| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 04:50:44
In my constant quest to mine the nuggets of realmslore that lie in the many FR sources from 1E to 3E, I was re-reading Demihuman Deities last night and came across a reference to humans living in the Yuirwood before the elves came there. It was these humans who first worshipped Relkath, Zandilar, the Simbul, etc.
As of UE, we know that the Yuirwood was colonised by elves in c. -9800 DR, so these humans were there before this date.
I'm just wondering if any of the scribes here had any thoughts on what racial stock they may be, where they came from (or of they were 'native' to the area) and probably more importantly, what happened to them or where they went.
Musings and thoughts most welcome.
-- George Krashos
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 04:03:21
Great Reader Krashos,
I forgot to ask earlier...
Was there anything in particular that led you to choose the name, "Arthraen?"
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I have much later come to the conclusion that the original human inhabitants of the Yuirwood, like the Netherese in their particular region, were "always there". Well, they were part of a sizable human populations that roamed the much larger conjoined forests of the Unapproachable East. In fact, I even gave them a name: "the Arthraen" - although that's not what they called themselves.
-- George Krashos
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 01:17:02
Great Reader Krashos,
Well....damn! hahaha
I thought I had some great stuff there. Oh well, worse things to do than get even more steeped in the lore of the Realms! :)
Thank you for sharing that though.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I have much later come to the conclusion that the original human inhabitants of the Yuirwood, like the Netherese in their particular region, were "always there". Well, they were part of a sizable human populations that roamed the much larger con-joined forests of the Unapproachable East. In fact, I even game them a name: "the Arthraen" - although that's not what they called themselves.
-- George Krashos
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 01:13:26
I have much later come to the conclusion that the original human inhabitants of the Yuirwood, like the Netherese in their particular region, were "always there". Well, they were part of a sizable human populations that roamed the much larger conjoined forests of the Unapproachable East. In fact, I even gave them a name: "the Arthraen" - although that's not what they called themselves.
-- George Krashos |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 19:13:09
Master Krashos,
My apologies for jumping in a couple of weeks late here... 
I was really thinking about this a lot, and I wanted to throw out some ideas, just to see what you think of them.
What if we looked at migration patterns established in early human history, followed by conquest actions as the basis for taking known genetic traits to establish the appearance of the folk in the Yuirwood? As an example you can look at how the Ulutiun's migrated to the Great Glacier/Sossal area. We know this happened. So, what if migrants from roughly what is now days called the Ra-Khati area came in and crossed over what is now the Bitter Well Caravan Route before the Dragon Wall was built? Here is my support of the idea.
First, establish some timeline parameters for age, so we know that this idea works.
The Ulutiun's As Support of Early Migration
quote:
Although the Ulutiun's have long inhabited the polar reaches of Faerun, these short, dark-haired, broad-faced humans with light-brown skin are actually migrants from the northern reaches of Kara-Tur who moved westward across the polar ice cap millenia ago.
The Sea of Moving Ice, the Ice Peak, and the Cold Run (as the icy reaches of the northernmost Sword Coast are sometimes known) are home to the Ice Hunters, the westernmost group of Ulutiuns. Believe to predate the arrival of both the Netherese and the Illuskans... (Races of Faerun, p.109)
So, knowing that the Netherese established their civilization right around -3859DR, and that the Illuskans were first established c. -3000DR, we have a starting point of timelines.
_____________________
Dragon Wall
We know the Dragon Wall was created the Great Dragonwall when,
quote:
Using the Jade Mirror, Emperor Tan Chin and his friend Kar Wuan trick Pao Hu Jen the Guardian into flying to the lands of the horse barbarians where they transform the dragon into the Great Dragonwall of Shou Lung. (GHotR, p.36)
So, we know the wall wasn't there before that time, which means going that route over land is plausible. Additionally, we know other humans were in that area starting in c. -8900DR with the Taangan Steppe Folk (Tuigan later on) in addition to humans living in the Ra-Khati area. These peoples are the only references with the exception of the ancient Durpari and Imaskari due to the transdimensional portal magic that was being used at that time. An excerpt from Races of Faerun (apologies for the long excerpt, but I feel it needed):
quote:
In –8350 DR, a splinter tribe of the ancient Durpari traveled northeast to settle in the fertile basin of the
Raurin Plateau. During the Nemrut period (–8350 to –7975), named for the civilization’s first warlord, the Imaskari lived in tribal communities ruled by chiefs and the warrior aristocracy. The spread of agriculture during this time led to a rising population and the founding of many farming villages on the plateau. The founding of the Imperial City of Inupras ushered in the Early Dynastic period (–7975 to –6422), when Umyatin assumed the title of lord artificer and emperor.
