| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 23 Apr 2006 : 15:57:21
Let's kick up some dust! 
How powerful should the Phaerimm be? The canon sourcebook for this issue, at least to me, is still Ruins of Myth Drannor. The way I look at it is that the phaerimm are the fantasy equivalent of 500 megaton bombs. And smart ones at that.
In ye olde AD&D they were considered lvl 30-40 wizards, with most in the mid 30s. Under these circumstances, even in a phaerimm toChosen contest, any Chosen would've been hard pressed to win, El was only considered lvl 29 and the Simbul 30.
If we take the I-don't-know-how-many phaerimm who were freed when the sharn wall was breached, you get a handy bunch of enough weaponry, magic-wise) to turn most of the heartlands into dust, if they were so inclined.
In RotA we have these guys make ilithids, beholders and whathaveyou into mindslaves. We're talking about a massive, and foremost destructive, army.
No matter how good the Chosen are, and my guess would be that they probably never faced such an amouunt of unified phaerimm in their lives, I think it is reasonable to assume that they were cautious. Evermeet's relief army, and even Evereska's defenders were not. The elves believed themselves superior and there was nothing the Chosen could do, except from maybe making all the elven generals mindslaves themselves.
Khelben went with the initial rescue-army from Evermeet although (if I remember correctly) he wasn't really happy about the elves' plan to do what they did, but he helped them. There was nothing he could have done.
To say the Chosen were portrayed wrong, does injustice to the situation. Sure Laeral and the others are good, very good, but how long would they be able to last against 500-800 (or even more) wizards/sorcerers of at least lvl 30?
I don't say it was a perfect solution, but the Chosen couldn't really do much. Not many could.
Maybe, had El nor been transported to (what was it?) Avernus... things might have looked a little better, at the very least the losses of Evermeet's army would not have been so high, because El would've prolly been able to stay the elves' hand. But then again, what could a half dozen Chosen do agains 500-800 phaerimm, a couple hundred beholders, ilithids etc?
You do the math...
*flame ON* |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 01 Jun 2006 : 08:03:29
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Oh, I don't know, a party that high should be able to kill one... if they can fight it *entirely* on their own terms.
And, actually, I've had lower-level parties take apart RoMD-phaerimm. But they were smart: they studied them intently and learned what did and didn't work against them over the course of many battles before they achieved a victory. Plus, that was by-far the smartest, most tightly-knit group I've ever DM'ed.
This case is an exception, if a group can choose the time and place of the conflict I have no doubt a phaerimm can be beaten, so can a high level wizard. But as you said, it takes a tight knit group and very careful planning. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Jun 2006 : 01:25:04
Oh, I don't know, a party that high should be able to kill one... if they can fight it *entirely* on their own terms.
And, actually, I've had lower-level parties take apart RoMD-phaerimm. But they were smart: they studied them intently and learned what did and didn't work against them over the course of many battles before they achieved a victory. Plus, that was by-far the smartest, most tightly-knit group I've ever DM'ed. |
| Nightbreeze |
Posted - 31 May 2006 : 14:23:36
Oh, yes the Phaerimm really defeated Netheril, but they were many and acting together. Besides, if my memory hasn't abandoned my, they never forced a direct battle, but acted in the shadows, spreading draining life magics that lead to unrest, internal fights and almost a civil war. And wasn't saying that a party of 22 lvl characters should defeat ONE, i meant that they should at least stand for a while before they have to run. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 31 May 2006 : 08:31:44
To quote an old Ravenloft hook line: there are no random encounters...only deadly ones. This holds very much true for phaerimm. With the watering down that went on with the phaerimm from 2nd to 3.5th edition they have become ... uh... whimps. Ed's treatment on the phaerimm was defined in Ruins of Myth Drannor, and anyone who ever read the stats knows phaerimm were something you just did not use as a random encounter.
I mean seriously, these folks are DEADLY, and they were meant to be so. In all honesty, if the 3.5 phaerimm are the same ones that brought down Netheril and created Anauroch one has got to wonder why the bloody hell the Netherese lost.
The CR system is a crutch, a good one certainly, but to say you need a phaerimm that can be defeated is so much beside the point that it gets ridiculous. The phaerimm managed to bring the magic-mightiest empire in human history of Faerūn to their knees, and a bunch of lvl 22 characters should defeat even one of them? I don't think so... |
| scererar |
Posted - 31 May 2006 : 04:58:54
I hear what you are saying Nightbreeze. However, I do believe Mace has the right if it.
