| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 23:48:44
Well met!
It is my understanding that the folk of Calimshan are a short, slim, and dusky skinned race of men that accompanied the Djen into the Realms. They founded and peopled the human realms of Cormashan and Mir, and brought the two together in the Calimshan Empire ... of which Tethyr and Amn were emirates.
The folk that we tend to think of when we think of Tethyr or Amn is the Tethyrian stock ... taller, stockier and fairer than the Calish-ite. And it was this ethnic type that ultimate throw off the rule of Calimshan to found the independent kingdoms of Tethyr and Amn.
So, ethnicity aside, would it be fair to say that Tethyr was founded by folk who were, culturally speaking, Calish-ite?
Is this the same ethnicity as we see throughout the Western Heartlands and those parts of the Moonshaes dominated by the Ffolk?
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| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 17:50:30
Learned Scribe Beowulf,
The Calishites did originally come with the Djen, from Zakhara. (Empires of the Shining Sea)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Well met!
It is my understanding that the folk of Calimshan are a short, slim, and dusky skinned race of men that accompanied the Djen into the Realms. They founded and peopled the human realms of Cormashan and Mir, and brought the two together in the Calimshan Empire ... of which Tethyr and Amn were emirates.
The folk that we tend to think of when we think of Tethyr or Amn is the Tethyrian stock ... taller, stockier and fairer than the Calish-ite. And it was this ethnic type that ultimate throw off the rule of Calimshan to found the independent kingdoms of Tethyr and Amn.
So, ethnicity aside, would it be fair to say that Tethyr was founded by folk who were, culturally speaking, Calish-ite?
Is this the same ethnicity as we see throughout the Western Heartlands and those parts of the Moonshaes dominated by the Ffolk?
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| Forlorn |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 20:58:28
Thanks for the lore and ideas everybody, esp Steven. Thank you,man you help very much.
There will be a war in my campaign to make a change, to show my player there is a part of human nature maybe worse than all the monsters combined together and to show them a thorne of good means nothing in terms of power of a nation and profit of nobles. Monsters kept busy them but now Calimshan has a shot and I have a plan.
Thank you all again, I apperciated every word. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 17:18:25
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
Well, I have several questions.
1-How large is the army of Tethyr, Calimshan and does Amn have the military power to take over Murann again?
Data and information in terms of troop numbers and type have never been published in any FR products. So there are no 'correct' answers to your question.
George is correct here; depending on the era in which the material was written, troop numbers were either irrelevant and undetailed or the only information you'd get on a country. For me, it matters very little the actual numbers of peoples in the military, as I'm not that well versed in either tactics or strategics and wouldn't know what I'd need to account for or in what numbers.
In general, though, Tethyr's military is in better shape and greater numbers than Amn at present (though tired still from the Reclamation Wars and patrols to de-monstrify the eastern half of the country and/or keep the nasties within the walls of Shoonach).
Calimshan, as always, has the potential for the largest army in the region simply because its vast slave populations have no say against being conscripted into the military. The Syl-Pasha doesn't do this, both because he needs the support of his pashas (who want to keep their slaves themselves, not donate to a civic project) and he doesn't want to arm more slaves than freedmen.
I can't recall if I put a Spartacus like rebellion in the midst of the histories, but if not, something within the past 200 years could be a cautionary tale against arming too many slaves without the wherewithal to keep them in their place.
Then again, the Tethyrian rebellion is still enough of a lesson for Calishites to not want to see armed slaves outside an arena.
quote:
quote:
2-What was the meeting between Luskan pirate lords and syl-pasha about?
To quote the actor Julia Roberts, "What do you want it to be?". This was a plot hook that Steven left in the mix, unexplained. He'll no doubt pop up now and give us the lowdown.
No lowdown here. It's an open plot thread for GMs to do with as they please. If you need ideas, it could be something like:
--"I'll pay a handsome stipend if you harrass Tethyrian shipping lanes in favor of attacking those flying my flag."
--"Take this and during a feint on some Baldur's Gate ships, plant this evidence so I can get a rival out of my way."
--"If you should happen to get anything out of Murrann during the siege, know that we'll pay double what other buyers for information on certain peoples or items of interest...."
That help?
quote:
quote:
3-What is the Twisted Rune? Do they manipulate things secretly or just control the syl-pasha and the other powerful figures? Do they have any competion controlling Calimshan?
