| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 May 2006 : 22:44:30
Hmmm.....
Can someone explain to me how Cyric has rangers as clergy, according to Lords of Darkness... He's really not a ranger deity.... And he's not on the list in F&P.... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 31 May 2006 : 00:59:21
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
However, you must have a patron deity to receive spells (as Ed has noted here at Candlekeep many times), and thus the whole Eldreth Veluuthra "Hey, let's tap directly into Nature's Power - who need gods anyway?"-crap contradicts previously published Realmslore. Unless there IS a deity masquerading behind their newly discovered powers (Moander? Lloth?).
Just a note: Ed has answered this and it's a july 13, 2005 entry to me. :) |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 31 May 2006 : 00:22:19
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Didn't mean to imply anything about your personal opinions there, I guess I should clarify. I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things we have seen some introductions to Realmslore that really screamed "hit the brakes" to my way of thinking much moreso than Cyric having rangers, for example, the Eldreth Veluuthra getting spells from "nature."
Sorry if I came across too harsh. I guess I just filed this one under "could it happen, sure, is it likely, no" category in my mind.
I agree with you here. I think any deity may have any kind of followers, since it has been noted often by FR authors that many deities are very "relaxed" with the way they grant spells. Thus, I see that "non-nature" deities might have rangers or druids as followers. Eric Boyd noted this also, when I asked him about the list of nature deities in FRCS (and Talona's absence from that list).
However, you must have a patron deity to receive spells (as Ed has noted here at Candlekeep many times), and thus the whole Eldreth Veluuthra "Hey, let's tap directly into Nature's Power - who need gods anyway?"-crap contradicts previously published Realmslore. Unless there IS a deity masquerading behind their newly discovered powers (Moander? Lloth?). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 01:22:08
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things we have seen some introductions to Realmslore that really screamed "hit the brakes" to my way of thinking much moreso than Cyric having rangers...
I wouldn't have so much problem with it if there'd been something kind of explanation -- a particular note -- as to why a deity with no traditional nature/animal aspects in his/her portfolio is allowed rangers. I still probably wouldn't allow it given the house-rule I mentioned above... but at least it would have a proper in-game Realmslore explanation attached.
I suppose what was written in the FRCS about rangers sometimes choosing unusual deities as patrons is enough to support this... but, I don't know, that explanation seems somewhat lacking when you consider we *are* in fact talking about Cyric as a patron deity choice for rangers. That feels like kind of a stretch...
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 17:35:52
Didn't mean to imply anything about your personal opinions there, I guess I should clarify. I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things we have seen some introductions to Realmslore that really screamed "hit the brakes" to my way of thinking much moreso than Cyric having rangers, for example, the Eldreth Veluuthra getting spells from "nature."
Sorry if I came across too harsh. I guess I just filed this one under "could it happen, sure, is it likely, no" category in my mind. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 17:22:03
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know. Its just my opinion, but Cyric granting divine abilities to rangers doesn't seem like that most Faerun shattering bit of Realmslore ever introduced. If it doesn't work for you, I wouldn't use them, but for some reason this really doesn't really upset me.
Whoa there,
I'm not upset or anything like that and nor did I say it was shattering lore. However, I was trying to figure out why a deity that isn't natureish in nature has rangers.
Sighs. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 16:10:07
I don't know. Its just my opinion, but Cyric granting divine abilities to rangers doesn't seem like that most Faerun shattering bit of Realmslore ever introduced. If it doesn't work for you, I wouldn't use them, but for some reason this really doesn't really upset me.
Heck, the fact that rangers can be evil in 3rd edition bothered me more than this, so once I got past that, the rest is pretty easy to deal with. |
| nb_nmare |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 10:49:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
rangers by their very "nature" (pun partially intended) are an independent and unconformist lot.
This is certainly true of most chaotic and many neutral aligned rangers (though it is also true of many chaotic and neutral aligned members of other classes), but what about those who are lawfully aligned? A lawful ranger could easily feel the need to belong to some form of organisation, as could many who are neutrally aligned.