I do not think that the phaerimm should be portrayed as in RoTA. I think that a climatic type encounter, after a long campaign, would be more suitable.
My opinion is that what happened in RoTA, where they ran rampant through Evereska and nearby lands, was a bit much, even though I truly enjoyed the trilogy. |
| Nightbreeze |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 20:17:41
Yes, but it really depends on what levels the player are. I really agree that in a normal 1-20lvl campaign players should pray and run as soon as they see something that merely resembles a phaerimm, i think that at 22th level they should have at least a chance to survive. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 08:49:33
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I wish we *WOULD* face Phaerimm with CR 21 in our longest-running campaign... too many seem to have more than 20 spellcaster levels (which, I guess, is the 2nd edition approach to them).
I think many DMs who have used Phaerimm in their campaigns don't want to modify them (=subtracting spellcaster levels) when each new edition alters their statistics.
The general problem with "modification" is that under 2nd edition rules a phaerimm could take on almost anything and live to tell the tale, so those of us familiar with Ruins of Myth Drannor live with the TPK-approach (I think), since this was the original approach. Some foes are just not to be dealt with directly.
To make enemies more easily defeatable devalues the lore in my opinion, plus it gives players the false impression. If a party is able to defeat a monster with ease the next encounter will be less dramatic.
Admittedly, phaerimm aren't something that the common adventurer faces everyday, but it should be something if encountered that the characters crawl away from. If a party encounters a paherimm it should be the final showdown of a campaign or some such thing. The survivors should learn a lesson: phaerimm=death. |
| scererar |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 17:13:08
Exactly what I was thinking. Most of the encounters, in my opinion, would be from adults to middle aged phaerimm. So in effect, a CR rating of 15 to say about 17 would probably be the norm, with maybe a leader being of 18 or 19 CR. |
| Nightbreeze |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 13:43:10
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Nightbreeze
Well, i would rule that the minimum CR for a phaerimm is 20.
That seems just right to me and besides it's the basic CR for Sarrukh, too.
LEoF, shows on page 187, a 1 to 21 CR. A Phaerimm with a 21 CR being a revered elder. I see your point, with all of the edition changes. However, from the sourcebooks I have (which is just about all of them  ) this is the latest (canon) perception that I was able to find. We can all change and make the realms "our" own though
I think that is due to the fact that the designers wanted them to be more suited to be inserted in a adventure/campaign, but i see your point, as if all of them were 20cr even the highy trained ( 7-8 lvl elves) wouldn't be able to kill them.
However i wouldn't get below cr 15 with at least 15 spellcaster levels. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:28:50
I wish we *WOULD* face Phaerimm with CR 21 in our longest-running campaign... too many seem to have more than 20 spellcaster levels (which, I guess, is the 2nd edition approach to them).
I think many DMs who have used Phaerimm in their campaigns don't want to modify them (=subtracting spellcaster levels) when each new edition alters their statistics. |
| scererar |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 17:01:38
quote:
Originally posted by Nightbreeze
Well, i would rule that the minimum CR for a phaerimm is 20.
That seems just right to me and besides it's the basic CR for Sarrukh, too.
LEoF, shows on page 187, a 1 to 21 CR. A Phaerimm with a 21 CR being a revered elder. I see your point, with all of the edition changes. However, from the sourcebooks I have (which is just about all of them ) this is the latest (canon) perception that I was able to find. We can all change and make the realms "our" own though |
| Nightbreeze |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 16:54:15
Well, i would rule that the minimum CR for a phaerimm is 20.
That seems just right to me and besides it's the basic CR for Sarrukh, too. |
| scererar |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 22:54:12
thumbing through lost empires of Faerun, I found a "newer" version of the Phaerimm. it's magical abilities develop with age. a hatchling - 1st level sorceror, while a centuries old elder - 19th level caster. I would place most of these guys in RoTA, in the middle somewhere, age-wise. I thought it was interesting. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 21:09:36
I like the TPK-version of the phaerimm, and since I scared my players basically witless when they came across a weakened one, and they fled...so I doubt they ever wanna go against one. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 20:50:32
And I'm making the larger point that fundamentally, no assessment of 'power' in Realmslore should be taken too seriously because they're all rule-of-thumb estimates to be modified by the DM: hence, in part, the use of unreliable narration. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 20:44:56
Paj asked how powerful they were originally seen... Ruins of Myth Drannor basically says phaerimm=total party kill period. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 19:48:20
I would consider that 3E portrayal of the Phaerimm, lessened to make them more practical PC adversaries, alongside that of Dendar, Kezef, etc. in Champtions of Ruin, as particularly stark examples of the way every game write-up is a partial account made up for a particular set of purposes, best used as a base for DM modification and not to be taken as a reliable and absolute depiction. The correct answer to 'How powerful are the Phaerimm really?' really is, substantially, 'How powerful do you need them for your campaign?' With provisos such as that pitting foes head to head against PCs is not the only practical way to feature them, especially in the Realms where that's not the main way these conflicts play out. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 14:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by Paj
So, how powerful were the Phaerimm originally seen as? Something akin to how Larloch is described, i.e. a force of nature itself. Or more than powerful enough to slaughter whole armies?