This period was marked primarily by the Imaskari elite’s mastery of transdimensional magic. The artificers used this knowledge to create a sprawling network of portals, which allowed them to cross vast distances in the blink of an eye. These permanent, two-way portals were constructed as circles of massive bronze spires, each etched with an intricate runic design said to be batrachi in origin. These Bukhara Spires allowed whole legions to pass swiftly from one domain to the next, precipitating the rapid expansion of the Imaskar Empire across eastern Faerűn. By the end of the Early Dynastic period, the empire’s borders reached from the Great Ice Sea to the Golden Water, and from the Alamber Sea to the Katakoro Plateau in Kara-Tur. First to fall to the burgeoning empire were the kobold tribes of Zexthandrim, followed by the korobokuru dwarves of Shan Nala. Subsequent campaigns brought about the subjugation of the Taangan steppe peoples and
the annexation of Khati, Durpar, and Ulgarth. Imaskar’s first military defeat came in –6788 DR, when its western outpost in Aerilpar was besieged by forest landwyrms. A Raudor peasant rebellion followed in –6779, but the uprising was quickly put down.(Races of Faerun, p.18)
_______________________
Semphar Connection
The people of Semphar, though there is not a lot of lore about them, are identified as having an interesting history with Mulhorand, the Imaskari, and Shou Empires.
quote:
Semphar has a long history, a mixture of subjugation and independence. At different times it has been part of the Imaskari, Mulhorand, and Shou empires. Each has left its mark in religions, language, customs, and laws. The Imaskari influence, most ancient, has left a lingering mystery of magical might and terror. Mulhorand promoted religious beliefs. Even today the Caliph is held in near godlike reverence. The Shou built the framework of a bureaucracy and civil law, allowing trade to flourish and prosper in Semphar. In addition, neighboring Solon has spread many Devic influences in dress, food, and religionThe horsemen of the steppes have made their impact on the armies of Semphar, which have a large proportion of cavalry.(The Horde, p.101, 1990)
We all know that with subjugation comes cross-breeding (to put that politely) and those genetic pools mix. Another great link for apperance.
_______________________
So, what if you made the people that were in the areas of what is now known as Ra-Khati, Taangan Steppe's, Semphar and the migrated Durpari, the humans that were the stock of the people that eventually settled in that Yuirwood area?
A further look at some of those people gives us a good idea of why that stock makes sense when you look at their physical appearance.
- Gur Tribe (Taan people from the Endless Wastes): "Gurs were typically a stout, strong, and sturdy people, with thick black hair, dark eyes, and dusky skin (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, p.111, 2015)(Player's Guide to Faerun, p.17, 2004)
- Aglarondian people: "Human Aglarondans are sturdy, dark-haired people with brown or blue eyes and ruddy skin from regular exposure to the elements."(Spellbound, p.49, 1995)
- Durpari people: "The average Durpari stands only 5-1/2 feet tall and has dark, almost ebony-colored skin and black or gray eyes. Her hair is usually dark and thick, though once in a while, a child with deep reddish-gold hair is born."(Shining South, p.114, 2004)
When you take into account how the Mulan abused, enslaved, etc. the Durpari when they migrated north after their initial civilization collapsed, the migratory habits of the Taangan people, humans from the region we now know of as Ra-Khati, and what Aglarondian's look like now, there seems to be a good argument for the appearance of the people of Aglarond now days. I mean, genetics turns out to be a beautiful thing to look at for why it has melted out the way it has. :)
Here is a list for a quick comparison on those traits:
- Gur: Thick black hair, dark eyes, dusky skin
- Durpari: Almost ebony skin, black/gray eyes, dark thick hair
- Mulan: Sallow skin, brown or hazel eyes
- Shou: Yellowish-bronze skin, black hair
- Imaskari: Unknown what their features were like before they went underground as far as I know
- Aglarond: Ruddy skin, brown or blue eyes, dark-haired
I think the great option here is that you can see with conquest, cross-breeding, and all within a somewhat localized area due to migration patterns as well that this can come together nicely.
What are your thoughts?