Information on the Twisted Rune can be found in the Lands of Intrigue boxed set and the Empires of the Shining Sea boxed set. They were originally mentioned inj the old FOR4 Code of the Harpers accessory. They manipulate things VERY secretly. They do not control the syl-pasha (yet) but do control some of his nearest and dearest. Do they have competition? Sure. The Rundeen are likely rivals, the Knights of the Shield would be interested in extending their influence in Calimshan and of course, there are the 'good' groups: the worshippers of Anachtyr and Ilmater, the Janessar and (as much as they can although their influence is minimal) the Harpers.
Then again, depending on your level of love for conspiracy theories, the Twisted Rune could already be in indirect control of the Rundeen and other groups. The Knights of the Shield are their most likely local rivals, as they have the Shield guiding them.
Then again, what's been noted about the Shield could be a ruse established by the Rune centuries ago, and they're playing Lord Hhune and Company like prized fiddles. 
Truthfully, the Twisted Rune is a cabal of undead wizards with two main goals--the study of magic and the wish to be left safely alone to do that. They joined forces and play their power games simply to insulate themselves from harm and to amuse themselves.
They are, in many ways, my homage to the Illuminati with a fantasy twist. If you want them to be a more standard group to fight, that's your call. I've pretty much said what I need to on them, IMO. 
quote:
quote:
4-Does the Twisted Rune benefit in a war between Calimshan and Tethyr?
Hard to say and any answer to this question would just be a guess - which is just as good as any conclusion you draw regarding this. So basically, if you want your campaign to go in this direction: do it. No FR product will come out in the next 3 or so years to invalidate it.
Yes and no. They benefit (just as they did when they helped instigate the Sythillisian attacks on Amn) by distracting everyone's attentions and keeping interests away from them. If anyone starts taking a major interest in undead and/or old magics around the LOI / EoSS, they'll start watching that person and be sure to find ways to distract them and draw them off the trail of the Rune or destroy them in ways that don't lead back to them or their agents.
One reason they'd support a strong Tethyr--the Queen's wish to see the monsters out of eastern Tethyr and to make the areas around Shoonach safe works in their favor. Living heroes wandering through Shoonach can free up Shoon artifacts that they themselves cannot enter the Fallen City to retrieve (as it's a roach motel for undead, and I suspect at least three minor members of the cabal might yet be therein, fuming about their fate). Once items leave Shoonach, the Rune may unleash its agents to claim those items. This is a favored tactic by Frostrune Rakesk, who has a serious fascination in Shoon era magics.
Still, if you're hankering for a war between Calimshan and Tethyr, have at it.
Steven |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:19:52
Thanks, George.
Not much help but enough for me. I hope someone can guess logically about the military sources of Tethyr and Calimshan. I opened a new topic under Forgotten realms chat so I hope something that can be useful for me will be posted there |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 00:07:16
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
Well, I have several questions.
1-How large is the army of Tethyr, Calimshan and does Amn have the military power to take over Murann again?
Data and information in terms of troop numbers and type have never been published in any FR products. So there are no 'correct' answers to your question.
quote:
2-What was the meeting between Luskan pirate lords and syl-pasha about?
To quote the actor Julia Roberts, "What do you want it to be?". This was a plot hook that Steven left in the mix, unexplained. He'll no doubt pop up now and give us the lowdown.
quote:
3-What is the Twisted Rune? Do they manipulate things secretly or just control the syl-pasha and the other powerful figures? Do they have any competion controlling Calimshan?
Information on the Twisted Rune can be found in the Lands of Intrigue boxed set and the Empires of the Shining Sea boxed set. They were originally mentioned inj the old FOR4 Code of the Harpers accessory. They manipulate things VERY secretly. They do not control the syl-pasha (yet) but do control some of his nearest and dearest. Do they have competition? Sure. The Rundeen are likely rivals, the Knights of the Shield would be interested in extending their influence in Calimshan and of course, there are the 'good' groups: the worshippers of Anachtyr and Ilmater, the Janessar and (as much as they can although their influence is minimal) the Harpers.
quote:
4-Does the Twisted Rune benefit in a war between Calimshan and Tethyr?
Hard to say and any answer to this question would just be a guess - which is just as good as any conclusion you draw regarding this. So basically, if you want your campaign to go in this direction: do it. No FR product will come out in the next 3 or so years to invalidate it.
