| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Faraer |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 23:47:55
Let's go!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalelands
Any basis to 'Some say Dalelanders originally came from the Great Dale.'? |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 06:27:17
Master Krashos,
me entolí mou tha sikotheís!
quote:
I'm working on tidying up the history of the East (and making fair progress of late) and I can tell you that there are reasons why settlers could come to the environs of Thesk and the Great Dale (and by Great Dale in this instance we mean places like Mettledale and Spearsmouth Dale, not Bezentil and other settlements inside the woodlands) and live there, free from the hegemony of Narfell, but all will be revealed in time.
I am resurrecting this scroll as I am looking for information about Mettledale and Spearsmouth Dale. Specifically, the towns in those areas: one in Spearsmouth Dale and three in Mettledale. After an exhaustive search (which didn't take all that long), I uncovered nothing but this listing, and another one in some Ed questions from 2006, which was a passing mention. Do you have any more information that you've put together about the towns and environs of Mettledale and Spearsmouth Dale? I am cleaning up little bits of odds and ends before I start my next sandbox campaign in a few months, and I want to get every little thing accounted for to the greatest degree possible.
Thank you as always.
Best regards,
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 22:23:45
Ah, but the great thing about this site is that you can witness Realmslore being created before your very eyes (witness above). |
| ode904 |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 22:17:53
Oh, there's quite long article in Wikipedia. I have written some random things in Wikipedia too, but it's good thing if there are people eager enough to write about Forgotten Realms to Wikipedia. Maybe one day we can search Wikipedia about any Forgotten Realms things :D |
| Faraer |
Posted - 20 Apr 2006 : 20:16:44
Right, I'm sure the dragons had something to do with it. There are many ways to make sense of the extant references, and actually I wouldn't want this history developed in print without extremely wide thought given to it: for instance, the events that prompted the -200 migration (some kind of internal conflict? who were the pioneer leaders? etc.) could provide further history and plot hooks in both the Dales and Impiltur. Speaking of waves of immigration, we have the founding of Dordrien and possibly Teshar. The early history of the Dalelands after their formal founding is also sketchy, including some completely unknown Dales -- must finish off my timeline! |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 20 Apr 2006 : 02:48:04
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Sigh, I'd forgotten how much of this made it into print in Races of Faerûn and was working from the FRCS and other sources I had slightly closer to hand. So George, I think you're saying the statement (RoF p. 85) that in -255 the Jhaamdathan refugees 'set out to colonize lands that would later become known as Impiltur, Thesk, and the Vast' supercedes the FRCS's 'head north and settle the lands of present-day Cormyr, Sembia, the Dalelands, and a portion of the Vast' (p. 268), so that the latter process takes place in two separate movements including the -200 'cross the Dragon Reach' entry? Because as written in the FRCS, the Dales are indeed settled twice. What reason do you suggest for why the Jhaamdathans avoid the borders of Cormanthor in the first emigration? Then, RoF p. 85 dates the westward migration ('cross the Dragon Reach') to 1 DR, not -200.
Ignoring the latter point, even if the main settlement of the Dales is c.-200, might there not have been lesser waves of migration too, such as on the fall of Jhaamdath and accompanying the later human settlement of the Vast?
Okay here are my thoughts - and they are just that. First, we have to look at the Dalelands as they appeared way back then. Extrapolate backward from the "Year of the Tusk" (112 DR) map in the Ol' Grey Box.
Seemingly, the only area available for colonization is modern-day Sembia, and a coastal strip at that. The elves are strong in Cormanthor. The dragons rule just about everywhere else. Significant changes in the status quo occur in -206 when the dragon Venominhandar is supposedly slain and in -205 DR when the elves under Iliphar Nelnueve take over the forests of modern Cormyr. Basically, it's clear the dragons are on the wane.
The references to settlement of the Dalelands has always been specific that the settlers crossed the Dragon Reach (i.e. from the area where Procampur is now to the Sembian coast). Impiltur isn't founded till -72 DR. The question is, why didn't the Jhaamdathans hop directly across the Inner Sea to the Sembian coast as Chondath later did when it established its colony cities (Chancelgaunt et al)? My thinking is that the simple reason was that this was still uncharted territory (save for the elves). Real wilderness, unmapped, unknown and considered dangerous - especially considering the rapacious dragon population of the area (the Thunder Peaks are famous for their large number of wyrms and the Dragonmere obviously got its name for a reason). In contrast, the lands of the Easting Reach were more civilized, had a known human population (even if they were demon-worshippers), and allowed settlers to try and establish holds on the edges of civilization, but with some security. Note also that Prosekampalar is founded in -153 DR by dwarves, but obviously with a large human population. It would have existed as some sort of settlement before besoming a full-fledged city and is a natural 'jumping off' point for settlement into the Dales.