_________________________
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In my constant quest to mine the nuggets of realmslore that lie in the many FR sources from 1E to 3E, I was re-reading Demihuman Deities last night and came across a reference to humans living in the Yuirwood before the elves came there. It was these humans who first worshipped Relkath, Zandilar, the Simbul, etc.
As of UE, we know that the Yuirwood was colonised by elves in c. -9800 DR, so these humans were there before this date.
I'm just wondering if any of the scribes here had any thoughts on what racial stock they may be, where they came from (or of they were 'native' to the area) and probably more importantly, what happened to them or where they went.
Musings and thoughts most welcome.
-- George Krashos
|
| Kajehase |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 05:51:45
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Minor skirmish in what is now known as Thay that went on between -1075 DR and -1069 DR after some renegade Mulhorandi wizards opened a gate to a world of orcs, in which the Mulhorandi god Ra died along with the Untheric deities Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu was killed.
It also (indirectly) led to several barbaric people of the region around Ashanath founding their own kingdoms after having been influenced by the Mulan people they though side to side with as mercenaries against the orc horde.
Man, those untheric gods dropped like flies. How come?
They didn't eat enough vegetables. |
| khorne |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 17:53:52
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Minor skirmish in what is now known as Thay that went on between -1075 DR and -1069 DR after some renegade Mulhorandi wizards opened a gate to a world of orcs, in which the Mulhorandi god Ra died along with the Untheric deities Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu was killed.
It also (indirectly) led to several barbaric people of the region around Ashanath founding their own kingdoms after having been influenced by the Mulan people they though side to side with as mercenaries against the orc horde.
Man, those untheric gods dropped like flies. How come? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 17:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Caffeine has yet to settle on my brain, so take this for the sleep-deprived babble it may be...
Old idea to play with--What if some Netherese saw the Fall coming and fled with a floating city or two back in time rather than into a different dimension? Some snafu causes the cities to quickly or slowly crash after re-entry in the distant past, and their crashed remnants make up a large chunk of the Thaymount.
Since they've sort of rendered the area inhospitable for a while, some flee south and west and form Imaskar. Others go north and are the humans that were in the Yuirwood.
Wacky, sure, but it's something I might try if I were running a Realms game these days. 
That's an interesting idea... I'm going to have to ponder that one...  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 14:18:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Did you at least decide on the racial group's name?
I'll go with Ashan to keep you happy, Sage.
If it ever gets 'canonised' you can always say you decided on the name.
-- George Krashos
You're too kind Krash  .
quote:
Some snafu causes the cities to quickly or slowly crash after re-entry in the distant past, and their crashed remnants make up a large chunk of the Thaymount.
That's an interesting hook. And it just begs to be further explored in a campaign.
Thanks Steven .
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 13:21:59
Caffeine has yet to settle on my brain, so take this for the sleep-deprived babble it may be...
Old idea to play with--What if some Netherese saw the Fall coming and fled with a floating city or two back in time rather than into a different dimension? Some snafu causes the cities to quickly or slowly crash after re-entry in the distant past, and their crashed remnants make up a large chunk of the Thaymount.
Since they've sort of rendered the area inhospitable for a while, some flee south and west and form Imaskar. Others go north and are the humans that were in the Yuirwood.
Wacky, sure, but it's something I might try if I were running a Realms game these days. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 11:42:59
Minor skirmish in what is now known as Thay that went on between -1075 DR and -1069 DR after some renegade Mulhorandi wizards opened a gate to a world of orcs, in which the Mulhorandi god Ra died along with the Untheric deities Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu was killed.
It also (indirectly) led to several barbaric people of the region around Ashanath founding their own kingdoms after having been influenced by the Mulan people they though side to side with as mercenaries against the orc horde. |
| khorne |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 08:56:49
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
These early humans eventually formed the Raumviran and Nar racial stocks that fought in the Mulhorand-Unther wars and the Orcgate Wars. As for a name, I'm leaning toward the Ashan or the Shanath (both derived from Ashanath).
-- George Krashos
Orcgate wars? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 08:04:49
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Did you at least decide on the racial group's name?
I'll go with Ashan to keep you happy, Sage.
If it ever gets 'canonised' you can always say you decided on the name.
-- George Krashos
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 07:00:15
Did you at least decide on the racial group's name?
