| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 15:27:00
Sorry, but I'm bored and curious.
Just who are they, anyway? I'm working on the basis that the term means those deities that entered the Realms from elsewhere, as compared to 'home grown' gods (like Shar, Mystra, or Cyric).
My list runs at:
Tyr -- Norse God of Justice and Law
Loviatar -- Finnish demoness or goddess, I think.
Talona -- another Finnish deity under her original name of Kiputyyto (Is that how it's spelled?)
And isn't Mielikki originally some Finnish goddess of nature?
Sune -- Aphrodite in the Realms. Guess those medieval stories about her and the Venusberg were baloney. ;)
Lathander -- Is it just me, or is he Apollo? They sure sound a lot alike, or is it just that dawn gods have a lot of similarities?
I also recall the Maztican gods as basically being the Mexica/Nahuatl pantheon. And the origins of the Mulhorand and Untheric deities are pretty obvious.
Did I miss anyone? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 09 Oct 2018 : 20:42:20
Great Reader Ayrik,
I completely see your point there. I think that drives at what I was discussing as well. The mere fact that the evil gods are acknowledged, prayed against in prayers to good and other gods, indicates the power that they have through that form of worship/acknowledgement.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Realms has a pantheon of deities, belief in any one of them implicitly recognizes the existence of all the others.
To be sure, evil deities don't tend to attract many faithful outside their strongholds. But they are still often invoked by "nonbelievers" for minor benisons/malisons which relate to their portfolios - people might ask Shar for a small "blessing" of forgetfulness, pray that Beshaba's misfortune attends to a competitor, hope that Bane sends a "champion" to impose a sense of strong order within a democratic discord, offer a sacrifice to Umberlee for safe passage of their ships, etc. Evil gods are still gods, lol.
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 09 Oct 2018 : 20:40:28
Seeker bloodtide_the_red,
I feel that that is a fantastic way to go. It conjures up the notion of the TV series, American Gods, where the All-Father indicates just people mentioning his name keeps him alive. Obviously their dedicated faithful has gone down significantly, yet he is still a god and powerful, somewhat.
I do the same thing myself. In fact, Master Rupert's mention of the Bitch Queen was perfect as that is in fact exactly what I do in small, but important, Realms culture ways.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
I have always had the fear/acknowledgment/respect count as worship. In the more generic sense, when anyone invokes a deities name and believes in them, it counts as worship. So wishing someone 'Tymora's Luck' counts the same way as saying 'Hope the Dark Sun does not shine on you today'.
Also, I think a lot of people do worship the dark gods. A lot of people worship Mask for example, as a lot of people steal...and not just bandits and pick pockets. Most all races have a 'dark side'.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Oct 2018 : 07:47:07
The Realms has a pantheon of deities, belief in any one of them implicitly recognizes the existence of all the others.
To be sure, evil deities don't tend to attract many faithful outside their strongholds. But they are still often invoked by "nonbelievers" for minor benisons/malisons which relate to their portfolios - people might ask Shar for a small "blessing" of forgetfulness, pray that Beshaba's misfortune attends to a competitor, hope that Bane sends a "champion" to impose a sense of strong order within a democratic discord, offer a sacrifice to Umberlee for safe passage of their ships, etc. Evil gods are still gods, lol. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 09 Oct 2018 : 07:11:45
I have always had the fear/acknowledgment/respect count as worship. In the more generic sense, when anyone invokes a deities name and believes in them, it counts as worship. So wishing someone 'Tymora's Luck' counts the same way as saying 'Hope the Dark Sun does not shine on you today'.
Also, I think a lot of people do worship the dark gods. A lot of people worship Mask for example, as a lot of people steal...and not just bandits and pick pockets. Most all races have a 'dark side'. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 07 Oct 2018 : 14:24:35
Master Rupert,
quote:
Hiding their worship and hiding their existence is not the same thing. People have heard of Mask and Loviatar, but that doesn't mean that the average person knows any devotees of those deities.
I agree, and was curious what your thought was going to be, whether in agreement or not.