At the time of Jhaamdath's fall, Westgate is in hands of the vampire king Orlak. It would have been a pretty nasty place to live - and likely not a vibrant, progressive, 'happening' place which would promote exploration, colonization etc., unlike Proeskampalar noted above.
So basically, I think the barriers to a hop north by Jhaamdathan refugees, rather than a hop northeast and then west, was that such a hop north was considered to be a huge leap into the unknown, fraught with danger and with no support or back-up if things went awry. That's why I think they went to the Easting Reach first, and then hopped west to the Dalelands/Sembia.
Once a civilized foothold had been made in the Sembia/Dalelands region, that's when I think the FRCS and Grand Tour migration pattern (i.e. straight from the Vilhon) occurred.
-- George Krashos
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| Faraer |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 15:12:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, not this again.
Yup. I thought everyone knew Cormyr is the land of gnomes and Lantan is based on France. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 15:10:53
Sigh, I'd forgotten how much of this made it into print in Races of Faerûn and was working from the FRCS and other sources I had slightly closer to hand. So George, I think you're saying the statement (RoF p. 85) that in -255 the Jhaamdathan refugees 'set out to colonize lands that would later become known as Impiltur, Thesk, and the Vast' supercedes the FRCS's 'head north and settle the lands of present-day Cormyr, Sembia, the Dalelands, and a portion of the Vast' (p. 268), so that the latter process takes place in two separate movements including the -200 'cross the Dragon Reach' entry? Because as written in the FRCS, the Dales are indeed settled twice. What reason do you suggest for why the Jhaamdathans avoid the borders of Cormanthor in the first emigration? Then, RoF p. 85 dates the westward migration ('cross the Dragon Reach') to 1 DR, not -200.
Ignoring the latter point, even if the main settlement of the Dales is c.-200, might there not have been lesser waves of migration too, such as on the fall of Jhaamdath and accompanying the later human settlement of the Vast? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 04:46:28
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yes, but it's still more complex and a little uncertain.
–255: The first refugees from Jhaamdath, who settle the northern Inner Sea from Cormyr east to the Vast
–200: Those who cross the Dragon Reach. Are these southerners who two generations earlier settled the Vast and perhaps the Easting Reach, or are they those from Impiltur and Damara mentioned in the 1987 and 1993 boxed sets' entries for 'Dalelands'? If the former, the Impilturians and Damarans may be a third, undated wave -- the wording of that text suggests they arrive closer to the raising of the Standing Stone.
I think I must have dismissed the 'Dalesfolk from the Great Dale' idea as a hasty thing Jeff Grubb jotted down in the middle of doing something else, based on the shared 'dale'.
Faraer, keep in mind the dates you are talking about. There are no Impilturians or Damarans in -250 DR or -200 DR. What the reference re "Impilturians and Damarans" is lacking is a 'present-day' in front of it. Basically, the settlers that became the first Dalefolk were from the Easting Reach region: present-day Thesk and Impiltur for the most part. Most would have been of native Narfelli stock, some would have been actual citizens of Narfell. The immigrants from Jhaamdath either stayed to mingle with the Nar population (thereby creating the Damaran racial grouping) or moved west to the Dalelands. As such, it's unlikely that there were one, two or three waves of immigration. The human population of the Dalelands (and here I'm talking about the eastern coastal dales) was kicked off in -200 DR and likely continued on for over three centuries. I'm thinking it had no discernable "waves" - just a starting point and a general trailing off period.
-- George Krashos
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| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 01:58:13
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
"[Lantan] is the land of the Gnomes."
Oh, not this again. Yes, there are gnomes... but despite all the gnomish-ness... Lantan still has a notable human presence. The tinker-like aspect of the gnomes were the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared (in the form of a gnome) on the island during the Time of Troubles.
I assume you've altered this already Faraer?
quote:
"[Cormyr] is the epitome of medieval Europe, and particularly France."
And for this... Ed and other FR game designers and authors have all repeatedly said that Faerun is mostly not based on -- or rather similiar to -- Earth cultures, except for the parts that TSR added on.
That needs to be corrected as well.
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| Faraer |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 01:19:45
Yes, but it's still more complex and a little uncertain.
