| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| royalsage |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 00:01:11
this came to me today and i pondered it for awhile and still nothing. What happens to still born babies and children to young to choose a patron god/goddess. certainly they wouldnt be put on the wall of the faithless. I dont see kelemvor doing this. Being lawful neutral he should see the injustice. so what happens do they go to their parents deity or maybe lathander who has birth in his portfolio. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 20:09:19
Great Reader Darden,
You know, I've heard that quote, but I can't place who said it. I'll have to go research that! :)
Best regards,
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 19:46:07
Does it go "he who speaks most and last has said least most often" or some other way? |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 18:44:33
Great Reader Darden,
It's great to see you replying in this scroll. I hope the day is treating you well!
Best regards,
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 18:11:36
Many are the addled who, not realizing their state, prattle until all accept what they say out of sheer terror at facing yet another unrelenting barrage of obtuse "wisdom/knowledge" centered upon a fragile ego which can't be wrong lest they be forced to face their true reality. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 05:38:24
Master Azar,
A good evening to you!
quote:
He is back.
Yes, after a hiatus, I have returned. All manner of insanity work-wise, and life-wise over the last few years, as of course, everyone had I am certain of it.
Best regards,
|
| Azar |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 05:16:09
He is back. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 05:02:54
Great Reader Ravenheart,
A pleasant evening to you! Thanks for relying.
quote:
Yes, yes, you're right. You're quite a genius. It's truly astounding how smart and more knowledgeable you are than all the other scribes here on Candlekeep. Why, we should rename this CPT keep! Congratulations
Oh gods above... while I appreciate the thoughtful comment: moderate intellect guy here, at best, and I'm just trying not to self abuse too much here.
I only felt it right to come on back and simply convey what I discovered by good fortune.
Wrapping up a solid three year debate is a rare and wonderful thing, regardless of the outcome.
Best regards,
|
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 01:21:57
Yes, yes, you're right. You're quite a genius. It's truly astounding how smart and more knowledgeable you are than all the other scribes here on Candlekeep. Why, we should rename this CPT keep! Congratulations! |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 01:17:09
Master Rupert,
Good to hear from you! Thanks for the quick response! :)
quote:
Okay, I'll concede that hunting down family members of foes would be murder. But that's still a far cry from your assertions of tens of thousands of murders, joyfully committed.
Conveniently leaving out all family members in the entire family tree as well as the neigbour's of said people, is a lot of people. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but not your facts. :)
quote:
2) Gosh, a bunch of druids threatening people to keep them from causing widespread death and destruction by blowing up a volcano? How sinister!  You'd think a murderous bunch of druids would be all for that -- maybe they're not so murderous?
That's a misrepresentation, intended or not, of the facts. The druids were not threatening people to keep them from causing widespread death and destruction BY blowing up a volcano, they were going to LET the volcano blow up, against the efforts of the wizard. What Ed clarified was that the druids threatened people to not get involved in things they didn't understand. In taking that choice upon themselves, and murdering Danirro, they became the judge, jury and executioner of a man who was simply trying to stop a Mt. Kolimnis from blowing up.
quote:
3) Seen by murder by others doesn't mean it was murder. We still don't have the circumstances of the situation, but it's logical to assume that if the Enclave felt they needed to wipe out a small community, obviously that community was some sort of threat and wasn't backing down from what they were doing.
LOL........ok Master Rupert. Sure, some people might not see it that way but what Ed said specifically was, "murder by MOST people."
Hmmm...........let's see what that definition means, shall we? :)
Definition of most:
most
adjective
#712;m#333;st
Synonyms of most
1: greatest in quantity, extent, or degree the most ability
2: the majority of most people
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most
Hmmm.......the greatest in quantity, or the majority of most people. Wow, the majority of most people. Huh. That's a lot. Looks like that would be a negative ghost rider, the pattern is full. ;)
quote:
And it's not at all uncommon for the friends and loved ones of a slain person to feel that person was murdered, even if the slain person was the aggressor and the killer was acting in self-defense.