The original Info on the phaerimm was that they possessed ungodly MR and wizard levels so high that one could easily take on El... their wizard level started at 30 and went up to 40... |
| Paj |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 13:28:52
quote:
Actually Richard Baker has discussed the printed stats for the Phaerimm over the years on the WOTC boards and he said they did tone them down some, so that PC's could fight them without getting thier butts handed to them. If you want stronger versions, then you could add class levels to them but, as I parphrased, the printed stats of them are for PC's that are under epic level.
So, how powerful were the Phaerimm originally seen as? Something akin to how Larloch is described, i.e. a force of nature itself. Or more than powerful enough to slaughter whole armies?
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 07:17:39
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Do we know what Ed's opinion on the actions of the Chosen in the RotA-trilogy is?
If we did, it would be positive. Ed doesn't disseminate his opinions when they indicate dissatisfaction with the Realms, its authors, designers or fans. He's too nice a guy.
-- George Krashos
|
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:39:25
Do we know what Ed's opinion on the actions of the Chosen in the RotA-trilogy is? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 04:39:21
I think I am going to bow out of this one . . . and I admit, I haven't really presented anything that has helped the situation. As I said, obviously the events happened the way they did, because thats whats in the novels.
One last thought though . . . first off, I never assume that the Chosen only have access only to the resources that we have seen thusfar. To assume that the only spells the Chosen have are ones that have already seen print would be contradictory to what we know about them, and to assume that they don't have access to other magic, beside their own spells, would be as well.
As to an example of what Khelben would have done . . . I would have been less surprised by Khelben disappearing, wishing them all good luck, then showing up at the last second with Malagrys as a temporary ally . . . but thats just me, and obviously it didn't happen that way. |
| silverpriestess |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 03:26:35
quote:
I also thought that the bit with the dragons killing the innocents was a very heavy handed scene, and not in keeping with the character of all of the Chosen either. Not that the point they made was wrong . . . its the Spock delima . . . "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." But honestly, you don't think they could have dealt with the dragons without them getting away, or at least do something to teleport the people away, etc? You think the Shadovar would follow up on that little incicent? Even if they did, by then, the Chosen were gone, and nothing about the situation really gave away the plot. As I said, I just felt it was heavy handed in the point it was illustrating.
Well, for the dragon flight attacking the people, well, what can a bunch of Chosen do against the Dragon flight? Waste their spells they had so painstakingly prepared for war against the Shadovar? For everyone is responsible for their own fates and destinies. Also, who knows the dragon flight had been sent by the Shadovar to provoke the Chosen into wasting their spells on the dragons, for war is cunning and deceptive and it is wiser to conserve than act the macho hero. Secondly, teleport the people away? I am not sure how teleport works but I assume the caster must be in close proximity with those to be teleported and while casting the teleport spell, the caster can be very vulnerable to attack and anybody would seize the chance to attack. Thirdly, any Shadovar nearby or the dragons would whisper counter-words to counter any teleport spell. Also, the Shadovar can sent a pursuit anyway just to make sure their targets don't get far, sometimes, even the wisest wizard can use the traces of teleport magic or divination to predict where they went.
Heavy handed? For every mortal is responsible for their fate and destiny and it is never to anybody liking. |
| Lord of the Undead |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 03:16:57
quote:
I won't argue that it would have been a hard fight. But it seemed a little too straight forward for me. No subtlety . . . "hey, we'll sneak into Shade and find the Mythallar, then blow it up, and if the Princes show, we'll fight them." Maybe I'm just biased because I like the character, but I can't picture Khelben a) blindly following another person's plan, especially with no input from him and b) just wading into a spellbattle without choosing the conditions a little more carefully.
Well that's a natural reaction, for one going into hostile places on covert missions can expect hostile enemies waiting for them to appear and would a commander want to explain complicated mission objectives and the way to move just to confuse the soldiers under his command?