EDIT: There are, of course, even a few organizations in the Realms that are primarily or exclusively made up of rangers, such as the Fellows of the Next Mountain, the Shields of Hope, and the Stalkers of the Silent Path. Most of them also perform duties which could be seen as "mundane", such as scouting, protecting caravans, and serving as bodyguards. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 03:30:53
The Sage and I are in agreement, which is why I blinked a few times when I read that passage and then went, what!? Well, that wasn't the phrase I used but Alaundo would hurt me if I posted what I actually exclaimed. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 03:19:06
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
However on page 9 of LoD in the typical encounters section, it does state this very thing. In regards to bodyguards to clerics - one level lower than the leader, with barbarians used in barbarian lands,and fighters in civilized lands and well traveled roads.
One or two perhaps -- low-level rangers -- I can accept (and if the issue of *how* Cyric has rangers in the first place is properly explained too). But not something that suggests this is an aspect typical of rangers in general in terms of operating within Cyric's clergy.
It just doesn't fit with the mindset of being a ranger.
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| TheHermit |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 02:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As it is... I'm still trying to understand *how* Cyric has rangers in the first place. I'd like that properly answered before I could even wonder about where such a class would fit into the clergy for the Dark Sun.
There is a certain school of thought that considers Nature = Chaos and Civilization = Order. It could be that rangers who take Cyric as a patron hold to that sort of thinking. |
| scererar |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 02:04:49
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
LoD shows that Cyric attempts to convert mosters and other exotic creatures towards his cause. I would picture a ranger of Cyric as being a scout/ bodyguard of sorts to clerics of Cyric, as stated within Lod. These Rangers would provide the scouting and wilderness lore, to enable the clerics to get to where they were going, to "preach" to these creatures.
Hmmm... I'm not sure rangers of Cyric would appreciate being tied to such a mundane task within the clerical order. Sure, they're providing the clergy with duties vital to the continued conversion of monstrous creatures... but rangers by their very "nature" (pun partially intended) are an independent and unconformist lot. They don't like to be tied to specific operations and/or rules -- and operating fully within a clerical hierarchy would seem to be the death of their independence and freedom.
I hear what you are saying my friend. I believe Kuje's thread here is very interesting.
It almost seems as if the author did not do that much research on the church of Cyric portion. 
However on page 9 of LoD in the typical encounters section, it does state this very thing. In regards to bodyguards to clerics - one level lower than the leader, with barbarians used in barbarian lands,and fighters in civilized lands and well traveled roads. My friend the ranger fits in right afterwards, by being used in forested areas.
Still it does not answer the question of why and how one would receive divine spells, as the original topic here is asking, but if you do not use Cyric in your realms, not issue and at the end of the day.. is a mute point  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 01:36:52
Heh...
As it is... I'm still trying to understand *how* Cyric has rangers in the first place. I'd like that properly answered before I could even wonder about where such a class would fit into the clergy for the Dark Sun.
It's a hypothetical wondering of course... since I'd never actually allow this in my own FR.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 01:35:40
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
LoD shows that Cyric attempts to convert mosters and other exotic creatures towards his cause. I would picture a ranger of Cyric as being a scout/ bodyguard of sorts to clerics of Cyric, as stated within Lod. These Rangers would provide the scouting and wilderness lore, to enable the clerics to get to where they were going, to "preach" to these creatures.
Hmmm... I'm not sure rangers of Cyric would appreciate being tied to such a mundane task within the clerical order. Sure, they're providing the clergy with duties vital to the continued conversion of monstrous creatures... but rangers by their very "nature" (pun partially intended) are an independent and unconformist lot. They don't like to be tied to specific operations and/or rules -- and operating fully within a clerical hierarchy would seem to be the death of their independence and freedom.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 23:44:30
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
However, I do not have any type of answer for the divine spell portion. Additionally, I would disagree that Cyric would be "trusting" enough, to allow a follower to worship another god/ godess, in order to receive the divine spell aspect of the class. other deities, yes but not Cyric, he is not trusting or secure enough to allow this.