Asked and answered counsel! ;)
quote:
So yeah, we've got some murders, but nothing on the scale that you've been painting. You're still acting on limited information and projecting your own opinions onto it, and you're still making a point of digging up and following up on a years-old argument that I've said REPEATEDLY that I want no part of.
Some? Let's look at that definition, shall we? :)
Definition of some:
some
adjective
#712;s#601;m for sense 2 without stress
Synonyms of some
1: being an unknown, undetermined, or unspecified unit or thing some person knocked
2a: being one, a part, or an unspecified number of something (such as a class or group) named or implied some gems are hard
b: being of an unspecified amount or number give me some water have some apples
Hmmm...........it's odd.... when I juxtapose most versus some, it seems that one says the majority of most people, and the other says, some unspecified amount, yet Ed just said most. I think it is pretty clear there. :)
Asked and answered counsel! ;)
quote:
Please, for the love of all that is holy, NEVER bring this up again unless you get something more than assumptions to back up your unsupported conclusions. I was done with this years ago. 
Master Rupert, I can see the revelations from Ed have facilitated some degree of umbrage as they have unveiled my being starkly correct in these aforementioned situations.
Though I stand profoundly correct, as if the Binder himself were speaking into my ear, I shall ensure that on this topic alone, I will consider the matter settled ala Ed by his lore conveyances today. :) I'll make sure we can do some deep dives going forward though on some of those other lore questions we've been confronted with that remain fully unsettled. :)
Best regards Master Rupert!
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 00:51:11
1) Okay, I'll concede that hunting down family members of foes would be murder. But that's still a far cry from your assertions of tens of thousands of murders, joyfully committed.
2) Gosh, a bunch of druids threatening people to keep them from causing widespread death and destruction by blowing up a volcano? How sinister! You'd think a murderous bunch of druids would be all for that -- maybe they're not so murderous?
3) Seen by murder by others doesn't mean it was murder. We still don't have the circumstances of the situation, but it's logical to assume that if the Enclave felt they needed to wipe out a small community, obviously that community was some sort of threat and wasn't backing down from what they were doing.
And it's not at all uncommon for the friends and loved ones of a slain person to feel that person was murdered, even if the slain person was the aggressor and the killer was acting in self-defense.
So yeah, we've got some murders, but nothing on the scale that you've been painting. You're still acting on limited information and projecting your own opinions onto it, and you're still making a point of digging up and following up on a years-old argument that I've said REPEATEDLY that I want no part of.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, NEVER bring this up again unless you get something more than assumptions to back up your unsupported conclusions. I was done with this years ago. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 13 Feb 2023 : 23:16:37
Master Rupert! Good afternoon!
I bring fair tidings from the vaunted halls of Ed Greenwood's glorious lore library, as he responded to my questions as a follow up! :) I will have my original questions quoted, then Ed's response after that. Enjoy! :)
quote:
You've not proven murder or unlawfulness, and as I said years ago, this "cleansing an entire town" thing that you keep harping on is entirely without context -- we don't know what happened there. Maybe it was murder, maybe it was self-defense. We don't know.
My question #1 for clarification:
quote:
I'm hoping to get a better understanding of what exactly was happening in some Emerald Enclave situations regarding text from the Vilhon Reach accessory. It was written that,
"That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."(Vilhon Reach, p.17)"
What kind of violence and ruthlessness beyond what I could find in the Vilhon Reach accessory led to the Emerald Enclaves activities being as legendary as the plagues of the Reach?
Ed's response to question #1:
quote:
“What kind of violence and ruthlessness beyond what I could find in the Vilhon Reach accessory led to the Emerald Enclaves activities being as legendary as the plagues of the Reach?”