As to Khelben blindly following another person's plan, well if Khelben intend to sit and watch the mythallar and hope the Princes would appear, then it would be a waste of time. Furthermore, Khelben and the Chosen have other pressing concerns for such things happen to powerful people who always have to juggle so many matters, and Khelben and the Chosen are also concerned for Evereska and every minute delayed means a increasing step towards the loss of Evereska to the phaerimm, hence in such situations, it is "charge or die" matter and "just take whatever plan comes my way since I got other important matters to deal", this is a natural instinctive reaction. No Input from Khelben? First, Khelben doesn't know the design and properties of a mythallar especially an mythallar powered by the Shadow Weave and only Galeron knows that.
As to your second point about Chosen wading into a spellbattle without choosing the conditions? In a real battle, there is no such thing as organizing the battlefield to your own terms especially when time is pressing and no enemy is going to wait for you to get ready, those who do not understand such basic truths of war tend to end up killed first.
Also, the enemy isn't going to wait for you to organize the field to your liking or wait for you to get ready and then fight. For war have no honor involved, for not every foe is that honorable and honorable ones always get killed first and I am sure the Chosen know the rules of war well enough not to organize the field to their liking. One can organize the battlefield to one liking provided one is fighting on a field that is unknown to both sides and that one side arrive early first to ready the field but in the case of the Chosen, they simply don't have the luxury of the Time to do that. Also, secondly, they are fighting on the enemy homeground and the enemy know their home ten thousand times better than the Chosen. For even experienced soldiers such as the Chosen knows that as no one can expect how the battlefield is going to be like and when and how the enemy is going to attack. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:51:18
Ah well . . . one way or the other, the events unfolded the way they did . . . in the grand scheme of things, I wasn't that upset by the storyline, so I can mentally fudge the exact circumstances, if needs be . . .  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:46:44
The joys of a shared world environment, KE Jr ...
-- George Krashos
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 01:35:50
On the other topics: I definately agree, the Chosen have a ton of other stuff to do, even in the most dire RSE situations, that not all of them can drop everything and join in whatever effort is going on at the moment. The Shadows of the Avatar trilogy shows that pretty well.
As for Chosen not acting the way they should . . .
No mention whatsoever about friction between Storm and Khelben.
The five of them jumping into a plot together rushing off to save the world like the FR equivalent of the Justice League. I have a hard time seeing Laeral and Khelben leaving Waterdeep so open, and Dove, dispite being a Chosen, really is the least likely to join into a massive spell battle, since she is the least likely to use spells.
The fact that none of the Chosen came up with a plan, they wait until Galaeron comes up with one, and then use his, not really modifying it one bit.
I also thought that the bit with the dragons killing the innocents was a very heavy handed scene, and not in keeping with the character of all of the Chosen either. Not that the point they made was wrong . . . its the Spock delima . . . "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." But honestly, you don't think they could have dealt with the dragons without them getting away, or at least do something to teleport the people away, etc? You think the Shadovar would follow up on that little incicent? Even if they did, by then, the Chosen were gone, and nothing about the situation really gave away the plot. As I said, I just felt it was heavy handed in the point it was illustrating.
I won't argue that it would have been a hard fight. But it seemed a little too straight forward for me. No subtlety . . . "hey, we'll sneak into Shade and find the Mythallar, then blow it up, and if the Princes show, we'll fight them." Maybe I'm just biased because I like the character, but I can't picture Khelben a) blindly following another person's plan, especially with no input from him and b) just wading into a spellbattle without choosing the conditions a little more carefully.
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 01:22:51
+5 longsword, ignores weave based enhancement bonuses, weilder can cause the sword to fly to them when separated, causes 1d4 points of cold to anyone not related to the family the sword was given too, Shadovar excepted.
Dragon Magazine 281, article written by none other than Troy Denning. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 13:55:26
My impression was that the phaerimm marched only against Evereska, because of the mythal.
Even if it had only been 200 phaerimm, the Chosen would indeed have had their share of problems. As to some other heavy hitters getting involved... 4 (or was it 5?) Chosen is quite a lot of power. Plus the world most likely doesn't stop for anything, even during the Time of Troubles we had other things going on, some of which involved Elminster.
As to the Chosen not behaving like they would normally do... what should they have differently? They did what they could given teh circumstances, again that is my opinion. Even the covert-op-mission to Shade seemed a reasonable thing to do.
I'm not quite sure if the toning down of phaerimm stats was a good thing. I know that my players got more than a good fright when they just saw one. Phaerimm should not be enemies to anyone prior to epic level, IMO.
