| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2006 : 23:20:24
I was thinking about doing a little project for fun (writing a short story perhaps). However, the purpose of the short story would be to reveal some of the history that is just boring in a textbook but would be very interesting to have been around or "see" in a story form. Primarily, I was thinking about the formation of Thay and all the little tidbits dropped in various places about who did what and what families and people were around. I've gathered some canon lore on some NPC's and done a little guesswork about where they probably came from. I'm wondering if anyone else might have possibly more information (George Krashos in particular may have seen something as he seems interested in surrounding areas such as Impiltur and Thesk)
Velsharoon - Its noted in Canon lore that he was a renegade red wizard. Its also noted in Canon lore that he attacked an archmage in Halruaa prior to the red wizards being formed. There are hints that members who led the uprising of the red wizards were from Halruaa.
Guesswork: Thus, taking this a step further, I believe Velsharoon was a Halruuaan mage. He was part of the formation of a group known as the red wizards in Halruaa. He got in a fight with an archmage of Halruaa (probably over research that he shouldn't have done). He then got involved with some Mulhorandi mages who would found Thay. During the falling out period while the red wizards were establishing zulkir rulership, it was noted that he wasn't a Mulan, and he got bypassed as the first Zulkir of Necromancy. Thus, his turning renegade red wizard (i.e. he's a red wizard, but not a Thayan loyalist).
Thayd - rebellious leader long ago in Mulhorand who tried to have a mage uprising that was squashed (started uprising in -1087, executed in
-1081). Prophesies that Mulhorand and Unther will never be as great again. Orcgate opens 5 years later in Thay.
Guesswork: What I'm wondering is this.... was Ythazz Buvaar around then? Was he a young rebel during this uprising long ago? Were the remnants of these rebels involved in the opening of the Orcgates?
Ythazz Buvaar (sp?) - led the uprising in Delhumide. Was also a red wizard and one of the first Zulkirs. He is now a demi-lich.
Guesswork: Ok, he's a demi-lich now hidden in Bezantur's crypts. So, therefore he was a lich for a LONG time (supposed to be how it works). He remembered Thayd and his uprising even though it occurred in -1087 DR (about 2000 years before the formation of Thay) and in rememberance named the country after Thayd (assuming he chose the name). Or maybe even he is Thayd and when they beheaded him he became a lich? Narfell started growing up after the fall of Thayd and the orcgate wars.... did he go there and lend his arcane knowledge to the Narfellians? Were his own studies in demonology a founding stone on their own studies (or vice versa)? When Narfell fell, did he perhaps head on down to Halruaa and recruit Velsharoon?
Jorgmacdon Odesseiron (assuming his last name based on fact that Odesseiron family was involved in Eltab's summoning and Jorgmacdon performed the ritual) - Mulhorandi conjurer. Summoned Eltab.
Guesswork: Did he learn of Eltab by studying "ancient" Narfellian rituals while working with Ythazz Buvaar? Were his studies were part of what caused all the ruckus and the war, as Mulhorand believed that studying the arts of Narfell would just lead to Eltab returning?
Shevas Tam - father of Szass Tam, but still only the 2nd zulkir of necromancy
Guesswork: ok, its said there's only been 3 people to hold the seat of the house of Tam. Obviously, the first was Shevas Tam's father. Do we have his name anywhere mentioned? Was his father the first Zulkir of Necromancy?
Nyressa Flass - Vampire Zulkir, lived for 300 years, killed finally by a ton of fireballs and an oaken stake.
Guesswork: Obviously, she was one of the founders of the Flass dynasty, from which the first Princess of Thay springs. Anyone ever see any further information about her (like when she was killed)? Wondering if she became a vampire before or after becoming a Zulkir. Also, wondering if she was one of the first Zulkirs? Being 300 years old makes it a distinct possibility. Not sure what to make of this one, but there's definitely a story here probably buried in references in other products. |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 26 May 2007 : 19:19:45
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
From FA1 Halls of the High King, p.64;
"Velsharoon, sometimes called "the Vaunted," (though not to his face), the renegade archmage of Thay, and one of the most powerful archmages currently active in the Realms, has a-hunting gone.
(snip)
I didn't see this previously, but having seen it -- Thank you, Aja!
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 10:00:29
>>Some among them say they should be seeking to hire an archmage to determine if Delzimmer >>stands endangered by whatever is bringing Kraul repeatedly back to life.
>>Many Delzmaer are more afraid of the inevitable group of Red Wizards and other beings of >>power who will probably soon descend on Delzimmer to try to seize the raising magic that >>rides Antholo Kraul and take it for their own. Who knows who they'll slay -- or magically >>transform and enslave, as crawling worms or worse -- in the process?