Certain Enclave operatives taking the time to interrogate neighbours of foes, as well as the foes themselves, to thoroughly learn family trees so they could travel around the Realms and wipe out every last relative, to make certain no feuds nor vengeance-seekers might pop up in the future.
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every last relative???!!! LOL Ummmm...........unless you're going to argue that every member of the entire family tree had a "justifiable reason" for being "killed", then I think you're on pretty shaky ground here Master Rupert. ;) I would love to read your rebuttal against what Ed wrote though. :)
My question #2 for clarification:
quote:
"That last part seems to implicate the Enclave in choices of ending lives not only upon their viewpoints, but to control other viewpoints by implicitly threatening any future individuals seeking to prevent catastrophic explosions of Mt. Kolimnis. Is that the case?"
Ed's response to question #2
quote:
It is. It’s a classic case of “don’t oppose us, we understand things and you don’t; if you did understand you’d not thwart or criticize us, but you’re not of us and therefore not worthy of an explanation, so trust us—and if you don’t, die.”
My question #3 for clarification
quote:
"My reading of this initially was that "cleansing" was chosen to indicate a complete wipe out or annihilation of the population of said startup community. Is that the case? If so, was it justified by the Enclave and seen as nothing more than murder by most others, or something else?"
Ed's response to questions #3
quote:
Yes, complete extermination. Seen as justified by the Enclave, but murder by most others.
______________________
Let's take a looksy down the line here...........:
1) Murder, check. Oh, except by the Emerald Enclave, who........committed the murder. I forget, do people when they've committed murder get to simply declare that it was killing and not murder, and walk away? Generally speaking, no, no they don't.
2) Cleansings of the town = wholesale extermination = murder. Don't take my word for it, let's double check what Ed said, "Yes, complete extermination. Seen as justified by the Enclave, but murder by most others."
As to your point regarding the upgrading of the startup community to a town, legitimately my bad, and I thank you for the correction. Being concise matters, as definitions matter, and you were of course, right to point it out: thank you. It was a colloquial reference, but it shouldn't have been.
Good to see I wasn't crazy at least.......... Especially years later. ;)
Best regards, and I fervently look forward to your response regarding Ed's clarifications. :) :) :)
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Feb 2023 : 03:31:45
You've not proven murder or unlawfulness, and as I said years ago, this "cleansing an entire town" thing that you keep harping on is entirely without context -- we don't know what happened there. Maybe it was murder, maybe it was self-defense. We don't know.
(Also, I note that you're upgrading the place from a startup community to a town.)
So my thoughts are as they were before: until you present evidence backing your assertions, there's no point in discussing it. Especially years later. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 11 Feb 2023 : 02:22:45
Master Rupert,
Great to hear from you! :)
quote:
This still does not prove your original point. You've cited the bodycount as proof that "they delight in murdering entire towns".
I must say, my sarcastic point in that regard is ill-suited to the point I was making overall. In light of my earnest efforts to show the Emerald Enclave for who they really are, morally/ethically, to have a sarcastic and colloquial term statement (they delight in murdering towns) doesn't help. I agree there is nothing to demonstrate the enjoyment of the murdering they have committed.
quote:
Okay, fine, I will concede they've had quite the bodycount over a large span of time.
Fair enough.
quote:
You have proven neither murder, nor delight in it, nor even the slaughter of entire towns.
As to murder, let's take a look at that definition:
quote:
Murder occurs when one human being unlawfully kills another human being.
- https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/murder
Let's now look at the definition of killing:
quote:
killed; killing; kills
Synonyms of kill
transitive verb
1a: to deprive of life
b: (1): to slaughter (an animal) for food
(2): to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering
Juxtaposing those two different word's definitions against one another speaks to the intent.
What was the intent of cleansing an entire town?
Why did the Emerald Enclave show up with wizards to push the Turmish wizard into the volcano to his doom, when all he was attempting to do was prevent the end of his civilizations?
What was the reason that, "...they've had quite the bodycount over a large span of time?"
