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Originally posted by ericlboyd

The important question about the Foes of the Fang is not what were/are they up to, but WHY are they up to it.

<Evil Grin>

--Eric

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Originally posted by Steven Schend
I'll give them some thought and get back to you; I'm gearing up to head out of town for the rest of the week, and won't be able to answer on this before the weekend. Send me a `ping' on Friday and I'll try and wring something out of my brain later.

Steven

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

As for the nobility thing, I'll happily defer to Ed on that; anyone generate a link/find that old post?

Steven

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As for ‘junior’ noble families: the ‘youngest’ of them were elevated in 1254 DR, and Waterdeep has actually ‘lost’ two noble families since then (Zoar and Gildeggh, “Outcast” [exiled] in 1273). There have been three noble families who ALMOST went extinct, and some evidence that nobles or Lords of Waterdeep quickly arranged some marriages to make no noble house disappeared -- both to avoid pressure from any ambitious merchants clamoring that “there’s now room for me, isn’t there?” and more importantly to avoid having dozens of mountebanks or serious individuals showing up for centuries to come, claiming to be the “long lost heir” of this or that noble house (“so where’s my villa? what have you done with it? You OWE me for it!”).
‘Junior’ in this sense really means that certain noble families play a sneering-on-others game (more often rooted in fancy than in reality) that their bloodlines are older and therefore better than those of other nobility. In truth, they’re ALL jumped-up wealthy merchants, and some of them have even lost most of their wealth since being ennobled. It’s akin to two ancient, toothless old men living in adjacent tumbledown shacks in a real-world village, but one of them looking down on the other because “his family wasn’t originally from these parts.”
Faced with an outsider, however ambitious, the nobles WILL form a united front, a fortress wall (“whatever happens, gotta keep the rabble out”). Again, you can MARRY into the nobility (especially if you happen to be good-looking OR very rich, of either gender), but although I quite understand that your player doesn’t want to be a mere courtier, I’m afraid he or she is out of luck unless they can marry into, successfully dispose of and impersonate a particular noble, or successfully convince a particular noble family that s/he IS a long-lost relation (and s/he’d better be ready to withstand hired magical probings and various testings, and be pleasant to boot [because if unpleasant, a dagger in the ribs and a corner of earth in the deepest cellar will be MUCH easier than feeding and clothing and putting up with him/her].
My records tell me that the Phull and Zulpair families were the last to be ennobled, and they seem to have managed it by identical methods: 1. Succeed at trade enough to be staggeringly wealthy. 2. Buy up huge amounts of real estate in Waterdeep, especially in North Ward and Sea Ward. 3. Attend all the revels, actingly in a quiet, toady-like, subservient manner, and offer money to help with ‘problems’ discussed by grumbling nobles at said functions (as GIFTS and NOT loans). 4. VERY quietly loan monies to desperate noble houses. 5. Financially bail out/further the stated aims of a few Masked Lords (“cleaning up” firetrap warehouses in Dock Ward, having the sewers fixed, the harbor dredged, the city walls expanded and repaired, allowing the Lords to take credit rather than yourself. 6. Tell everyone, over and over again at revels (which you now attend dressing and speaking just as much like ‘real nobles’), that you care deeply for “the good of Waterdeep” and “we must all think of the good of Waterdeep, so that it will be as great as it is now a thousand years hence.” 7. When desperate noble houses discreetly approach you for even more money than you’ve given them before [in Step 4], willingly hand them more, and say, “This should be a gift, not a loan, but not being noble myself, I can’t insult you like that. If we were both nobles, hey, all you’d have to do would be hint at the need, and this would always be just a gift.” 8. Start marrying your daughters (made as beautiful as magic can make them, and trained in noble speech and deportment as well as money to pay retired or fired servants can achieve) into noble houses, and accompany them with staggeringly large dowries. 9. Hire spies to find out who just one or two Masked Lords are, and befriend them, financially helping their businesses. 10. Bribe some of the disaffected young wastrel nobles to verbally champion your family at revels as “acting like nobles should.” 11. Bribe some servants, ditto [do both 10 and 11 through intermediaries, of course]. 12. Bankroll some young, disaffected nobles to pursue their dreams, however foolish or zany such schemes may be. Befriend THEM. 13. Watch for financial troubles among the nobles and try to repeat Step 4, aiming for a repeat of Step 7.
And, all this time, DON’T build a luxury villa of your own, DON’T openly challenge any noble, and NEVER openly ask to be a noble or pretend to be one.
Eventually, someone facing ruin will remember your Step 7 and start whispering that you should be ennobled. DO NOTHING (unless you can get real control over a few Masked Lords, and add their voices to the whispering). Let it happen.
As you can see, this takes KINGDOMS full of money (the Zulpairs found a remote island where monsters had devoured a dwarf clan and then perished for lack of food, leaving entire caverns full of already-mined rubies ownerless) and GENERATIONS of time, plus NOT MAKING A SINGLE MISTAKE. That’s why it’s never been done since. It worked for the Phulls and the Zulpairs (who have been scorned by many nobles ever since) because they practically bought up all of North Ward between them -- and then GAVE IT AWAY, property by property, to various nobles in winning their support for ennobling House Phull and House Zulpair.
So there’s your template. Your ambitious player had better find some way of living for centuries and (like Khelben) somehow concealing the fact that he’s actually the same guy (can’t have any noble whispers of “he’s really undead, he MUST be -- AND HE’S BEDDING MY DAUGHTER!”). Oh, yes, and becoming the most fabulously wealthy individual in all the Realms, of course.
Yes, that could be the basis of a long-running campaign. :}