Interesting... a blessing from the lord of necromancy for past aid perhaps (or simply to razz others, maybe). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 09:53:20
>>The Claunkrar Coster (hitherto known only for their vigilant guarding of way caravans >>between the Tashalar and the lands about the Golden Water, via Delzimmer and Luiren) are >>said to be busily at work creating the Crawling Treasure.
>>The Treasure is nothing less than an ever-expanding network of portals linking key sites in >>Faerūn -- or rather, secluded hollows and lookout heights near important trade route >>waymoots and wealthy cities. By means of these magical routes the Claunkrar can move small, >>valuable cargoes (coffers of gems, distinctive stolen property, individual kidnap captives, >>and the like) swiftly across Faerūn. Once they gain a property in a city or trade town, >>they establish a cellar or indoor chamber portal therein to allow coster members to arrive >>and depart unseen -- and there are even whispers that they're growing bold enough to create >>portals on the roofs and in disused back stairs of palaces.
Worth noting. Possible trade issues with kidnap victims and the Jathlet families slave trade.
I've spared a glance or three in the direction of the Claunkrar -- enough to tell me that some truth lies behind these tales, and I'll explore them more with ye anon. I can say thus far that the Claunkrar are hiring guards to watch over some of their portals, starting to keep secrets (and build passwords and the like into portal operations), and that they're quietly hiring adventurers, brigands, and monsters -- shapechangers in particular -- to join their ranks. It's too early to say who's behind these schemes, or if this represents an ambitious new force in the ever-active, always-foolish "road to seizing power over all Faerūn" game -- but my ear shall be to the doorposts on this one.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 09:48:29
hmmmm, or another take on the previous.... Velsharoon Jathlet. Perhaps Halder of Delzimmer is from another family in competition with the Jathlet family. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 09:33:37
>>Jathlets own any number of small trading companies working the Tashalar ports, and there >>are persistent rumors that the family ranks include at least one necromancer skilled in >>magic that can knit body parts together and alter human physiques and faces enough to hide >>someone permanently. Enemies of the Jathlets claim these abilities are used to forever trap >>important persons (kidnapped by the Jathlets) into slavery.
Not conclusive, but from Elminster's Satraps of Delzimmer part 2 article. Perhaps Halder Jathlet crossed lines with Velsharoon by stealing a necromantic spell of facial modification (or vice versa)?
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| Thauramarth |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 21:04:02
This is not canon, but it is linked (pun intended) to Thayd, three posts to the Realm-L list which mention Thayd, by H MArc Bower, end of April 2004:
Part I: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0404d&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=8670
Part II: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0404d&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=8916
Part III: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0404d&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=9047
I liked these posts, and they inspired me to create an adventure hook that brought Thayd back into the Realms. Long and short of it: just before he was executed, the priesthood of Set took one of Thayd's Eyes, Set worked it with magic, and made it the stone in a ring which they called the Thaydeye. SEt used Thayd's residue to look for and master Imaskari magic, which he used in his coup against Osiris. The Thaydeye was lost when Set's tower was plundered, and passed through several hands until it came in the hands of a modern-day mage who used the "eye" as the basis for a clone spell to bring Thayd back to life. I wrote the history of that item somewhere. Should look it up one of these days. It was fun writing it up, even though I never really used it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 20:42:38
you da man, Eric. Darn proxy at work blocking me from downloading here, but definitely gonna look there when I get home. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 18:38:13
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, Halder of Delzimmer.... need to find Delzimmer and find more info there.
Delzimmer is down by the Great Rift. Look here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/archive.asp?x=fr/es,3
Parts #35 - #47.
--Eric |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 17:01:10
>>He is a 29th level wizard specializing in necromancy, having >>developed many unique spells that allow him to control liches and >>vampires in his servitude, use many undead powers (including >>gaseous form, energy drain, chill touch, and flight) while still >>alive, and so on.
Ok, more confirmation that he was mortal.
>>Velsharoon's many enemies (notably the ruling Red Wizards and the >>archmages Halder of Delzimmer, Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa, The Simbul >>of Aglarond, and Elminster of Shadowdale)
Ok, Halder of Delzimmer.... need to find Delzimmer and find more info there.
Also, yes, his tower terrible was in soorenar. That's in Chessenta and they had a conflict with Luthcheq because it was a city who used militant wizards..... why does everything always bring me back to Luthcheq somehow. |
| AJA |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 10:04:14
From FA1 Halls of the High King, p.64;
"Velsharoon, sometimes called "the Vaunted," (though not to his face), the renegade archmage of Thay, and one of the most powerful archmages currently active in the Realms, has a-hunting gone.