That seems like a lot of justification that must be necessary to make all of those instances of ending lives only killing and not murdering.
Thoughts on that?
quote:
And seriously, this was three freaking years ago. Let it go, man.
I consider this to have been a fantastic argument that had some great points made throughout, and loved your input on it all throughout Master Rupert! :)
It's why I love necro-scrolls so much: a truly good argument knows no age! Ask any philosopher studying Plato, Socrates, and others! :)
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Feb 2023 : 23:15:43
Okay, fine, I will concede they've had quite the bodycount over a large span of time.
This still does not prove your original point. You've cited the bodycount as proof that "they delight in murdering entire towns".
You have proven neither murder, nor delight in it, nor even the slaughter of entire towns.
And seriously, this was three freaking years ago. Let it go, man. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2023 : 20:04:58
Great Reader Ayrik! Welcome!
No sweat at all. I was replying back to Master Rupert about my discussion with Ed personally regarding the Emerald Enclave being evil and having a very high deathcount, that was ultimately confirmed by Ed. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Oops. I just noticed this is a necro scroll.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Feb 2023 : 19:26:30
Oops. I just noticed this is a necro scroll. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Feb 2023 : 19:12:54
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
But then you get into the problem of having Kelemvor being the deity of ALL the faithless and false ...
Not quite.
Some of the Faithless are still claimed by deities (or their proxies) for whatever reasons. They are taken to whatever afterlife the deity provides them somewhere in the Outer Planes. In rare instances, they are sometimes resurrected or reincarnated in the Realms to serve some specific purpose.
And some of the False still choose to accept pacts with Baatezu/Devils/Fiends. Most of these will likely end up being lemures meeting a quick and ugly end as they are tormented and consumed by others. But they do have a genuine chance in Hell of descending through the ranks - if they're strong, tough, cunning, ambitious, and lucky enough. Whatever pain, horror and suffering awaits them in Hell might still be a preferable option (to them) - they might be ended quickly, they might eventually emerge as powerful immortals - and either fate would be better (to them) than slowly dissolving into unimaginable insanity or rotting oblivion within the screaming Wall. Kelemvor apparently tolerates this practice, or at the least he's apparently been unable to fully halt it.
Various other deities, Powers, planars, and mortals might lure or capture some of the False and the Faithless (and even some of the Faithful). Souls can be useful and valuable commodities. Kelemvor is tasked with preventing such predations, but some of the incursions always do succeed and some of the souls always go missing from his inventory.
The vast majority of False and Faithless do fall under his purview. But there's always chance for souls to slip out of his grasp. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 10 Feb 2023 : 17:22:03
Good morning Master Rupert!
I hope this missive finds you well and in good spirits! :) I come bearing great news, from Ed Greenwood himself nonetheless! :)
I signed up for the Patreon Realms Legendary contributor that Ed released a week or so ago and I've been asking him some questions, and asked him one last night regarding the Emerald Enclave. I think you'll enjoy the answer! :) First, I'll quote something from you for context, since this discussion was a few years ago now.
quote:
What you are doing is taking things out of context and not utilizing other info. It is not being open-minded when you refuse to consider all relevant info. You cited one single data point. One. And it's a data point for which you have absolutely no context at all. And from that one single data point, ignoring ALL other information, you stated "they delight in murdering entire towns". I'm not an ethics junkie. I don't know teleological from deontological from technological. What I do know is that pronouncing judgement based on one single fact and ignoring all other information is wrong. [Bolding added for highlight, not original of course]
So, last night (9 Feb 23) I asked Ed the following question with data:
quote:
— Yesterday at 10:07 PM
Hello @Ed Greenwood. I hope my question finds you well this evening!
In the vein of many of my questions on Candlekeep, I delve into formal ethical analysis a lot, and the Emerald Enclave has been at the center of many rigorous debates there. Specifically regarding something from the Vilhon Reach accessory.