I feel it is as easy as simply putting iconography of divine symbols, a few reminders, i.e. stealing, torture marks, a few maimed individuals, a murder, some plague, or whatever, and enough fear throws people into a frenzy. For that reason, I feel it is remarkably easier for deities predicated on fear, hatred, injury, disease, etc. have a much easier chance of spreading their faith and maintaining that belief in them, as survival instincts always take precedence over the good. In fact, I think your point regarding The Bitch Queen is 100% spot on regarding that. That's why my campaigns have a much more prevalent awareness and involvement of evil deities, though they are less worshiped of course.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
quote:
I would say it being worshiped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.
To be intentionally pedantic, but not in a trollish or malicious manner:
In the case of Finder Wyvernspur, he had only a handful of Saurial's worshiping him, and he was known enough to be recognized in that area. Do you feel it is just a handful therefor?
Finder had influence in the Lost Vale area. He did not, at least in the mid-1370's, have any real influence anywhere else. He was working on that, but he's got centuries of being a minor regional power ahead of him, unless something major happens.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
What about followers of Mask or Loviatar? They are known for hiding their worship, and would not be "widely" known, thus their being hidden by necessity in order to not be run out of the area. How would it work for that kind of worship?
Hiding their worship and hiding their existence is not the same thing. People have heard of Mask and Loviatar, but that doesn't mean that the average person knows any devotees of those deities.
Remember, deities have to spread the word of the existence, in the Realms -- because if they don't, then no one knows about them, and the deity would thus get no attention. A god that no one knows about becomes a dead god pretty quickly.
Also, with some powers, they aren't as widely worshipped as they are feared and appeased. Umberlee is a great example of this -- she may not have a lot of worshippers, but just about any sailor is going to toss some money her way as appeasement, to keep her from focusing her attention on them. For the gods, there is power in fear.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Oct 2018 : 02:39:33
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
quote:
I would say it being worshiped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.
To be intentionally pedantic, but not in a trollish or malicious manner:
In the case of Finder Wyvernspur, he had only a handful of Saurial's worshiping him, and he was known enough to be recognized in that area. Do you feel it is just a handful therefor?
Finder had influence in the Lost Vale area. He did not, at least in the mid-1370's, have any real influence anywhere else. He was working on that, but he's got centuries of being a minor regional power ahead of him, unless something major happens.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
What about followers of Mask or Loviatar? They are known for hiding their worship, and would not be "widely" known, thus their being hidden by necessity in order to not be run out of the area. How would it work for that kind of worship?
Hiding their worship and hiding their existence is not the same thing. People have heard of Mask and Loviatar, but that doesn't mean that the average person knows any devotees of those deities.
Remember, deities have to spread the word of the existence, in the Realms -- because if they don't, then no one knows about them, and the deity would thus get no attention. A god that no one knows about becomes a dead god pretty quickly.
Also, with some powers, they aren't as widely worshipped as they are feared and appeased. Umberlee is a great example of this -- she may not have a lot of worshippers, but just about any sailor is going to toss some money her way as appeasement, to keep her from focusing her attention on them. For the gods, there is power in fear.
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 06 Oct 2018 : 22:15:09
Master Rupert,
quote:
I would say it being worshiped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.
To be intentionally pedantic, but not in a trollish or malicious manner:
In the case of Finder Wyvernspur, he had only a handful of Saurial's worshiping him, and he was known enough to be recognized in that area. Do you feel it is just a handful therefor?
What about followers of Mask or Loviatar? They are known for hiding their worship, and would not be "widely" known, thus their being hidden by necessity in order to not be run out of the area. How would it work for that kind of worship?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
So what do you feel leads a deity to officially having influence in an area? Is it a shrine, a temple, one person worshiping, or something else do you feel?
I would say it being worshipped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Oct 2018 : 16:38:49
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
So what do you feel leads a deity to officially having influence in an area? Is it a shrine, a temple, one person worshiping, or something else do you feel?