A certain magical process discovered in a very old ruin, somewhere in the Plains of Purple Dust, north of Rauruin, requires a potion containing the blood of adventurers -- so Velsharoon is seeking adventurers. It is whispered in Soorenar (where Velsharoon has one of his abodes, the Tower Terrible) that the magical process that the archmage is interested in gives the successful follower demi-godhood and attendant great powers!
Velsharoon's many enemies (notably the ruling Red Wizards and the archmages Halder of Delzimmer, Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa, The Simbul of Aglarond, and Elminster of Shadowdale) are said to be concerned for the safety and stability of the Realms (and their own persons) if Velsharoon achieves his goal."
"DM's Note: ....Velsharoon is powerful enough at present! He is a 29th level wizard specializing in necromancy, having developed many unique spells that allow him to control liches and vampires in his servitude, use many undead powers (including gaseous form, energy drain, chill touch, and flight) while still alive, and so on.
Despite his great powers, Velsharoon does not like to fight opponents directly. He prefers to remain hidden, employing undead, summoned servant creatures, and mercinary agents to do his work."
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 23:06:12
>>Why would he become a lich after becoming a god? Most liches go the undead route so they >>can stick around a while longer -- deities don't have that concern.
>>And I'm not sure there's enough information either way to support Velsharoon as having >>been Halruaan.
No, not he became a lich after becoming a god. Its been established (or so I've read) that Velsharoon was a mortal being when he was trying to research becoming a deity. However, he is portrayed as being a lich. He is also referenced as having the alias of Mellifleur. Mellifleur was a being who ascended to godhood by performing the ritual to becoming a lich in a special way that stole divine power from Bane long ago (i.e. not recently). Velsharoon is a recently ascended deity who rose up through a special ritual that first turned him into a lich and then ascended him into divine status.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 22:58:31
>>"As the millennia neared a close in -1087 DR, so did Mulhorand and >>Unther's first ages of empire, when Theurgist Adept Thayd, the >>last surviving apprentice of the Imaksari wizards,
>>(from "The Alabaster Staff - A History of Unther"
Thank you. I knew there would be other resources in canon referencing some of this. Ok, so Thayd was Imaskari as established in canon (because I don't see the Imaskari training a Mulan). However, he himself ends up taking up with Mulan people out of necessity, possibly in hopes of striking back against the deities who helped overthrow his culture. Still doesn't inhibit Ythazz Buvarr from being from around that timeframe. It does kind of put a whirl against Ythazz actually BEING Thayd (because the red wizards who end up ruling are racists for the Mulan people). Also, Thayd having been an Imaskari opens up the idea that he could have taught Ythazz things about summoning beings and portals (Imaskari specialties), which even more opens up the idea of Ythazz helping open the orcgate and/or going to Narfell and training their demon-summoners.
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| Thauramarth |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 21:40:39
Thayd was Imaskari in origin -
"As the millennia neared a close in -1087 DR, so did Mulhorand and Unther's first ages of empire, when Theurgist Adept Thayd, the last surviving apprentice of the Imaksari wizards, led most of the wizards of Mulhorand and Unther in rebellion against the Mulan gods. By -1081 DR, Thayd and his conspirators were defeated. Thayd was executed, but he prophesied that Mulhorand and Unther would decline never to be great again."
(from "The Alabaster Staff - A History of Unther" by Thomas M. Costa, on the WotC Website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/unther ).
I am relatively certain that the reference dates from a 2nd Edition sourcebook, but I cannot remember which one.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 17:31:03
Why would he become a lich after becoming a god? Most liches go the undead route so they can stick around a while longer -- deities don't have that concern.
And I'm not sure there's enough information either way to support Velsharoon as having been Halruaan.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Feb 2006 : 14:15:46
>I think you're missing a key reference with regards to Velsharoon (where he was first >mentioned). (Maybe it's just not helpful.) It appeared in Polyhedron in an Elminster's >Everwinking Eye (a LONG time ago) as an unrelated "Current Clack" at the end of one of >the articles. I think (not sure) that entry was repeated in FA1 - Halls of the High King. >This is basically where we learn that Velsharoon was a mortal Red Wizard and this is the >reference I built the Powers & Pantheons write-up of Velsharoon off of.