I've been arguing that the Emerald Enclave is responsible for between 713,230 to 2,852,920 million deaths over the course of their existence as an organization.
I would like to know if that is true, based on my reading and citation of the material in the Vilhon Reach accessory, which appears to lay out a consistently violent history. The references I use are below:
- It is widely held by the Harpers that the intention of the druids is to hold the Reach under one central authority, thereby making it easier to establish their political dominance of the area."(Vilhon Reach, p.14)
- That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."(Vilhon Reach, p.17)
- And, of course, the Emerald Enclave continued its militant activities in an effort to protect the interests of Silvanus."(Vilhon Reach, p.10)
- While the church has been accused of horrific actions (such as the "cleansing" of a startup community in Chondalwood in 1362, which was actually performed by the Emerald Enclave), they are guilty of some horrific actions of their own."(Vilhon Reach, p.17)
- Agents of the Emerald Enclave shapeshifted on either side of him and pushed the spellcasting mage into the heart of the volcano. Danirro's ring of feather fall was said to activate, but it only served to offer him a slow death as he floated slowly down into the magma."(Vilhon Reach, p.40)
Since the quote above did say "...as legendary as the plagues..." plural, I referenced an example of the biggest plagues to hit the Vilhon Reach and came up with:
In the Year of the Clinging Death (75 DR), a plague tore through the Vilhon Reach, killing more than 50% of the total population in as little as 10 years.
My take on this is that the Emerald Enclave has killed as many people as the plagues of the Vilhon Reach in light of the quote above citing their ruthlessness and violence being as legendary as those plagues. It seems that is an intention on part of Steven Schend to correlate the plagues and the Enclaves violence. I then came up with a roughed out notion of the losses by looking at demographics from (https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/vilhon.shtml), and adjusting generously downward.
In 1372, the Vilhon Reach had a population of approximately 5,705,840 (humans 95%, dwarves 2%, elves 1%, lizard-folk 1%). For arguments sakes I reduced that by 75% to 1,426,420 to be underwhelming in figures. I then took 50% of that figure, which appears to be 713,230 whereas the high value shows as 2,852,920.
Does this seem correct Ed?
Tymora be Blessed!!, Ed responded within 51 minutes! Can you believe that? :) Here is his response, just after that! :)
quote:
Ed Greenwood — Yesterday at 10:58 PM
It does. Although everything that we know about the Realms comes to us through unreliable narrators, your conclusion is sound. Your numbers may be off purely because we can't get reliable counting for anything, and I would judge the Enclave to equal the deathcount of one of the smallest plagues, not the largest, but...your reasoning and conclusion, yes. The factor that must always be borne in mind is that ethics are mutable, from place to place, culture to culture, and time to time. We have a tendency to judge others by our own standards, and that is itself shaky ethical ground. However, one can't argue with the deathcount.
Now, what I found interesting about Ed's response, is as you can see, he confirmed that my "...reasoning and conclusion..." were correct. He did in fact as you can also see, correct the expected deathcount from the largest one I cited to the smallest. Of plagues in the Vilhon Reach area, the smallest recorded one was from the Nun River Valley "Rotting War" incident, that,
quote:
Two-thirds of all of the men and women gathered on the Fields of Nun died within minutes. The unfortunate remainder who survived the magical plague stumbled back to their home cities, only to be locked out from their homes by those they had sworn to protect. The surrounding villages and towns inland quickly fell victim to the plague. The civil war had ended, but Arrabar would never regain the control it once had. Chondath formally granted independence to Sembia, hoping to make up in trade what it had lost in control. All of the cities except Iljak declared their independence.
Obviously that amount of people, in accordance with Ed's canon decree, is going to be much less than the range of death I had proposed before, which was between 713,230 to 2,852,920 million deaths; however, as you can see in Ed's response, he left off by saying, "However, one can't argue with the deathcount."