I would say it being worshipped widely enough that people would at least recognize the deity's name. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 06 Oct 2018 : 13:47:24
Master Rupert,
So what do you feel leads a deity to officially having influence in an area? Is it a shrine, a temple, one person worshiping, or something else do you feel?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
As to the power of deities in other regions, just look at the contemporary Realms: e.g. A Mulhorandi cleric would still receive spells from his/her deity even when visiting Icewind Dale, just as a paladin of Lathander would receive spells when crusading in Menzoberanzan. A deities powers to grant spells to worshippers are not limied to a culural region - only to 2e crystal shperes and with the new 3.5e planar structure that seems no longer something to be worried about. (see also page 4 of 2e Faiths and Avatars)
Granting spells in a region where there is no influence is not the same as having influence in a region... It's like being a cop traveling in another country. Sure, you've had the training, you've got your skills and your street sense... But you've no jurisdiction to do anything, because you're not a representative of that country's law.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 07:20:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, yes, she was. Pages 127 and 128 of On Hallowed Ground (a 2E Planescape accessory) explain how she was pushed out of the Greek pantheon, and because of that, she chose to become a single-spheric power in Toril. She may have been around since Toril was young, but she's not a native (though you could argue that her "daughters", Tymora and Beshaba, are native, since they were "born" on Toril).
That's true. It's also part of the reason why her domain in Olympus has now completely disappeared. Of course, there is some speculation that she possesses a domain somwhere in Arborea that hardly anyone knows about... and that this is where he majority of her power is devoted now.
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| warlockco |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 23:57:20
Yep, just sometimes with all this lore, things gets mixed up in the old skull. And just mildly confused some stuff together. I might have to start making a point of reading the material over every few years instead of once back when it first comes out then shelving it until needed.  |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 08:47:35
. . . causing Lathander to get all heartbroken and recently try something that's left Beshaba and Tymora both mildly miffed at him. (Of course, once the sisters realize they agree on something, that'll be a trigger for some grave catastrophe.  ) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 05:59:20
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, could have sworn She was born of Selune, or maybe I was thinking of Tymora. opps
Mystryl (Mystra's predecessor) came from Selūne.
Tymora and Beshaba are the remnants of Tyche. Tyche had become corrupted by Moander, and Selūne saw this and hit Tyche with a blast of her power. This caused Tyche to split into Tymora and Beshaba. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 03:20:12
Hmm, could have sworn She was born of Selune, or maybe I was thinking of Tymora. opps |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jan 2005 : 15:32:50
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tyche, who became Beshaba and Tymora...
Tyche wasn't an Interloper God in the Realms, her history is part of the Creation History of the Realms. Her name might be borrowed from the Greeks/Romans, but she was an original member of the Faerunian Pantheon since her creation.
Don't Forget that Oghma is an Interloper, him being a Greater Celtic God.
Actually, yes, she was. Pages 127 and 128 of On Hallowed Ground (a 2E Planescape accessory) explain how she was pushed out of the Greek pantheon, and because of that, she chose to become a single-spheric power in Toril. She may have been around since Toril was young, but she's not a native (though you could argue that her "daughters", Tymora and Beshaba, are native, since they were "born" on Toril).
At least a couple of the Greek gods wonder what happened to her, but since Ao won't let them into Realmspace, they've not yet found out where she is. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 02 Jan 2005 : 10:42:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tyche, who became Beshaba and Tymora...
Tyche wasn't an Interloper God in the Realms, her history is part of the Creation History of the Realms. Her name might be borrowed from the Greeks/Romans, but she was an original member of the Faerunian Pantheon since her creation.
Don't Forget that Oghma is an Interloper, him being a Greater Celtic God. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 18:31:58
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Thanks for all the responses, esp. about the Finnish gods.
And while it's OT, has anyone ever done any figuring on just when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended? I think there's a heck of a story there if anyone ever cared to tell it.
I don't believe that there's enough information about that to even try to determine a rough timeframe... All we know is that it happened some time after -339 DR (Jergal, Bane's predecessor, was worshipped in Netheril) and before 200 DR, when a temple of Bane in Calimport was destroyed in the Rogue Fires sweeping thru Calimport. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 17:16:23
Thanks for all the responses, esp. about the Finnish gods.
And while it's OT, has anyone ever done any figuring on just when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended? I think there's a heck of a story there if anyone ever cared to tell it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 20:04:51
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
Kuje,
Thanks for refreshing my memory where I read that bit about Apollo and Tyche. I'm starting to get worried about you though... Recalling in what book, in what edition, and the text of an obscure reference like that?  You're starting to scare me... 