I've heard of this one, but I've never seen its exact statement (if you could find, I don't have the product... I'd appreciate it... or if you know where I can download pdf of it). I had heard of it in the past though, and from it I'm concluding that Velsharoon was not a lich until he became a god (much like Mellifleur). Therefore, based on your reference of Alias in P&P (great btw), I like the assumption that he actually performed a ritual with Mellifleur's phylactery to become a lich and steal this being's power. However, now you have two life forces tied to a single phylactery, and maybe there's some kind of unseen "war" going on between the two. To outsiders it might seem he's playing multiple sides against one another....
In the story I'd like to write though, it is seen through the eyes of Velsharoon musing over the past. However, maybe we also learn of the past history of Ythazz Buvarr while old Velsharoon burrows through the demi-lich's memories (or maybe he did this while he was alive somehow and this is how he learned of Mellifleur's phylactery in the first place.... after all, if Ythazz Buvarr was a lich, he likely knew of the lord of liches.... or maybe even with his age... maybe just maybe Ythazz KNEW Mellifleur before he became a lich... after all, Mellifleur was around when Bane was, so he can't be too old <in the grand history of things>).
I really think there's a lot of little droplets people put out there that really need some gathering together... and maybe a story is the way to do it. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 15:48:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Sorry Eric, I got a bad habit of not documenting. Yeah, this is the notes where I gathered certain things.
Thanks. That gives me a lot to work with.
I think you're missing a key reference with regards to Velsharoon (where he was first mentioned). (Maybe it's just not helpful.) It appeared in Polyhedron in an Elminster's Everwinking Eye (a LONG time ago) as an unrelated "Current Clack" at the end of one of the articles. I think (not sure) that entry was repeated in FA1 - Halls of the High King. This is basically where we learn that Velsharoon was a mortal Red Wizard and this is the reference I built the Powers & Pantheons write-up of Velsharoon off of.
More later,
--Eric |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 15:40:26
Sorry Eric, I got a bad habit of not documenting. Yeah, this is the notes where I gathered certain things. I really have a niggling suspicion that I've seen Nyressa Flass somewhere else... but maybe I'm thinking of the vampire from the Twisted Rune?
From the original Shining South.
"Halruaa also suffered through a civil war about five centuries ago. A number of mages advocated beginning new experiments in magic, ones which even the Netheril didn't approve of. The renegades were driven from the region. The surviving renegades left to found the land of Thay, or so it is said in Halruaa"
From the secrets of the sages mailer which first introduced Halruaa
"Thay's current regime is said by some to have been founded by renegade Halruan mages."
Also, in the timeline for the 3e Shining South, there is a mention in the timeline of a person by the name of Velsharoon (and if its the "infamous" Velsharoon, he was a noted renegade Thayan wizard prior to becoming the deity of necromancy)facing off against a powerful Halruaan wizard.
"827 DR ( Year of the Sacrificed Fortune) The wizard Omm Hlandrar of Halruaa engages a Red Wizard named Velsharoon in a spectacular magicalbattle in the skies over the Shaar. The contest ends in a draw."
NOTE: in this year, Thay does not exist yet.
From Old Empires we learn of Thayd
"Two events brought the first great Age to an end. One was the rebellion of the archmage Thayd (after whom the later-day Red Wizards named their kingdom), who challenged the might of the god-kings, along with that of many of the most powerful wizards of Mulhorand and Unther. Thayd.s goal was to overthrow the god-kings and unite the empires into a single grand Overempire that would be able to achieve limitless dominion over the Realms. After much destruction, the god-kings triumphed and the wizards were slain. After that time, in Mulhorand, the god-kings placed magic under their strict control, and created a bureaucracy of priests to maintain its control. Mulhorand became
the bureaucratic theocracy that it remains to this day.
The people of Mulhorand and Unther might have rebuilt their losses, except for the Orcgate Wars. Five years after the deaths of the wizards, a huge gateway opened in southwestern Thay. It was a gateway from a world of orcs. Millions of orcs had come from another world, seeking a new place to live. They immediately clashed with the empires of Mulhorand and Unther, and overran their northern and western possessions. The god-kings themselves stirred into battle, and orc-shamans summoned their pantheon in response. Gods died, cities were laid waste, and entire regions were devastated. In the end, the orcs were either slaughtered or driven into the far north, but the holds of Mulhorand and Unther on their far-flung provinces were broken, and the two empires dwindled. The god-kings withdrew into their towers, creating continually reincarnating incarnations to lead their cities. Thus the First Empires of Mulhorand and Unther ended.
The lands lost by the southern empires were quickly retaken, but not by them. Instead, two new powers rose to prominence after the Orcgate Wars, the powers of Narfell and Raumathar. These were warlike nations that coalesced out of the migrating northern tribes that were paid to fight as mercenaries in the Orcgate Wars. They had weapons of iron (as opposed to the bronze weapons that Mulhorand and Unther used at the time) and soon developed powerful magic of their own. They quickly subdued large tracts of land, replacing Mulhorandi culture
with their own."
