| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 24 Oct 2005 : 14:19:21
I'm in the process of learning more about the "Empires of the Sands", namely, Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan. Looking at the source material I can see that there are clearly real world Arab cultural inspirations there.
I realize this discussion opens a larger can of worms about how the Forgotten Realms draws so heavily from real world historical cultures and mythologies. There advantages and disadvantages to that. But for many regions in the Realms there's no mistaking that they are heavily derivative from real world sources. I realize the parallels with real world cultures of the past are intended as a point of departure, but I just want to make sure I understand that foundation correctly.
The 3rd Ed. Net Compendium submits the following parallels:
Amn
Cultural Reference: Spain and Portugal
Names: Spanish and Portugese
Tethyr
Cultural Reference: North Africa
Names: Arabian
Calimshan
Cultural Reference: Iranian Sultantate
Names: Iranian or Turkish
But as I look over Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Sands, I think the Net Compendium missed the mark for two of these regions.
For Athkatla at least, the mention of pashas, emirs, and the like is distinctly Turkish. Djin are certainly inspired by Arab mythology. The illustrations in Lands of Intrigue: Amn show a turbanned folk, sitting on rugs and pillows.
And Athkatla strikes me as having a fairly strong parallel with Constantinople during the Byzantine era. Constantinople was situated at the crossroads of the Romanized/European and Arab worlds; and similarly Athkatla, seems a mixture of Faerunian and Calishite influences--though more strongly influended by Calimshan.
Anyway, so far Amn strikes me as derivative of Turkey, not Spain/Portugal.
Tethyr, on the other hand, in contrast does feel much more like Spain, with its European-styled monarchy and aristrocracy. I'm not seeing any Calishite (i.e., pseudo-Persian) influence to speak of. When I read about Tethyr I'm having a hard time distinguishing it from any Heartlands (pseudo-European) region. So I could see this region as having stronger parallels with Spain--i.e., it seems much more like a northern of central European power during the Renaissance.
For Tethyr, I do not see any parallel at all with North African Arab culture. When I think "North Africa/Arabian" I'm immediately put in mind of Morocco, or perhaps Saudi Arabia. And I don't see any of such cultural influence at all so far as I look over Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr
Calimshan seems unambiguously derivative of Persia. Pashas, sultans, djinni, flying carpets, the whole nine. So there I think the Net Compendium got it right.
Anyway, what do you think? Are the parallels I'm making above roughly accurate? Any history buffs out there that can correct any mistaken impressions I may have?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 00:55:50
Learned Scribe Lemernis,
Heck, I always felt Tethyr was much more French in its cultural traits than Spanish.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
I'm in the process of learning more about the "Empires of the Sands", namely, Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan. Looking at the source material I can see that there are clearly real world Arab cultural inspirations there.
I realize this discussion opens a larger can of worms about how the Forgotten Realms draws so heavily from real world historical cultures and mythologies. There advantages and disadvantages to that. But for many regions in the Realms there's no mistaking that they are heavily derivative from real world sources. I realize the parallels with real world cultures of the past are intended as a point of departure, but I just want to make sure I understand that foundation correctly.
The 3rd Ed. Net Compendium submits the following parallels:
Amn
Cultural Reference: Spain and Portugal
Names: Spanish and Portugese
Tethyr
Cultural Reference: North Africa
Names: Arabian
Calimshan
Cultural Reference: Iranian Sultantate
Names: Iranian or Turkish
But as I look over Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Sands, I think the Net Compendium missed the mark for two of these regions.
For Athkatla at least, the mention of pashas, emirs, and the like is distinctly Turkish. Djin are certainly inspired by Arab mythology. The illustrations in Lands of Intrigue: Amn show a turbanned folk, sitting on rugs and pillows.
And Athkatla strikes me as having a fairly strong parallel with Constantinople during the Byzantine era. Constantinople was situated at the crossroads of the Romanized/European and Arab worlds; and similarly Athkatla, seems a mixture of Faerunian and Calishite influences--though more strongly influended by Calimshan.