-- George Krashos
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| Forlorn |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 20:51:18
Maybe I should open a new topic under a more fitting title.
I nearly invaded Beowulf's topic.
Sorry man. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 14:11:08
Well, I have several questions.
1-How large is the army of Tethyr, Calimshan and does Amn have the military power to take over Murann again?
2-What was the meeting between Luskan pirate lords and syl-pasha about?
3-What is the Twisted Rune? Do they manipulate things secretly or just control the syl-pasha and the other powerful figures? Do they have any competion controlling Calimshan?
4-Does the Twisted Rune benefit in a war between Calimshan and Tethyr?
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| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 21:53:54
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
PS: Remember also that if Calimshan acts openly or makes military moves on Tethyr, Amn (or Kzelter) would be more than happy to take advantage of overextended forces to reclaim Trailstone and Riatavin, if not take other territories as well, abandoning teh fight vs. the monsters in favor of quick wins. Also, they have a nice buffer from trouble, as NW Tethyr bumps against the monsters, rather than their own forces.
Hmm... The push from Amn doesn't seem very likley as they don't have much military weight to push with anymore. The other being that the monster controlled lands find themselves in easily defensible position with the Wealdath on one side - an ancient forst that is difficult terrain to negotiate for any army - and the Small Teeth at the other end.
Trailstone or Riatavin could be the easy victories, but at the same token that the Wealdath serves the monster haunted lands, it also serves Tethyr as a 'low maintenance' border. No need for massive armies to patrol, other then the trade road. Therefore the eastern duchies can count on more troops.
PS. Noting the discussion in the thread above, I see an ommision - maybe beacuse of the secretive nature - but the Twisted Rune is behind most of the events in the Empires of the Sands region. It hasn't received much credit in the new edition... |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 19 Oct 2004 : 08:43:31
Thank a lot, Steven Schend.
You made the political relations and ambitions of Calimshan very clear for me, thanks again. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 19 Oct 2004 : 00:25:59
quote:
Originally posted by Forlorn
I wanna ask a question a little apart from the topic so sorry but I find it hard to handle my curiosity:).
My quiestion is; does Calimshan have any ambition of seizing some of the Tethyr regions especially Myratma and Zazespur? I read in FRCS that Myratma is influenced by the culture of Calim instead of Tethyr and in book or source I cannot recall right now that Zazespur is also mor Calim than Tethyrian.
And seeing that Calimshan ruled a large including including Mir, Tethyr and Iltkazar(I don't know that kingdom) I think that an idea of reconstructing that empire might be a pivotal point in a campaign.
My second question is how sane this kind of idea might can be.
I will be more than happy if someone can answer my questions eventhough they may seem unrelated to the topic.
Ambitions to conquer Tethyr? Of course, undoubtedly. Such ambitions have been in every syl-pasha's heart since the fall of the Shoon.
Capability of conquering Tethyr? Possibly, if not probably. How long they could hold it and defend it is another story.
Feasability of conquering Tethyr? Middling to none, especially given the friends Tethyr has made (Cormyr, Waterdeep, trading partners in Vilhon, etc.)
There is little sanity of wanting to reestablish the empire of Shoon (or even just its landed areas), at least partially because the corruption of that empire is still in some memory, if not just myth.
Such a goal--at least militarily--is beyond the syl-pasha's plans. He is a patient man who'd rather conquer it bloodlessly by inter-marrying his grandchildren wtih the triplet heirs to the throne, a political move that is both feasible and profitable. The queen can't dismiss it out of hand, so it stays on the table even if she begs off deciding, claiming northern customs that prevent arranged marriages until a certain age.
Zaranda, despite misgivings about giving even an inch to Calimshan, may not always be in a financial place to ignore or rebuff gifts and benefits coming from el Pesarkhal. Thus, he can easily provide lots and lots and lots of trade and beneficial allowances to Tethyr, perhaps even so far as offering to help them reclaim the cities they lost to the Church of Bane; like any good Calishite, he'll keep feeding out line (via money/favors) and eventually he'll start asking for favors and money in return.
Thus, with that sort of thinking behind how I built el Pesarkhal, it'll be a long, long time before he moves openly to take any Tethyrian territory.
Steven
A sage is only someone with a better library and memory than you.