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Originally posted by kuje31

Hiya Steven,

Any chance you have any words about the Foes of the Fang? Did they ever made it to Castle Khommel? Or what happened to them?, etc... :)

Also I was curious about how someone could go about becoming a noble in 'Deep. :)

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by kuje31

Guess it slipped my mind then. :)

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Senility does that to people.

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Originally posted by kuje31

Guess it slipped my mind then. :)

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Blueblade

kuje, regarding how one becomes noble in Waterdeep: before we go over this ground again, have a look at the "Questions for Ed Greenwood" thread in Novels. Early on, Ed answered this VERY extensively (several posts).

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Yeah, I think I saved that as a text file, too...

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Originally posted by Blueblade

kuje, regarding how one becomes noble in Waterdeep: before we go over this ground again, have a look at the "Questions for Ed Greenwood" thread in Novels. Early on, Ed answered this VERY extensively (several posts).

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

I don't recall what Sam's levels/classes were et al, but I always saw him as a mercantile wizard, able to do things with money and resources that astounded other merchants. I dropped a few hints of plots to do with him and his family in CALIMPORT, but beyond that, I can't say (NDAs and all that jazz).

Here's a suggestion though--Yes, he's willing to run slaves; did we ever say to and from where he shipped them? Could be he's running an Underground Railroad of sorts, funneling money for high-minded folks to "buy slaves" in Skullport or Waterdeep and then they're set free in the North or wherever. He might also be working with the Lords' Alliance or the Harpers to "sell slaves" in the south and he's helping infiltrate these areas with people to foment rebellion, etc. As he's only the middle-man, he's got plausible deniability if anything should happen, and he still gets to play both sides against the middle.

Just a stray thought and highly unofficial, mind you.

SES

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Also, Mirt and Laeral are drinking buddies; Arun's son has worked with Mirt and respects him, but their personalities grate when forced to be together for more than 10 minutes. Khelben much prefers the company of Brian and, oddly enough, Sammereza in social contexts; neither of them has ever much warmed to Kitten, as she perhaps reminds them of too many of their own foibles from centuries past.

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Speaking of Sammereza, what is your (totally unofficial, obviously) spin on him? I've been thinking that with his habit of traveling far, he's prolly a powerful enough arcane spellcaster to be able to teleport. Alignment-wise, he'd have to be CN at best, since he'll sell slaves. Stat wise, I'd give him a pretty good Charisma... That's all based on the little blurb of info we have on him.

Have you anything you'd like to throw into the mix?

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Also, Mirt and Laeral are drinking buddies; Arun's son has worked with Mirt and respects him, but their personalities grate when forced to be together for more than 10 minutes. Khelben much prefers the company of Brian and, oddly enough, Sammereza in social contexts; neither of them has ever much warmed to Kitten, as she perhaps reminds them of too many of their own foibles from centuries past.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Ahh, but Kyri makes a great Lord of Waterdeep on a couple of fronts. Firstly, as a Moonstar, she allows Khelben to indirectly influence the leadership of Waterdeep. Sure he can still catch up with Mirt for a tankard and probe him on why they have allowed a Thayan enclave into the city, but isn't it better if the desires and wonts of Khelben, don't actually come from Khelben, but a pretty half-elven lass?

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Also, as a half-elf, she would be the sort of de-facto representative of elven interests in the City of Splendors,

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especially now that Danilo has handed in his helm as well. Waterdeep has a long past, longer than most people think and that past is elven to the core. Similarly, the city has always had links with Evermeet (facilitating the Retreat) and is one of the centres of elven culture and beliefs in the North (despite the fact that it is a human city) - look at Ed's recent "Realmslore" stuff on the WotC website re the four young elves of Waterdeep who want to re-found and elven realm. Kyri would make a great Lord of Waterdeep. Maybe she got a promotion but we just haven't heard about it yet ...