Clearly, Ed, as I have argued before, stated that,
quote:
The factor that must always be borne in mind is that ethics are mutable, from place to place, culture to culture, and time to time.
In my arguments, I have highlighted that different ethics define different morality, i.e. deontology, consequentialism. In this case, it is obvious that the Emerald Enclave take an "ends justify the means" approach, and well................. we can't argue with the deathcount now, can we? ;)
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 06:48:59
Acolyte MrSukx,
I assure you, by continuing in such fantastic discussions with the likes of Master Rupert and others, you will come to steep yourself in the epic lore of the Realms!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by MrSukx
Wooly Rupert,
I cannot say one way or the other one how canonical it is or isn't. I'm just learning about most of this stuff to be honest. I'm in the process of the deepplunge into the lore. There really is an amazing amount of lore here at Candlekeep!
Thanks for the reply
|
| MrSukx |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 05:54:15
Wooly Rupert,
I cannot say one way or the other one how canonical it is or isn't. I'm just learning about most of this stuff to be honest. I'm in the process of the deepplunge into the lore. There really is an amazing amount of lore here at Candlekeep!
Thanks for the reply |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 05:39:32
quote:
Originally posted by MrSukx
It was never stated that they were the source of the plague. It was clearly stated that they were not, but rather they were are deadly/ruthless as the plague/s.
If I knew how to quote here I would quote cpthero2 in his post where it was stated.
If they enjoyed the bloodshed or not, I cannot speak on, sadly.
Give me a few months and I should be more versed on the subject, as well as others.
Thank you for your reply Wooly Rupert.
Okay, I stand corrected. He did not say they started the plagues. I will concede that point.
But he does say that their reputation for ruthlessness means they've caused just as many deaths. It is not backed up in canon that they've caused any large number of deaths -- ruthlessness can include violence that stops well short of fatalities.
And X being just as well-known as Y does not mean there is any similarity between the two. In the Dales, Storm Silverhand is just as well-known as Manshoon -- does that mean that both are beautiful bards, or that both are tyrannical villains?
I'm not proclaiming someone to be a villain without facts -- and certainly not when canon states otherwise.
We know of exactly one time that someone died at Enclave hands, but cpthero is making assumptions to blame them for millions of deaths, and he's assuming that they delight in these deaths. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 05:16:35
Seeker perlmugp,
You know, I can certainly appreciate that.
It started out as commentary on still born babies, the fugue plane, the ethics of it all, and then it kind of got heavy.
What are your thoughts Seeker perlmugp, beyond the already stated by you? :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by perlmugp
This is the strangest fight scene I have ever watched.
|
| perlmugp |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 05:04:16
This is the strangest fight scene I have ever watched. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 04:57:09
Acolyte MrSukx,
Well stated sir.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by MrSukx
It was never stated that they were the source of the plague. It was clearly stated that they were not, but rather they were are deadly/ruthless as the plague/s.
If I knew how to quote here I would quote cpthero2 in his post where it was stated.
If they enjoyed the bloodshed or not, I cannot speak on, sadly.
Give me a few months and I should be more versed on the subject, as well as others.
Thank you for your reply Wooly Rupert.
|
| MrSukx |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 04:51:20
It was never stated that they were the source of the plague. It was clearly stated that they were not, but rather they were are deadly/ruthless as the plague/s.
If I knew how to quote here I would quote cpthero2 in his post where it was stated.
If they enjoyed the bloodshed or not, I cannot speak on, sadly.
Give me a few months and I should be more versed on the subject, as well as others.
Thank you for your reply Wooly Rupert. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 04:48:41
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
My apologies. I assumed by the sheer volume of posts that you were the chief moderator (heck, that is an impressive amount of posts!). I stand corrected. :)
As to you asking me to look at facts, etc., not coming from a moderator, I will say: thank you. I wasn't sure, but I appreciate you clarifying that. It is appreciated. :)
Well, as to the overwhelming evidence, my position is you just haven't read everything I posed to you. That's your prerogative, but doesn't make your claims, beliefs, or outlooks any more correct.