These are the two things that made me go, "Ah? What?" I just can't see him as having spellcasting rangers and there's no other deity that he'd trust to supply ranger spells to his followers. :)
Ah well, maybe someday I'll ask Ed or a different game designer about it. |
| scererar |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 23:40:18
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers...
Well, Talona is on the druid/ranger deity list in F&P and I can see why, since some of her ports could be reflected as natureish. :)
True enough. I just love the idea of twisted druids unleashing strange diseases on civilizations around Faerūn
Still, I feel that the Blightbringer PrC would have been designed for Moanderites, if Moander has been "alive" at the time it was published.
I agree with Knight, that IMO all the deities may grant any sort of divine powers/spells to their followers. Otherwise there would be no Paladins of Helm (since Helm has no paladin levels ;) or Helm would have to ask Tyr or Torm to give his poor paladins their spells 
Kuje - maybe we would need an "official" answer to this one? I like Knight's reasoning why there would be Cyric's rangers hunting and murdering people, and spreading fear of Cyric among mortals.
LoD shows that Cyric attempts to convert mosters and other exotic creatures towards his cause. I would picture a ranger of Cyric as being a scout/ bodyguard of sorts to clerics of Cyric, as stated within Lod. These Rangers would provide the scouting and wilderness lore, to enable the clerics to get to where they were going, to "preach" to these creatures. However, I do not have any type of answer for the divine spell portion. Additionally, I would disagree that Cyric would be "trusting" enough, to allow a follower to worship another god/ godess, in order to receive the divine spell aspect of the class. other deities, yes but not Cyric, he is not trusting or secure enough to allow this. |
| TheHermit |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 22:28:22
Perhaps a ranger of Cyric would base himself near a natural feature that fools the eye, such as in an area of the desert where mirages are well-known, or near a rock formation that resembles an old man sleeping or a camel, or on a so-called gravity hill, where a combination of visual references makes a downword slope appear to be an upward slope, causing things to roll uphill and such. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:36:58
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Kuje - maybe we would need an "official" answer to this one? I like Knight's reasoning why there would be Cyric's rangers hunting and murdering people, and spreading fear of Cyric among mortals.
I thought about asking Ed but I didn't get around to it. :) And I don't go to the WOTC boards to ask Rich.... |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:04:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers...
Well, Talona is on the druid/ranger deity list in F&P and I can see why, since some of her ports could be reflected as natureish. :)
True enough. I just love the idea of twisted druids unleashing strange diseases on civilizations around Faerūn
Still, I feel that the Blightbringer PrC would have been designed for Moanderites, if Moander has been "alive" at the time it was published.
I agree with Knight, that IMO all the deities may grant any sort of divine powers/spells to their followers. Otherwise there would be no Paladins of Helm (since Helm has no paladin levels ;) or Helm would have to ask Tyr or Torm to give his poor paladins their spells
Kuje - maybe we would need an "official" answer to this one? I like Knight's reasoning why there would be Cyric's rangers hunting and murdering people, and spreading fear of Cyric among mortals. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 17:23:19
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
That having been said, it might take a bit more brainstorming to come up with what Cyric gets out of sponsoring rangers. Perhaps there is a specific order of Cyricist rangers that hunts and murders humans, thus fulfilling that part of Cyric's portfolio?
This, I think, is why it seems odd to me. What does he get out of having rangers and honestly, as I said a few times, his portfolios are not natureish.... I dunno, just seems strange to me. :) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 17:21:54
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers...