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 06:49:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm... A expansion from the north does seem interesting. And the inclusion of giant masters adds a new element to the mix. Where might you place the few giant kingdoms?
Well, I was thinking mostly in terms of hill giants, frost giants and cloud giants. The former would control the peaks in and around Thesk (Dragonjaw etc.), the frosty ones would control the mountains bordering Thay, Rashemen and up north into the region around Sossal while the cloud giants would control the Earthspurs and mountains around the Bloodstone lands.
Of course, there is a pretty big gap between -24000 DR and the coming of the elves in -9800 DR, so I'm tempted to say that the giant kingdoms in the region persisted for longer than -24000 DR as a regional phenomenon but died out by say -15000 DR as cohesive realms etc. What caused the end of the Time of Giants? Well, it could have been a huge rebellion by their 'cattle' (humans) or conflict with some powerful dragons (a big red in the mountains and a green in the Lethyr forest) or a few things that just haven't popped into my head yet ... I'll keep brainstorming and thank you all for the input.
-- George Krashos |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:48:36
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
What I'm thinking guys is that humans pre-date the elves by a considerable margin in the Bloodstone, Impiltur, Thesk, Narfell and Great Dale lands. Likely they were primitive tribal groupings (think stone age) that were enslaved in turn by the sarrukh and then by the ... wait for it ... giants. I'm planning to have a few giant kingdoms in the region as well as a gnoll one and a few others (hobgoblins et. al.).
Hmmm... A expansion from the north does seem interesting. And the inclusion of giant masters adds a new element to the mix. Where might you place the few giant kingdoms?
quote:
The humans in the Yuirwood may have been escapees from either the sarrukh or the giants (I have to check my dates here) and as to what happened to them - well, they likely died off (disease, predators, natural disaster).
The reign of the giants came to an end around -25000 DR. Positioning the giants as the original masters of the primitive human slaves cuts at least 10,000 years of the historical time. If they were escaped slaves from the Colossal Kingdom, they likely fled south during -24000 DR.
quote:
I'm a bit loathe to use the portal 'escape route' as we used it to get Illuskans to Rashemen and Dambrath in recent times and it's getting as bad as bringing back flying Netherese cities or 'missing' elven sub-races.
That's what I was getting at. It 'cheapens' both planar travel in general, and the Yuirwood in particular.
quote:
These early humans eventually formed the Raumviran and Nar racial stocks that fought in the Mulhorand-Unther wars and the Orcgate Wars. As for a name, I'm leaning toward the Ashan or the Shanath (both derived from Ashanath).
I prefer the Ashan, but that's just me .
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:35:07
What I'm thinking guys is that humans pre-date the elves by a considerable margin in the Bloodstone, Impiltur, Thesk, Narfell and Great Dale lands. Likely they were primitive tribal groupings (think stone age) that were enslaved in turn by the sarrukh and then by the ... wait for it ... giants. I'm planning to have a few giant kingdoms in the region as well as a gnoll one and a few others (hobgoblins et. al.).
The humans in the Yuirwood may have been escapees from either the sarrukh or the giants (I have to check my dates here) and as to what happened to them - well, they likely died off (disease, predators, natural disaster).
I'm a bit loathe to use the portal 'escape route' as we used it to get Illuskans to Rashemen and Dambrath in recent times and it's getting as bad as bringing back flying Netherese cities or 'missing' elven sub-races.
These early humans eventually formed the Raumviran and Nar racial stocks that fought in the Mulhorand-Unther wars and the Orcgate Wars. As for a name, I'm leaning toward the Ashan or the Shanath (both derived from Ashanath).
-- George Krashos
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:29:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm away from my books, but this just occurred to me... Isn't the Yuirwood another of those places where there's a bunch of portals scattered around? Perhaps the early humans there could have been a small group that came thru a portal and decided to settle in this strange new world...
That idea is probably the easiest suggestion for the origin of the human racial group. But, the fact that the star elves themselves are recent visitors might make the Yuirwood look more like some kind of "planar hotel" for travellers from other worlds...
Escaped human slaves of the Sarrukh is an interesting possbility. The Sarrukh established Okoth in southern Mulhorand around -35000 DR. If these primitive humans managed to flee Okoth several thousand years later and then gradually evolved a community of their own among the Yuirwood, that still leaves a relatively large number of years to explain what happened between then, and when they abandoned the wood.