PS: Remember also that if Calimshan acts openly or makes military moves on Tethyr, Amn (or Kzelter) would be more than happy to take advantage of overextended forces to reclaim Trailstone and Riatavin, if not take other territories as well, abandoning teh fight vs. the monsters in favor of quick wins. Also, they have a nice buffer from trouble, as NW Tethyr bumps against the monsters, rather than their own forces.
PPS: Of course, if your campaign allies Amn & Calimshan to either crush Tethyr or the Sythillisian Empire (or both by driving the monsters down into Tethyr), all bets are off. That is the only feasible way in which I could see Calimshan taking action vs. Tethyr--alliances geared to make others take the bulk of the damage (i.e. Amn, Church of Bane out for more cities, Nelanther Pirates en masse, etc.).
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| Steven Schend |
Posted - 19 Oct 2004 : 00:08:58
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Not sure I understand why people think RoF and EotSS clash ...
 `cuz I'm a lazy bum who hasn't read it as much as scanning it for the pictures and vowing to read it more fully when I have the time. (I did read the elven stuff and half-elven stuff, as it pertains to something I'm tinkering with, as you well know.)
The art / pictures are not indicative at all of what you provided, IMO, as every body's as lily-white as way too many adventurers. That's where I scratched my head and wondered why Tethyrians looks almost the same as Waterdhavians. <shrug>
My bad, Eric.  Sorry if it made you think I doubted you, man. You're one of the best, man--I really mean that. Now if only we'd get more agreement between art orders and what's in the text at times, hm?
Steven
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| Kajehase |
Posted - 18 Oct 2004 : 23:55:12
Calimshan most certainly has such ambitions. I even think there's one place in a sourcebook where it says that the Syl-Pasha wishes to learn from Tethyr and then subsume the country and make it part of his own empire. Give me a fe hours when I can look through my books and I'll even give you the exact quote. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 18 Oct 2004 : 20:42:12
I wanna ask a question a little apart from the topic so sorry but I find it hard to handle my curiosity:).
My quiestion is; does Calimshan have any ambition of seizing some of the Tethyr regions especially Myratma and Zazespur? I read in FRCS that Myratma is influenced by the culture of Calim instead of Tethyr and in book or source I cannot recall right now that Zazespur is also mor Calim than Tethyrian.
And seeing that Calimshan ruled a large including including Mir, Tethyr and Iltkazar(I don't know that kingdom) I think that an idea of reconstructing that empire might be a pivotal point in a campaign.
My second question is how sane this kind of idea might can be.
I will be more than happy if someone can answer my questions eventhough they may seem unrelated to the topic. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 18 Oct 2004 : 02:36:57
Not sure I understand why people think RoF and EotSS clash ...
"Tethyrians are of medium build and height, although taller and braoder in build than most Calishites."
For a melting pot culture, one would expect they would average "medium size". Note that Calishites in the old refs (FRE, for instance) were always described as being slightly smaller, so in comparison, Tethyrians are slightly bigger.
"Their skin tends to have a dusky hue ..."
In other words, I was describing Vajra and folk like here, at least as she appeared in the comics. (Although one could always make Vajra of Calishite ethnicity, as they make up a big part of Tethyr's human population.)
"...although on average they are increasingly fairer in complexion the farther north one travels along the Sword Coast, reflecting a decreasing fraction of Calishite heritage and an increasing fraction of Illuskan and Low Netherese ancestry."
In other words, those closest to Calimshan are darker in hue, and those closer to the North are lighter in hue.
"Tethyrian hair and eye color varies widely, with brown hair and blue eyes being most common."
Anything goes.
Perhaps the problem is that people are reading "Tethyrian" as inhabitants of Tethyr? The inhabitants of Tethyr are ethnic Calishites and ethnic Tethyrians. However, ethnic Tethyrians are found as far south as Calimport and as far north as the Silver Marches, so it's a lot of space. Remember that 50% of Waterdeep's human population is ethnic Tethyrian.
--Eric
PS As a point of trivia, I actually called this ethnic group "Tethen" in my turnover, which is more consistent with the original sources and perhaps might have avoided some confusion. That said, it clearly states where Tethyrians live in RoF, page 102. |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 17 Oct 2004 : 00:37:25
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
I'm a little confused as to why Tethyrians as per Races of Faerun seem a whole shade or three lighter in skin tone than I'd expected.