When it comes to D&D I seem to recall things very well. :) I don't know how I can recall over 300 sourcebooks and over 300 D&D novels, but I do. Grin which is why I still slug it out on the WOTC boards because I am helpful over there even if I argue with everyone. 
Now, if only he could remember his first name as readily...  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 18:31:38
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
Kuje,
Thanks for refreshing my memory where I read that bit about Apollo and Tyche. I'm starting to get worried about you though... Recalling in what book, in what edition, and the text of an obscure reference like that? You're starting to scare me...
When it comes to D&D I seem to recall things very well. :) I don't know how I can recall over 300 sourcebooks and over 300 D&D novels, but I do. Grin which is why I still slug it out on the WOTC boards because I am helpful over there even if I argue with everyone. |
| Ty |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 16:16:39
Kuje,
Thanks for refreshing my memory where I read that bit about Apollo and Tyche. I'm starting to get worried about you though... Recalling in what book, in what edition, and the text of an obscure reference like that? You're starting to scare me... |
| Durak |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 16:00:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it is possible to alter time in the Realms... Besides, how would Cyric gain worship? His followers would have no spells or powers for 1700 years. Who's gonna worship a deity who won't be around until that newborn dragon over there has died of old age?
Sorry, i didnt mean that they would convert people back then to Cyris (that was just an example), I meant it as a prelude, so when he does become a god, he can say it was Prophesied backin the Days of Netheril that he would arise. The book wouldnt change anything in the past, but it would affect the present when made known.
Anyway this cant be done is what i am saying cause of the Laws of the Goddess of time at that time, and what i was also saying was maybe their was a law concerning time traveling of a gods' followers not in that region, having to convert to regional gods to get spells.
Wasnt there a theory in some D&D lore that you could change small things in the past, but time itself would wash away these changes.
Eg. You go to Karsus and point out his error, the way TIme would fix this is Karsus would not believe you, or you wouldnt get near him or you get imprisoned. OR you steal an item that seals a certain victory in a certain battle. Time would have it that you get robbed and the item turns up at the time needed through some means, they get caught or they get ambushed and the person who uses the item was in ambush party.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the gods of all the races that arent of the Creator races, or gods of humans from another world/demension/etc, not be classed as interlopers. From that Elven history Novel, Lloth followed the Elven Races to all the worlds they inhabited. But i am not sure if her children did. I am sure from that book a God of faerun, think was The Hunter was destroyed by either Malak or Lloth.
Seems to me some gods are in all realms and others are realm specific.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 07:35:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it is possible to alter time in the Realms...
I don't think it's truly impossible... just improbable. I'm sure some of the more well-travelled sages and scholars of the Realms have heard of the Temporal Prime.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 23:17:01
quote:
Originally posted by Durak
10 human god of the Netheril.
If this was based on the arcane series and time travel. Could the Goddess of Time, Mystryl, (i remember reading she spent more time enforcing time travel than magic, thus Karsus got so powerful in Magic causing her demise).
We know that gods back then were regionalised, could The Goddess have made a law governing Follwers of a god from another time coming into an area governed by a local pantheon, that their god would have no powers unless in the local pantheon. So as to stop some God like Cyris sending back follwers to create a worship of him fore he existed.
Sounds to me the gods were paranoid about new religions coming into their area.
Hope i make sense.
I don't think it is possible to alter time in the Realms... Besides, how would Cyric gain worship? His followers would have no spells or powers for 1700 years. Who's gonna worship a deity who won't be around until that newborn dragon over there has died of old age? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 19:55:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
As for someone's prior post regarding the Apollo/Tyche issue, I do recall reading that there was a hook introduced wherein Apollo became curious as to what happened to Tyche in Faerun (or something along those lines) but I don't think that it was ever official Realms canon.
It's in On Hallowed Ground, which is 2e which is also Planescape and so yes it is official FR canon until 3e changed FR's Planes since most everything in TSR's multiverse, and especially for Planescape, is official canon even though it was a different setting. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 18:21:21
Search offers this.