As to the cleansed community comment, again, this is simply denial of what is clear based on the (5) five bullets of information provided from canon sources, that are cited. You are as always, entitled to your beliefs, but evidence is an ugly maiden when she comes calling, and I think she may be at your door right now, knocking... I'll give you a minute.
Anyhow......
You are so very, very, absolutely correct about me laying millions of deaths at their feet. I've articulated my reasons. Again, you can deny them all you like. I think Neville Chamberlain did something like that back in the day. Could you ask him how those negotiations went? Well anyways........... moving right along..........
You 100% misrepresented my point when you said, "You stated yourself that there was no proof the Enclave had anything to do with these plagues..." What I quoted, then said, was...
Plague quote:
quote:
In the Year of the Clinging Death (75 DR), a plague tore through the Vilhon Reach, killing more than 50% of the total population in as little as 10 years.
My statement:
quote:
To begin with: I am not saying that the Emerald Enclave started this plague.
However, let's hold on a darn tootin' moment here! I thought it was just said that "That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."
What you might want to consider first is looking at the fact that the plague in 75DR was one of (you guessed it) all plagues in the region. The amalgamated plagues led to 'x' deaths. Knowing that canon stipulates that 50% of the entire Vilhon Reach was killed by plague alone in the Year of the Clinging Death, and that Jim Butler's entry identifies that the Emerald Enclaves legendarily ruthless violence was equal to the plagues of the region we can easily ascertain that we would include the plague that killed 50% of the entire population of the Vilhon Reach.
Again, repeating that they are assumptions does not make them that. I've provided the evidence. I stand by it. We can disagree, and that's fine. I feel confident in my research and conclusion.
The Emerald Enclave is adjudicated by me to be an evil organization.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
cpthero2:
I am not the chief moderator. I am A moderator.
And me asking you to actually look at facts is not coming from a moderator. That's coming from a member of this forum. I'm here because I enjoy discussing Realmslore.
You say you've provided overwhelming evidence. I still see nothing but assumptions.
We don't know a thing about this cleansed community, but you assume they enjoyed doing it -- without any canon information that remotely implies that.
You're also laying millions of deaths at their feet, again based on your own assumption that being as well known as a plague means they caused the same number of deaths. You stated yourself that there was no proof the Enclave had anything to do with these plagues, and then use those same plagues to claim the Enclave is evil.
You want me or anyone else to believe your assertions, back them up with facts, not assumptions.
So you quote yourself in saying that they didn't start this plague, and then blame them for it anyway...
Give me a canon reference that explicitly says they started the plagues. Until you can provide that, you're operating on an assumption. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 04:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by MrSukx
Not trying to really get to involved into that debate too deeply, but based on reading all the posts it seems that cpthero2 has supplied information and sources to the claim that the Emerald enclave is known for being ruthless.
I cannot speak for the validity to the reference as I really do not know much on the topic, but if what was said is indeed accurate, which was never really challenged but rather dismissed without comment, then they would be responsible for massive murders/killings and the like. Seems like a reasonable conclusion at this point to say that they, in part or entirely, employ evil tactics to go about their ends.
I'm not saying that are evil or not, but rather based on my very limited information, they do not shy away from using evil tactics.
I'm not arguing that they're not ruthless. I'm arguing that there is nothing saying they're the source of plagues. I'm arguing that there is nothing saying they are happy to commit mass murder. |
| MrSukx |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 04:33:56
Not trying to really get to involved into that debate too deeply, but based on reading all the posts it seems that cpthero2 has supplied information and sources to the claim that the Emerald enclave is known for being ruthless.