Anyway, so far Amn strikes me as derivative of Turkey, not Spain/Portugal.
Tethyr, on the other hand, in contrast does feel much more like Spain, with its European-styled monarchy and aristrocracy. I'm not seeing any Calishite (i.e., pseudo-Persian) influence to speak of. When I read about Tethyr I'm having a hard time distinguishing it from any Heartlands (pseudo-European) region. So I could see this region as having stronger parallels with Spain--i.e., it seems much more like a northern of central European power during the Renaissance.
For Tethyr, I do not see any parallel at all with North African Arab culture. When I think "North Africa/Arabian" I'm immediately put in mind of Morocco, or perhaps Saudi Arabia. And I don't see any of such cultural influence at all so far as I look over Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr
Calimshan seems unambiguously derivative of Persia. Pashas, sultans, djinni, flying carpets, the whole nine. So there I think the Net Compendium got it right.
Anyway, what do you think? Are the parallels I'm making above roughly accurate? Any history buffs out there that can correct any mistaken impressions I may have?
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Feb 2018 : 11:39:36
And i have a realms crack dependancy. When is it gen con time, i need my fix. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 13 Feb 2018 : 09:13:41
I have a hard drive full of Realms crack.
George Krashos |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 15:54:06
Krashos always has the hookups lol |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 13:29:12
Ooh and me pretty please George, i havent seen this scroll before i dont think. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 13:11:53
quote:
Originally posted by DM_Djinn
Hello folks! So, I'm a few years late to the game but I've been using the Lands of Intrigue Boxed Set for my campaign for years now.
I'm reading through all the replies here and it is so helpful to learn how other DMs used this info for their portrayals!
I have to ask, someone linked a Lands of Intrigue web expansion by WotC, but the link went dead (as did all those other wotc links).
Does anyone have a copy of this free web enhancement that they could share?
There were two "web enhancements". A preview of LOI that contained some material that was subsequently edited out and a timeline that was handed out at GEN-CON. PM me your e-mail address and I'll send them through to you.
-- George Krashos |
| DM_Djinn |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 01:04:11
Hello folks! So, I'm a few years late to the game but I've been using the Lands of Intrigue Boxed Set for my campaign for years now.
I'm reading through all the replies here and it is so helpful to learn how other DMs used this info for their portrayals!
I have to ask, someone linked a Lands of Intrigue web expansion by WotC, but the link went dead (as did all those other wotc links).
Does anyone have a copy of this free web enhancement that they could share? |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 04:04:59
Okay, I see that it is still out there in book form at least. tnx :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 00:55:42
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Anyone mind sharing what info is available re: the Battlescarred Bard...
And unfortunately the Bard isn't detailed in any other resource covering the region. Your best bet is to pick up a copy of Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 00:07:53
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Um, I'm not sure how to get a hold of Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II...
eBay, RPGNow.com, or NobleKnight.com are likely your best bets. Oddly, this one doesn't appear to be available as a pdf. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 23:09:42
Um, I'm not sure how to get a hold of Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II... Anyone mind sharing what info is available re: the Battlescarred Bard and Kalathtyr? If not I'll see if I can get my hands on it some way. (It's not a matter of cost, I'm just assuming that it's no longer in print.) |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 08:02:43
Yep, it's on p.52.
As a quick overview, it's a fishing village of "mold-reeking huts on stilts", and home to two dozen families. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 01:36:03
No, George is right. VGtBGII is pretty much it for sources on Kalathyr.
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 01:10:30
I think Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II has info on this place. If I'm wrong, a plethora of loremasters will be along directly to point you in thw right direction (and make me sheepish at the same time ... )
-- George Krashos
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| Lemernis |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 12:26:01
The FRIA shows a location on the coast of Amn called "Kalathtyr" It's at the mouth of the River Specie, where the nothern slopes of the Small Teeth mountains meet the sea. I can't find any information on this location (including a search of these forums). Anyone know what it is? Where canon material on it may be found? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 16:53:00
Is that what Steven means? Ed is leery of resemblances to Earth precisely because he doesn't want players making assumptions of familiarity and so filling in wrong details.
