sponsor more research. Mystra seems to do the same thing, mages keep learning more about magic, but it still incomplete, and she sponsors further research (we always see her use spells invented by humans/elves/etc, she is not an origin of any spell that we know of, save spellfire, which is arguably not a spell in a usual sense). |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 00:51:57
Ok poor example, I've had a little too much wine  .
I'll get you a better metaphor in the morning  |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 00:46:32
Essentially I'd say yes, not only IS she the weave, but she also controls it.
One example would be, she can cut off someones use of the weave if she so wills it. A human couldn't stop their liver from working by sheer force of will |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 00:29:23
"Flash and blood"  |
|
|