I cannot speak for the validity to the reference as I really do not know much on the topic, but if what was said is indeed accurate, which was never really challenged but rather dismissed without comment, then they would be responsible for massive murders/killings and the like. Seems like a reasonable conclusion at this point to say that they, in part or entirely, employ evil tactics to go about their ends.
I'm not saying that are evil or not, but rather based on my very limited information, they do not shy away from using evil tactics. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 04:11:52
Master Rupert,
My apologies. I assumed by the sheer volume of posts that you were the chief moderator (heck, that is an impressive amount of posts!). I stand corrected. :)
As to you asking me to look at facts, etc., not coming from a moderator, I will say: thank you. I wasn't sure, but I appreciate you clarifying that. It is appreciated. :)
Well, as to the overwhelming evidence, my position is you just haven't read everything I posed to you. That's your prerogative, but doesn't make your claims, beliefs, or outlooks any more correct.
As to the cleansed community comment, again, this is simply denial of what is clear based on the (5) five bullets of information provided from canon sources, that are cited. You are as always, entitled to your beliefs, but evidence is an ugly maiden when she comes calling, and I think she may be at your door right now, knocking... I'll give you a minute.
Anyhow......
You are so very, very, absolutely correct about me laying millions of deaths at their feet. I've articulated my reasons. Again, you can deny them all you like. I think Neville Chamberlain did something like that back in the day. Could you ask him how those negotiations went? Well anyways........... moving right along..........
You 100% misrepresented my point when you said, "You stated yourself that there was no proof the Enclave had anything to do with these plagues..." What I quoted, then said, was...
Plague quote:
quote:
In the Year of the Clinging Death (75 DR), a plague tore through the Vilhon Reach, killing more than 50% of the total population in as little as 10 years.
My statement:
quote:
To begin with: I am not saying that the Emerald Enclave started this plague.
However, let's hold on a darn tootin' moment here! I thought it was just said that "That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."
What you might want to consider first is looking at the fact that the plague in 75DR was one of (you guessed it) all plagues in the region. The amalgamated plagues led to 'x' deaths. Knowing that canon stipulates that 50% of the entire Vilhon Reach was killed by plague alone in the Year of the Clinging Death, and that Jim Butler's entry identifies that the Emerald Enclaves legendarily ruthless violence was equal to the plagues of the region we can easily ascertain that we would include the plague that killed 50% of the entire population of the Vilhon Reach.
Again, repeating that they are assumptions does not make them that. I've provided the evidence. I stand by it. We can disagree, and that's fine. I feel confident in my research and conclusion.
The Emerald Enclave is adjudicated by me to be an evil organization.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
cpthero2:
I am not the chief moderator. I am A moderator.
And me asking you to actually look at facts is not coming from a moderator. That's coming from a member of this forum. I'm here because I enjoy discussing Realmslore.
You say you've provided overwhelming evidence. I still see nothing but assumptions.
We don't know a thing about this cleansed community, but you assume they enjoyed doing it -- without any canon information that remotely implies that.
You're also laying millions of deaths at their feet, again based on your own assumption that being as well known as a plague means they caused the same number of deaths. You stated yourself that there was no proof the Enclave had anything to do with these plagues, and then use those same plagues to claim the Enclave is evil.
You want me or anyone else to believe your assertions, back them up with facts, not assumptions.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 03:31:41
cpthero2:
I am not the chief moderator. I am A moderator.
And me asking you to actually look at facts is not coming from a moderator. That's coming from a member of this forum. I'm here because I enjoy discussing Realmslore.
You say you've provided overwhelming evidence. I still see nothing but assumptions.
We don't know a thing about this cleansed community, but you assume they enjoyed doing it -- without any canon information that remotely implies that.
You're also laying millions of deaths at their feet, again based on your own assumption that being as well known as a plague means they caused the same number of deaths. You stated yourself that there was no proof the Enclave had anything to do with these plagues, and then use those same plagues to claim the Enclave is evil.
You want me or anyone else to believe your assertions, back them up with facts, not assumptions. |
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