Well, Talona is on the druid/ranger deity list in F&P and I can see why, since some of her ports could be reflected as natureish. :) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 15:57:37
I would think, in the long veiw, almost any deity can grant any kind of divine power they want to. Gond could have a druid if he wanted to, but its not going to do much good for his overall worship, and the druid in question isn't likely to remain true to Gond if he reveres nature deeply enough, so thats why we see "nature" gods develop. The gods most likely to support druids and rangers are the ones that have some kind of stake in how the classes advance the deities overall goals.
Rangers "feel" a bit more wide open to me. You can have a warrior that loves the outdoors, understands animals, hunting, and trapping, but also loves the land he lives in, and uses his skills to track down naer'do wells in the wilds, and worships Tyr . . . Tyr isn't a "nature" god, but the ranger aids his overall goals well.
That having been said, it might take a bit more brainstorming to come up with what Cyric gets out of sponsoring rangers. Perhaps there is a specific order of Cyricist rangers that hunts and murders humans, thus fulfilling that part of Cyric's portfolio? |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 14:00:31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Oh.
Well, I still find it weird. :)
Also, as I recall... the RANGER entry in the FRCS tells us that some rangers, with odd interests, often select patron deities outside the regular deity preferences for the druid and ranger classes.
EDIT: Just looked it up -- it's on pg. 26.
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers... |
| nb_nmare |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 10:03:10
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Actually, Mystra has had rangers since at least Faiths & Avatars, if not even further back. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:36:57
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You could take a different view, if one remembers that FR is not monothist. It is not like there is only one true deity. The patron deity is just the one most closely aligned with, that does not mean other deities are not believed in or concepts like nature. Following Ed's concept that up to level 2 spells are granted by deities in most cases without any consideration of degree of worship (in effect not noticed by granting deity at all) a ranger could select any patron deity and not worry about not getting spells until level 11 (1st time one can get a 3rd level spell if stat high enough).
Yes it might be odd, but when you can have varient rangers and rangers casting divine spells in the first place they were already odd.
I'd agree with that but the FRCS doesn't back any of that up. :) By 4th character level, you must have a patron. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:35:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's never been a factor for me anyway because, as you know, I don't have Cyric in my FR either. But also, I usually house-rule the fact that rangers, like druids, must select a deity that has nature and/or animal aspects in his/her portfolio in order to receive divine magic for their spells.
Same with me, which is probably why I found rangers of Cyric so.... odd. :)
I can see Mystra having some for the reasons stated, but Cyric? Weird. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:34:55
You could take a different view, if one remembers that FR is not monothist. It is not like there is only one true deity. The patron deity is just the one most closely aligned with, that does not mean other deities are not believed in or concepts like nature. Following Ed's concept that up to level 2 spells are granted by deities in most cases without any consideration of degree of worship (in effect not noticed by granting deity at all) a ranger could select any patron deity and not worry about not getting spells until level 11 (1st time one can get a 3rd level spell if stat high enough).
Yes it might be odd, but when you can have varient rangers and rangers casting divine spells in the first place they were already odd. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:31:47
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Well, considering the importance of the Weave on Toril, one could perhaps make the case that Mystra has a bit to do with nature. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:09:58
It's never been a factor for me anyway because, as you know, I don't have Cyric in my FR either. But also, I usually house-rule the fact that rangers, like druids, must select a deity that has nature and/or animal aspects in his/her portfolio in order to receive divine magic for their spells.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 06:57:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Also, as I recall... the RANGER entry in the FRCS tells us that some rangers, with odd interests, often select patron deities outside the regular deity preferences for the druid and ranger classes.
EDIT: Just looked it up -- it's on pg. 26.
Nod, but I still find it odd that he has rangers. :) Ah well, I'd add it to my list of things to ignore but he's not even a deity in my FR. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 06:38:13
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Oh.
Well, I still find it weird. :)
Also, as I recall... the RANGER entry in the FRCS tells us that some rangers, with odd interests, often select patron deities outside the regular deity preferences for the druid and ranger classes.
EDIT: Just looked it up -- it's on pg. 26.
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