Having just combed through the history in your EoSS, I would also expect a duskier skin-tone in Tethyr, perhaps Amn, comparable to,say, Spain or southern Italy following the Moorish invasions. Defintely dark hair and eyes, and even dark skin the closer to Calimshan, but with the height and stockiness of the original barbarian.
Speaking of the proto-Tethyrian barbarian, could we not take their ethnic appearance and root culture as very similiar to that foundamongst the Ffolk of the Moonshaes?
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Tethyr, in my mind, is a lot of Scotland and Spain amalgamated together--the rough mountainous highland territories on the north and eastern ends of the country, etc. The Wall on the Velen Peninsula is a dead give-away, given that I had a failed attempt to build a Hadrian's Wall homage there--the original home of the primary tribes of Tethyr.
I noted alot of historical parallels with Rome's early relations with the Celts and Teutonic tribes ... with the Calishites playing the role of Rome and the Celto-Teutonic folk played by the Tethyrians. The dates even seem to correspond to some degree, right up to 449 DR/AD when the Roman province of Britain fell to the various Teutonic tribes.
What I'm really curious about is the art and architecture of the cities of Tethyr and Amn. Most of these cities were built and rebuilt by various Calishites from the late Old Kingdom onward. They pass back and forth between Calishite and Tethyrian hands from about -400 DR to 0 DR when the Shoon Dynasty secures a hold on them and maintains the grip until 449 DR, when when the barbarians solidify their grip on the regions.
So, in these cities, as we have them today in 14th century Faerun, are we looking at mostly Shoonite architecture? Shoon tempered by a style similar to that displayed in Caer Callidyr? Perhaps something like the Gothic style, in the sense that it evolved out of the Roman using Roman techniques? Or have they evolved their own traditions in this regard? Perhaps something with an elfin influence?
I suppose alot of this might depend on when the last time the cities in question suffered a great degree of destruction. And unfortunately, while the EoSS is excellent in the information it provides on art and architecture, patrons of the arts, and what not, it only allows me to eyeball the architectural developement of so many cities.
Thanks for your time! |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 21:31:55
George pretty much has it, so there's little for me to say unless this provokes more questions.
I'm a little confused as to why Tethyrians as per Races of Faerun seem a whole shade or three lighter in skin tone than I'd expected. My benchmark was Vajra Valmejar from the AD&D comic as per Tethyrian standards, but according to ROF, they're just as pale as the average Sword Coaster. <shrug>
In general, yes, Calishites are immigrants and the Tethyrian base was there before them (and the elves and dwarves, but not necessarily before the dragons).
Tethyr, in my mind, is a lot of Scotland and Spain amalgamated together--the rough mountainous highland territories on the north and eastern ends of the country, etc. The Wall on the Velen Peninsula is a dead give-away, given that I had a failed attempt to build a Hadrian's Wall homage there--the original home of the primary tribes of Tethyr.
Calimshan, my memory's fuzzy as I've not had reason to go back and reread EoSS in a long time. Still, if there's questions, I'll try and help, but know my time here's a bit spotty over the next week or so as I struggle to finish lots of projects.
SES |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 01:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
So, ethnicity aside, would it be fair to say that Tethyr was founded by folk who were, culturally speaking, Calish-ite?
Umm, no it wouldn't. The Tethyrians have been in the region of Tethyr (then the elven realm of Keltormir) since c. -14000 DR (see FRCS, p.266 and Empires of the Shining Sea, p.39). They pre-date the Calishite humans who came as slaves of Calim and later Memnon. The Tethyrians were always "barbarians" to the Calishites and were organised along clan lines. Steven Schend is the expert here, but I think he tried to convey a feeling like the Scottish Highland clans of our world. In terms of culture, I think they absorbed some of the technology of the Calishites and other 'higher', developmental aspects of their society, but I don't think that the Calsihite cultural influence on the Tethyrians was widespread, or pervasive.
quote:
Is this the same ethnicity as we see throughout the Western Heartlands and those parts of the Moonshaes dominated by the Ffolk?
The Ffolk are dealt with in Races of Faerun, p.106. They are said to be (mostly) an isolated group of Tethyrians who arrived there in 467 DR or so. There appears to have been an 'original' Ffolk racial group, but they were absorbed, subsumed into the Tethyrian racial identity.
-- George Krashos
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