"-1087 DR The Thurgist Adept Thayd rebels, along with most of the wizards in Unther and Mulhorand."
"-1081 DR Thayd and his conspirators defeated. Thayd is executed, but prophesies that Mulhorand and Unther will
never be as great again."
"-1076 DR Orcgate opens."
"-1075 DR First battle of the Orcgate Wars. Orcs overrun many northern settlements, slaying thousands."
From Dreams of the Red Wizards we learn of Jorgmacdon when talking of Eltabbar:
"Mapping the city is a problem because it is built in the form of an immense glyph. This is actually the symbol that keeps the demon prince Eltab imprisoned and available to the Red Wizards. This was a mighty magic devised by Jorgmacdon, the first Zulkir of the School of Conjuration, and his
family is still powerful in the country,even though it has not produced anyone to match him since that time. "
From Dreams of the Red Wizards we also learn of the Odesseiron family, for which I'm just guessing that Jorgmacdon was the member mentioned:
"The Odesseiron: This is an ancient family in Thay, its progenitor was one of the wizards who brought the Demon Prince to this plane and fought off the
invaders from Mulhorand. For the most part, the Odesseirons have been Wizards. Homen Odesseiron, Tharchion of Surthay, is the first to gain status as a Tharchion. He is also somewhat famous as the first person to be a member of four Schools of Magic simultaneously, even though he never officially gained the title of Wizard."
From Spellbound we learn of Ythazz Buvarr and that he is now a demi-lich:
"Modern Thay was founded over four centuries ago by renegade wizards from the empire of Mulhorand. These spellcasters, called the Red Wizards, began as a secret society dedicated to winning independence from the empire and creating a magical realm apart from the godkings. theocracy. In 922, under the leadership of the Red Wizard (and later zulkir) Ythazz Buvaar, they felt secure enough to raise an army and sack the imperial capital of
Delhumide."
"The most powerful resident of the tombs is the ancient Zulkir Ythazz Buvaar, one of the founders of the modem nation of Thay. Unknown to those modem zulkirs who have forgotten Ythazz and his contributions, the zulkir lives on, still clinging to the elaborate throne upon which his embalmed body once sat. He is now a demilich, but his life force is such that he still schemes to return and visit terrible vengeance upon those Thayans who do not honor his memory. Currently he seeks a mortal body to inhabit, and he sends his various minions.vampires, wights, ghosts, and lesser forms of undead. forth to obtain a suitable victim. So far all candidates have proved unworthy, dying of fright or other stresses well before Ythazz can steal their mortal bodies."
From Spellbound we also learn of Nyressa Flass who was a zulkir:
"By Thayan law, a zulkir can only be removed if he or she is destroyed utterly, beyond hope of resurrection or existence as a member of the undead. The best-known example was the infamous .Vampire Zulkir. Nyressa Flass, who lived for over 300 years and was finally .removed. from office with the aid of numerous fireball spells and an oaken stake."
From Dreams of the Red Wizards we learn of Szass Tam's father when speaking of the Long Portage:
"For about a century after Thay became a nation, the Guild of Portagers charged exorbitant rates to haul vessels up the river. Then the Wizard Shevas
Tam (father of the current Zulkir of the School of Necromancy) was confronted with a demanding chief of the Guild and killed him. Shevas Tam then had his minions slaughter most of the Guild members and Shevas Tam turned them into zombies."
From Dreams of the Red Wizards we also learn that there have only been 3 persons to hold the status as head of his household, and that Tam was born in 1104:
"The Tam: This is one of the more ancient families of Thay, not only in lineage but in age of its membership. Its head, Zulkir Szass Tarn, is only the third person to hold that position under conditions that are explained in the Notable Persons of Thay section of this book. At this point, we can only say that the seat of the Tam family is commonly referred to as .The Necropolis.."
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 00:57:46
I've been working on an "East" timeline for a while now. I've given a few dates re Szass, Nyressa and Velsharoon - although my musings haven't been updated for the 3E Shining South product which notes the fact that the cabal of wizards known as the Red Wizards pre-dated the formation of Thay. I'll go back and have a look at my collected lore and see if there is anything to add.
-- George Krashos
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| ericlboyd |
Posted - 08 Feb 2006 : 00:49:35
Can you give some of the references you're using? (In particular, I don't remember where the references to the father Szass Tam and Nyressa Flam come from off the top of my head.)
--Eric |
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