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

What I would have done differently was to simply reprint what Ed already had in place for the Lords and focused more on the agents of theirs that you'd be more apt to meet. Thus, I'd not add Danilo or the halfling to the Lords' roster (or bump them up in number), but you'd have gotten more on each of the Lords, what they see as their roles for the city, how they approach their duties (and keep their true civic roles secret), and mayhaps a note or two on important things each has done for the city over time. Let's face it--it's more useful to the GM and players to know more about the Red Sashes or Force Grey (aka the "Justice League of Waterdeep" ) than to hear about people you're rarely apt to meet.

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Love Kyriani Agrivar all to pieces, despite some of the early cliches in her development (character stuff in issues #1-9 or so). That said, she'd be redundant as a Lord. In character, usefulness, placement, and access to people, she overlaps what Durnan, Kitten, and a few others bring to the table (Ear to Dock Ward, disarmingly charismatic female, etc.). She's far better use, IMO, as one of Khelben's Tel'teukiira/Moonstars and in thinking broad term. In other words, Kyri to me is like Khelben--she's no longer just worried about her own neighborhood; loves Waterdeep and defends Selune's Smile ardently, but she's helping ol' Blackstaff juggle far bigger stuff than just keeping the peace in the City of Splendors.

Of course, the gods only know if I'll ever get to tell Moonstar stories, so this is all colored by wishful thinking. If you want her to be a Lord, so be it. Frankly, she'd be a good one to work within the Lords' Alliance as well to cement things across the Sword Coast, especially given her connections to the powers in Tethyr.

Steven

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What would you have done differently with the Lords? I'm quite interested in this one, since a side project of mine is working up full-on write-ups on some of my own, non-canon Lords of Waterdeep (which I eventually plan on posting here).

I've long been a fan of the Lords of Waterdeep, since I think it an interesting governmental system. That's why, as I've said elsewhere in these forums, I've collected all the data I can find on the Lords, and it's why I decided to create some of my own.

BTW, on that topic, what do you, a fellow fan of Kyri, think of my idea of making her a Lord?

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Well, without stepping on the toes of the current Waterdeep designer (for next year's release) or Ed & Elaine's new book as well (which I'm dying to see even more than most), let's continue discussing City Of Splendors. I'm more than happy to answer more questions on that product as well as muse aloud of things not expressly written therein. Bear in mind that I'll only be able to answer things as pertain to what I wrote....egad...10 years ago.....

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Looking at some of it in retrospect, I'm unhappy with it now, as I'm not the same writer/designer I was then. Now, I'd never foist Gemidan on the Realms, nor would I have tinkered as much with the Lords (in the interests of "it's not broken, so don't fix it").

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

Then again, in rereading parts of it, I'm getting some evil thoughts on followup plots...but those may have to remain my own to prevent tripping over NDAs or other people's work. Still, I suspect no one else is doing anything with the Adventurers' Quarter, as that's my little corner of H20Deep.

SES

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My only real answer as to why I'm not as enamored with Gemidan as I once was is simply age. I'm 12 years older than when I wrote City of Splendors, and the idea just doesn't appeal to me as much. He's far too many exceptions to the norm (prodigy at young age, apprentice to Khelben, adventurer without supervision, etc.) and the idea becomes too "twee" for me now. <shrug> He's still an interesting character, but I'd have to find a lot of things to do to/with him before he'd interest me greatly again.

The initial concept was to surprise Khelben and challenge him, as he barely has the patience to deal with young adults, let alone children; this is true at least publicly and in the context of his teaching students; some nobles have learned that one of the few ways to pry even the smallest of secrets out of the Lord Mage of Waterdeep is to send their smallest child toddling over to ask innocent questions of him while he smolders in the corner at a nobles' revel he could not avoid. Granted, Khelben is aware of this, and rarely tips his hand truly, but while every adult is rightfully afraid of his presence, he takes care not to terrify the young (or at least not until they are old enough to understand their own actions and queries).

For the character himself, I envisioned him as a prodigy and a huge pain in the ass for everyone--Dennis the Menace with magic, for all intents and purposes. He'd be the classic look-before-you-leap hero and those with whom he adventures spend more time getting him out of scrapes than actually planning things. In short, he was a goofy little idea that could be fun in short spurts within a game, but over time, the idea just comes off as "game bits of humor" rather than solid world-building and real character creation. If he works within the scope of your campaign, by all means use him. I'm just not attached to him any longer.

Be well, be happy, and be yourself.

Steven
It is never too late to be what you might have been.
(George Elliot/Mary Ann Evans)

PS: If you want to, repost this at candlekeep.com.

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Originally posted by DDH_101

Wooly, I think that's the one. But I remember looking at the City of Splendors set and there was a picture of a follower of Ghaundaur oozing out from the sewers in a half slime/human form.

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Originally posted by DDH_101

I'm not sure 100% about this but isn't there an evil cult of Ghaundaur somewhere in the sewers of Waterdeep? Perhaps you can put that into your adventure.

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