Perhaps a significant number of the Yuirwood humans left through a portal to another world. Although I'm a little hesitant to support that idea for the reasons I stated above about frequent planar travel in the Yuirwood.
|
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 21:37:56
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm just wondering if any of the scribes here had any thoughts on what racial stock they may be, where they came from (or of they were 'native' to the area) and probably more importantly, what happened to them or where they went.
As of yet no concrete musing on the racial stock, but as to what happened to them, I would think that their racial stock probably makes up most of the non-elven part in the half-elves of the Yuirwood.
The 'indigenous' humans intermingled with the newly arrived elves, as these tribal hunter/gatherers lived along similar ethical and moral codes the elves did. Over time, through intermarriages both original races mixed to such an extent that hardly anymore trace of the 'pure' blood remains and the half-elf descendants are the resulting predominant race. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 21:35:05
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Where can I find information about deep Imaskar and the Imaskari in general? I know next to nothing about them.
Deep Imaskari are in Underdark and there's one in Lady of Poison by Bruce R. Cordell.
As for the Imaskari, Lost Empires should have some I think? And the Desert of Desolation 1e material. :) |
| khorne |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 21:29:28
Where can I find information about deep Imaskar and the Imaskari in general? I know next to nothing about them. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 18:03:15
Another issue that's raised by this is what happened with these "hamsterians" once the elves arrived. Perhaps the history of half-elven tribes in the Yuirwood is far longer than current realmslore have revealed? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 17:53:38
Sarrukh kept human slaves. Perhaps they were originally abandonned or escaped Sarrukh slaves. They could have been transplanted there and abandonned or could have escaped and fled to the Yuirwood to hide.
Whether they were transplanted or refugees they could have come from any racial stock anywhere the Sarrukh had a presence. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 17:51:34
I'm away from my books, but this just occurred to me... Isn't the Yuirwood another of those places where there's a bunch of portals scattered around? Perhaps the early humans there could have been a small group that came thru a portal and decided to settle in this strange new world... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 14:43:54
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
A tribe of Imasaki could be interesting
Yes, but how did the Imaskari come to be in the Yuirwood in the first place?
The first recorded presence of any Imaskari tribes on Faerun was around -8350 DR. By that time, the green elves had already settled in the Yuirwood following the Crown Wars.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 14:37:49
quote:
I guess "Hamsterians" is out, then?
Well, that all depends.
Does the "Woolyians", or perhaps maybe, the "Rupertians" sound any better?
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 14:28:12
A tribe of Imasaki could be interesting
We know that the humans who lived in the yuirwood where religious which if they where Imaski would have put them out of step with the rulers of the Imaski empire. Perhaps the Yuirwood gods where the origional Imaski Pantheon gods but where dropped when the Imaski became "civilizaed" and founded their empire. Now lets say that some Imaski didnt like the Imaski empires persecution of the Divine and they returned to the Yuirwood. Maybe these same Imaski taught or helped create the portal sites that allowed the Star elves to migrate to their demi plane.
Ok so where are these Imaski now?
Maybe they managed to find their way to Deep Imaski or the tribes died out |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 11:33:29
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't have any particular suggestions as such, but I would recommend that you try to keep the relative "flavor" of racial groups names for the UE for this new group.
I guess "Hamsterians" is out, then? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 09:40:27
I was thinking about the possibility of outlining a new racial group just for this primitive group of Yuirwood humans. Although, I don't usually like stretching source material that far unless it is absolutely necessary.
You're right though. Since we've learned relatively little about these humans since the details in Demihuman Deities, it is a fair assumption to suggest that they have had no further impact - besides leaving the ancient relics in the wood - upon the developing realms of the region.
Since they will now no longer be specifically derived from any pre-existing racial group in the area, you're free to name them however you wish. I don't have any particular suggestions as such, but I would recommend that you try to keep the relative "flavor" of racial groups names for the UE for this new group.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 09:33:15
It looks like I'll have to create a whole new human racial group - which actually makes sense. Eric's work in RoF notes the Nar and the Raumvirans but all their 'history' begins in -1900 DR or so according to UE. They exist in the area before this (with the Rashemi as interlopers in -5000 DR) it appears. Hmm, what could I name them? Suggestions anyone?
-- George Krashos
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 08:58:48
Actually, I don't think that does work. I recall now that the kingdom of Raurin was destroyed around the late -2400's. That still leaves around seven and a half thousand years of history between the two periods.
|
|
|