A Norse God
"Forseti- God of justice and conciliation. The son of Balder and Nanna. Forseti sits day after day settling the differences of gods and men, patiently listening to both sides of every question and finally pronouncing sentences so equitable that none ever find fault with his decrees. It is said that his eloquence and powers of persuasion are such that he always succeeds in touching the hearts of his listeners and that he has never failed to reconcile even the most bitter of foes. "
A German God
"The original Germanic god of war and the patron god of justice, the precursor of Odin. At the time of the Vikings, Tyr had to make way for Odin, who became the god of war himself. Tyr was by then regarded as Odin's son (or possibly of the giant Hymir). He is the boldest of the gods, who inspires courage and heroism in battle. Tyr is represented as a man with one hand, because his right hand was bitten off by the gigantic wolf Fenrir (in old-Norse, the wrist was called 'wolf-joint'). His attribute is a spear; the symbol of justice, as well as a weapon.
At the day of Ragnarok, Tyr will kill the hound Garm, the guardian of the hell, but will die from the wounds inflicted by the animal. In later mythology, "Tyr" became to mean "god". He is also known as Tīwaz, Tiw and Ziu.
Old Norse: Tżr; Old English: Tiw "
*wink* regional gods?
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| Ty |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 17:42:38
Regarding the original question:
I seem to recall somewhere that Kiputytto was an interloper deity of poison and plague that was killed by Talona.
As for someone's prior post regarding the Apollo/Tyche issue, I do recall reading that there was a hook introduced wherein Apollo became curious as to what happened to Tyche in Faerun (or something along those lines) but I don't think that it was ever official Realms canon.
I personally find it ironic that Tyr is the god of justice in the Realms when, depending upon what myth you ascribe to, Forseti was the god of justice in some Scandinavian myths. Granted, I am by no means a scholar of the subject, but I also seem to recall an alternative spelling of the name of Tyr as being Tuir.
Okay, I'm rambling. I just wanted to put in my shameless two cents on the Talona and Apollo matters. |
| Durak |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 16:41:06
10 human god of the Netheril.
If this was based on the arcane series and time travel. Could the Goddess of Time, Mystryl, (i remember reading she spent more time enforcing time travel than magic, thus Karsus got so powerful in Magic causing her demise).
We know that gods back then were regionalised, could The Goddess have made a law governing Follwers of a god from another time coming into an area governed by a local pantheon, that their god would have no powers unless in the local pantheon. So as to stop some God like Cyris sending back follwers to create a worship of him fore he existed.
Sounds to me the gods were paranoid about new religions coming into their area.
Hope i make sense. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 04:23:32
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
As to the power of deities in other regions, just look at the contemporary Realms: e.g. A Mulhorandi cleric would still receive spells from his/her deity even when visiting Icewind Dale, just as a paladin of Lathander would receive spells when crusading in Menzoberanzan. A deities powers to grant spells to worshippers are not limied to a culural region - only to 2e crystal shperes and with the new 3.5e planar structure that seems no longer something to be worried about. (see also page 4 of 2e Faiths and Avatars)
Granting spells in a region where there is no influence is not the same as having influence in a region... It's like being a cop traveling in another country. Sure, you've had the training, you've got your skills and your street sense... But you've no jurisdiction to do anything, because you're not a representative of that country's law. |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 20:35:00
Faerun, the Heartlands and former Netheril are not one and the same. Granted, Netheril encompassed and overlapped a large part with what is now considered the Heartlands, but Faerun stretches a bit further than that.
The Talfiric and Netherese pantheons were very close neighbors and probably had somewhat overlapping geographical areas. If it didn't, there would have been less reason for Tempus (Talfiric) to armwrestle Garagos (Netherese) to determine who would be the better deity of war.
Again, while I don't argue that the Netherese pantheon had about ten deities, there were more human deities to worship, even for a more open-minded Netherese, very likely in those areas where the Netherese sphere of influence bordered on other cultural regions.
As to the power of deities in other regions, just look at the contemporary Realms: e.g. A Mulhorandi cleric would still receive spells from his/her deity even when visiting Icewind Dale, just as a paladin of Lathander would receive spells when crusading in Menzoberanzan. A deities powers to grant spells to worshippers are not limied to a culural region - only to 2e crystal shperes and with the new 3.5e planar structure that seems no longer something to be worried about. (see also page 4 of 2e Faiths and Avatars) |
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