The darkswords, well, have we ever seen any stats on them? From what I understood these things were basically the shades' equivalent to moonblades, thus at least items of minor artifact power level. As for Vala wasting them left and right, so did anyone who wielded them. Phaerimm are magic-reliant, as are most of the Chosen. Plus they rely on the Weave. Neither of these groups could be harmed much by weave-based magic, Shadow-weave magic is an entirely different ballgame. The weapons the darksword-wielders used were made of shadowstuff, probably forged and folded several dozens of times.
I don't know what properties forged shadowstuff has, but if Weave magic-users are more 'vulnerable' to shadow-weave, it could be argued that shadow-weave artifacts could give weave-users, especially those who usually do not go into melee, a mighty whack. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 10:20:16
As to Mace's original starting comments, from what I read about the remaining phaerimm numbers in the Sharaedim in book 2, it was estimated at 200 phaerimm present.
But I don't think all the of the phaerimm flocked out of the Sharn Wall once it was breached, I am certain a couple of hundred phaerimm remained inside the Sharn Wall to protect their city of Phaerlin, why protect it? This I am not certain but I assume they had this "home is first priority" idea in their minds so perhaps an expeditionary team of a fair number of phaerimm-I expect them to be comprised of an assortment of the strongest to fairly strong phaerimm in it- were despatched out of the breach in the Sharn Wall to investigate the surrounding lands and see is there anything worth taking.
For the phaerimm seemed to display unity in the face of adversity and death, this maybe one of the reasons why they were considerably successful against the Chosen and the allied armies. Also, their ancient age and experience in dealing with armies and archwizards may had contributed a slight advantage over the Chosen and the allied armies. I am afraid I must agree with Mace, I estimate the fighting levels of the phaerimm (ordinary phaerimm) to be at least above level 25-29, while the so called "WarGather" and "SpellGather", I estimate them to be the commanders of the phaerimm and supposedly the elder phaerimm, I estimate such elder phaerimm at above level 29 and unlikely to be past the level 35 mark. The phaerimm also displayed adaptability and their adaptability may be one of the reasons they adapted to the battlefield well and survived the harsh years of imprisonment inside the Sharn Wall.
In the case of the allied armies, the elven armies greatest flaws are their stubborn refusal to accept advice from "lesser races" and refusal to change their tactics in accordance to changes in the battlefield, as well as their pride that they can deal with anything that comes their way. Because of these three flaws, the elves paid dearly during the initial invasion by the phaerimm but I seriously doubt they will change their ways as they appear to have a fear of change.
The Chosen truimph card against the phaerimm is their silverfire but the "recharge" rate is 1 hour so against enemies that number 300 or so of phaerimm, even the Chosen combined together can be really hard pressed to defend themselves against powerful ancient creatures who had lived through the interesting epic spellwars during the ending of Netheril.
quote:
1) there have been times that phaerimm have been killed by the score,
Perhaps, but I assume that happened during the epic wars during the ending of Netheril. Those killed are merely weaklings who have no place in the phaerimm society for being weak.
quote:
2) even for major phaerimm plots, a significant portion of the most powerful phaerimm have a tendency to sit the action out.
Not sit the action out, Elder Phaerimm are more likely to act like military commanders, evaluating the situation and planning and making contingency plans as the situation calls for. If they prefer to remain stagnant, then I think the lower ranks-who are eager for action- would had overthrown the upper ranks.
quote:
while the younger ones got wiped out. I can definately picture this.
Given the phaerimm life cycle, I think the phaerimm kind of follow the principles of Darwin where the strongest shall survive. So each stage of the phaerimm life cycle will remove the weak from the lot and the strongest are tested again and again until they reach the peak of the life cycle which they could consider themselves the strongest of the generation batch-the Elder Phaerimm, and from this surviving generation batch, stronger breeds of phaerimm are born and again they face the tests that remove the weak until the strongest survive.
If this above theory is applied to the phaerimm in the Sharn Wall, I find it a reasonable explanation as to why they are so powerful in war magics and too cunning as the centuries of harsh survival inside the Sharn Wall had removed the weak from each generation of phaerimm and only the strongest of the generation lives and so on. Unlike the myth drannor phaerimm, I think the myth drannor phaerimm did not undergo the selective life processes that the Sharn Wall phaerimm suffered, as the myth drannor phaerimm seemed quite contented with their surroundings and they do not really face the daily requirements of survival which the Sharn Wall phaerimm had undergone through. |
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