–255: The first refugees from Jhaamdath, who settle the northern Inner Sea from Cormyr east to the Vast
–200: Those who cross the Dragon Reach. Are these southerners who two generations earlier settled the Vast and perhaps the Easting Reach, or are they those from Impiltur and Damara mentioned in the 1987 and 1993 boxed sets' entries for 'Dalelands'? If the former, the Impilturians and Damarans may be a third, undated wave -- the wording of that text suggests they arrive closer to the raising of the Standing Stone.
I think I must have dismissed the 'Dalesfolk from the Great Dale' idea as a hasty thing Jeff Grubb jotted down in the middle of doing something else, based on the shared 'dale'. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 00:44:48
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
V. interesting, and I confess partly new to me, George. So we need a somewhat longer summary if it's going to be accurate.
Faraer, I wouldn't use my musings in any Wikipedia entry. They are just that - musings - and have no more merit than those of any other FR fan out there. Stick with what is in the published products for now, and we'll deal with stuff like this in due course as opportunities present themselves.
-- George Krashos
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 20:31:01
Alwys good to learn new Lore *sighs*
FR commonors are not the same as peasants, they are educated, literate, though do tend to still be low economic class. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 20:26:08
"[Lantan] is the land of the Gnomes."
"[Cormyr] is the epitome of medieval Europe, and particularly France."
Didn't ya know? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 16:08:15
V. interesting, and I confess partly new to me, George. So we need a somewhat longer summary if it's going to be accurate. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 06:35:16
Oh, I know, and you're right about the LEoF details. It gave you the opportunity to put those notes to good "official" use.
Still, I'd rather see you hold onto those Narfell and Raumathar notes and "have" the potential to drop them in the Realmslore at some point, even if they're only minor tidbits mentioned here and there. Or, as you said... "in case something pops up".
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 06:19:50
Don't get too excited, Sage - this current work is all for "fun". But I want to be ready in case something pops up. Imagine how the LEoF chapters "The Old North" and "The High Forest" would have read if I hadn't organised my North Timeline in time ...
-- George Krashos
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| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 02:26:58
Let us hope then, that we have the oppportunity to see that particular train stop at a future Realmslore sourcebook station  .
I know many of us, myself included, have clamored for more on Narfell and to see its further development in the Realmslore. If you've been given the chance George... then I hope we get to see it published in some manner.
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 02:21:23
Ahh Narfell always gets bad press. It's not their fault that they got caught in the crosshairs of Orcus as prime manipulation material. And it may have not gone much further than the first Nentyarch and his Crown of Narfell had it not been for them stumbling across ... well, that would be telling  All I can say is that a FR author pinging me about the region recently set off a most delightful train of thought that has solved one of my biggest "issues" re Narfell. Now even the elves are falling into place. All good.
-- George Krashos
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 01:01:04
Only a lawyer can use a phrase like, "that big fiend-loving empire of joy" and really mean it!
(just kidding George) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 00:56:18
Well, Great Dale today is very different from Great Dale in -200 DR which is when the Dalefolk came across the Reach. The Chondathans of Jhaamdath originally settled the lands of the Easting Reach (which would include the Great Dale) and then moved across to the Dalelands. Why they did such two large hops in such a short space of time (-250 or so for the first and -200 for the second) can be summarized in one word: Narfell. Narfell, that big fiend-loving empire of joy, held sway in the region and hence probably didn't do much for settlement. I'm working on tidying up the history of the East (and making fair progress of late) and I can tell you that there are reasons why settlers could come to the environs of Thesk and the Great Dale (and by Great Dale in this instance we mean places like Mettledale and Spearsmouth Dale, not Bezentil and other settlements inside the woodlands) and live there, free from the hegemony of Narfell, but all will be revealed in time. Of course, that didn't stop Narfell unleashing fiends on these settled areas time and time again - so it's no wonder they left for 'safer' areas like the Dalelands. It was only after -150 DR and the fall of Narfell that major, long-term settlement of the lands of the Easting Reach could proceed.
-- George Krashos
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| Arivia |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 00:31:24
Good, but make sure to link to the Jhaamdath, Vilhon Reach, and Great Dale articles with [[Jhaamdath]], for example. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 00:25:36
Aha.
How about 'Like other folk of the northern Dragon Reach lands, the Dalesfolk are descended from humans of Jhaamdath and other nations of the Vilhon Reach, though some believe they originally came from the Great Dale.'?
Ooog. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 00:14:35
Page 119 of a Grand Tour of the Realms from the 2e Campaign Setting box set. |
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