The lands of the Ffolk as created by Doug Niles are straightforward quasi-Welsh and Irish -- that's where the names ('Caer' etc.) are from. |
| Iliphar1 |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 12:33:00
going back to what cultures seemed to have influenced various FR-countries:
I always imagined the Moonshae Islands to be close to C.S. Lewis' Narnia (even some names are similar, both have a high king, etc.)
Sembia reminds me be a lot of (machiavellian) Italy (with all the mercantile immensily powerful families) |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 14:40:15
Just to echo what Matt observed, Steven refers to these inspirations as 'touchstones' which is really a good term for it. Something you can relate to, that gives you a rough sketch, a point of departure, etc.
Your imagination is going to fill in the gaps with what it knows and can relate to. And that is going to be material that you have seen or experienced somewhere in your life, whether in person, by photos, drawings, films, books, etc. This process is going on all the time anyway in fantasy literature whether you're conscious of it or not. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 19 Jan 2006 : 03:20:27
quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
Speaking of Amn and Tethyr, on the timeline I noticed that two areas seceded willingly from Amn to Tethyr in 1370. This tells me that their cultures are fairly similar for such an event to take place. Anyone know the specifics in this secession?
More than most, but mayhaps not so much recent lore as things may've changed since I've been away. 
And yes, the LOI download provides all the in-print and official answers and details on the secession of Trailstone and Riatavin and environs.
Steven
Who managed to slip a refence re: this very thing into BLACKSTAFF... |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 18 Jan 2006 : 23:31:30
Check out Lands of Intrigue a free download brought to you by Wizards of the Coast.  ...Dear gods, I sound like a sandwichboard-man! |
| Vvornth |
Posted - 18 Jan 2006 : 20:22:15
Speaking of Amn and Tethyr, on the timeline I noticed that two areas seceded willingly from Amn to Tethyr in 1370. This tells me that their cultures are fairly similar for such an event to take place. Anyone know the specifics in this secession? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 18 Jan 2006 : 18:57:53
What Matt and Lemernis note above re: California wine country and Amn works for both Amn & much of Tethyr (at least the south-central parts south of the capital and east of the Omlarandins).
SES |
| Magic Matt |
Posted - 18 Jan 2006 : 01:15:00
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
I'm picturing the climate and terrain as rather like northern California wine country (even down to the Spanish architecture, although here with more of a Moorish-looking influence). Warm and pleasant most of the year, with a cooler rainy season. It sounds much more fertile than the rugged, rocky hills of Iberia, getting back to that parallel with Spain. Anyway, I'm picturing verdant, gently rolling hills, lots of trees but no dense forest, mottled with well-to-do farms (villas?) and quaint villages. Is that about right?
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That's the way I have always seen Amn.
Steven Schend, say's that's it's Moorish Spain / Southern France, (and perhaps it is in culture and style) but reading about Amn I see Napa or Monterey, and Tethyr feels like Santa Barbara!
But then again Provonce or S.W. France or even Tuscany would fit just as well!
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I dunno, I prefer to think of Realms cultures as fantasy cultures in their own right rather than parallels of real world cultures.
I think that you almost have to pull from real life and history to read or understand fantasy. But, only as a bases to understand what the author is creating. A sword is a sword, unless the author states otherwise, then it might be a giant space hamster, ect.
Even J.R.R Tolkien pulled from real peoples and cultures (finnish for his elves [Quenya]),Anglo Saxon for Rohan, and real places (East Anglia and Oxford) for the Shire! But this is just a starting place - a point of refrence.........
MATT
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| Vvornth |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 09:14:08
quote:
Northern Moonshaes and Luskan - culture reference: Vikings (Scandinavian) (FR2/FR5), names: Norwegian, Danish, Swedish
I'd argue this, the way I see it it is the entire old Illuskan empire that was a derivate of real world vikings which can be found in pockets all over the north. Frost Giants quite obviously have stereotypical scandinavian names as well. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:42:44
Aha.
('Not a good of Ed's time', that is, unless he wants to do it.) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:30:42
I believe Kaje is referring to the focus on Crimmor, in DRAGON #334.
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| Faraer |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:20:59
quote:
Originally posted by Smyther
We have no 'modern day' information on Amn, which seems quite an inconsistency, since Amn plays a major role in all trade of Faerun, which effects anything and everything.
On the other hand, the last sourcebook treatment of Amn and Tethyr is more recent than the last sourcebooks (the Volo's Guides and earlier) on every region of the Heartlands.
The more that finite-sized sourcebooks concentrate on catching up with the ongoing timeline, the less space for detail and depth about these places, including already created lore we've waited for decades to see print. I especially don't think it's a good use of Ed's time to update regions according to events he had little to do with.
But I certainly hope to see a new Lands of Intrigue book in due course.
Where have the hints been that Power of Faerūn or Dragon will deal with Amn, by the way? |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 02:01:58
There have been hints that Power of Faerūn will add some detail to Amn, and in addition, this could also have something to do with Ed's Cities of Faerūn-articles in Dragon Magazine (loose conjecture by me). |
| Smyther |
Posted - 15 Jan 2006 : 00:56:34
Since this seems like the place to put it, I would like to ask a question of Amn. I recall hearing that Ed Greenwood would be doing an update for Amn and perhaps other areas, detailing the up-to-date information on what has occured with the wars and such, and their results. We have no 'modern day' information on Amn, which seems quite an inconsistency, since Amn plays a major role in all trade of Faerun, which effects anything and everything. The political situation should have changed in the last five or so game years, and I know I for one would dearly love to see an update. If Ed wasn't doing this (ie false rumor) then has anybody else done this or will be doing this? Perhaps, with the Moonsea book coming out, they will do one for the lands of intrigue as well... |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 29 Oct 2005 : 18:11:29
The following questions pertain to the system of nobility in Amn.
From Lands of Intrigue I have gathered the following:
Amn has a class-based society based on wealth. The greater one's wealth, the higher one's social status.
The society's system of nobility is primarily wealth-based, rather than hereditary.
Some of Amn's mercantile houses have existed for many generations, run by the same family. However, mercantile houses often begin as partnerships or consortiums of lesser merchants, unrelated by blood, seeking to compete with the large established costers. These new enterprises sell shares. Accordingly, some in positions of power in Amn (including the Council of Six and the Shadow Thieves) may have a stake in the fortunes of these ventures. Sometimes new mercantile houses are formed by virtue of arranged marriages. When a mercantile house succeeds, it may establish itself as a merchant family, according to its leader's family name.
The leader of a family run mercantile House may assume the title of 'Lord'. A Lord may pass his title to an heir. However, the title of Lord may also be bought if the price is right.
It is however unclear in Lands of Intrigue which governmental entity officially recognizes a mercantile House and grants the title of Lord.
At the highest level of Amnian government this might ultimately fall under the purview of either the Mesiarch (who ensures that no mercantile house/family forms a monopoly) or the Tessarch, who controls the judiciary and resolves family disputes.
But is there a particular agency of the central government, or a position of some sort, that officially recognizes a house and grants the title of Lord?
In Book One of Lands of Intrigue, for Tethyr there is a list of titles. I see no such list for Amn in Book Two. Does this mean that the only noble title in Amn is 'Lordhsip' of a mercantile House? Which is fundementally decided according to wealth as opposed to bloodline?
Are Guildmasters in Amn commonly referred to by the Calishite term 'pasha'? |
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