| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Phantom_Lord |
Posted - 08 Sep 2004 : 08:28:14
I needed some comprehensive info on this quasi-power. Pre-ToT of course.
For example, the origins of Xvim are not entirely clear some say his mum was a demon some say she was a goody two shoes paladin that fell head over heels for Bane. He was also a ruler of Westgate for a while!
Anyone with any notes or info on Xvim?
Thanks, much appreciated!
Phantom_Lord |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 17 Feb 2023 : 17:28:19
Learned Scribe Misereor, et alia,
I am a part of the Patreon for Ed Greenwood, and I've been running some of these topics by Ed in the #vip-castle, and I think you'll enjoy his response a great deal! From Ed himself! :)
quote:
Regarding Cpthero2's insurance policy hypothesis: If Cpthero2 is correct, could the change in manifestation to become more like Xvim maybe be a tactic of Bane's to divest himself of any remains of his mortality?
Here is the quote from Ed:
quote:
Ed Greenwood — 02/15/2023 9:37 PM
Oh, yes, you are indeed on the right track. Xvim was indeed Bane's insurance policy. (I've said that several times in several places before, down the years.) Bane imbued a son he begat on a mortal with some of his divine essence purely to give himself a means of coming back if he was destroyed. He cared nothing for Xvim's fate except as a tool for his own return. And yes, with several lurking vestiges of Xvim in existence, it gives Bane this back door to arising again if destroyed again several times over.
That is awesome, isn't? :) Apparently he had already put this information out in places, but I didn't run across it. I don't have any social media accounts, so I didn't see it, but there it is! :)
Best regards,
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 May 2022 : 21:47:16
I recently had a personal "eureka" moment about Xvim. I really don't know why I didn't think of it before. One of the most detailed encounters we ever see with Bane, is in fact a remnant of Bane's power possessing a mortal who was once Storm's lover. The god-ling was basically a demigod as far as power-level goes
What if Xvim was just another example of this occurring? If this mortal was possessed by some of Bane's power just before the Time of Trouble, it would make pretty much everything about Xvim and Bane make sense. He is his own entity working for his own power, and filling in the vacuum left by Bane's death. He is also completely subordinate to his predecessor, and ultimately is consumed in his return.
It totally fits with the way Bane made his followers powers in their own right by infusing power into them, very much as Mystra did. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 02:30:17
Very true.
There's also some very interesting possibilities about what might have happened with Bane and Xvim based on the fact that gods/planes are shaped by the belief of their worshipers. At least if you like getting some Planescape in your Realms and Realms in your Planescape.
It's possible, for example, that Xvim could have started to impersonate his father as Bane reborn in order to win over any lingering holdouts or mortals that were unimpressed by the Godson versus his father. He soaked up that worship and grew in power more and more. But, gods being powered by belief (according to Ao's decree), it eventually resulted in Bane's resurrection for real or Xvim became so synonymous with Bane that it became an unimportant distiction. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2022 : 22:59:59
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Sadly, Ed has confirmed that Xvim isn't Bane.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1179837235690127369
I think there's still some wiggle room, there. Ed has also said, repeatedly, that mortals can't really know what's going on with the gods because that info comes from the gods. The Tweet says it's a question of whether or not Xvim was destroyed by Bane -- but if the whole thing was Xvim faking it, and he told everyone he was Bane, then who is going to know otherwise?
Besides, saying that Bane destroyed Xvim still leaves the basic question that first led me down this path: if Bane 2.0 is Bane 1.0, then why are the two different? Bane reborn changed his colors and symbol and adopted a lot of stuff from Xvim -- which is an odd thing to do if Xvim was destroyed for his "betrayals and insolence". |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 16 Apr 2022 : 19:24:54
I've always had a softspot for the Baneson because I think he has an absolutely FASCINATING story that is something that should have been better followed up on:
1. He's the son of a demon and Bane but when we first meet him, he's serving as his father's envoy to the people summoning him in HALLS OF THE HIGH KING.
2. Somehow he gets imprisoned under Zhentil Keep and is stuck there as his father is killed (which he's happy about) and someone somehow EVEN WORSE has taken over (Cyric).
3. Fzoul is utterly DONE with Cyric's incompetence, stupidity, and insanity. So, Xvim offers to be his god instead.
4. Xvim hits the JACKPOT because Fzoul is the single most competent priest of evil in the Realms.
5. While it sounds small, Xvim actually skyrockets to being a Lesser Power when he was barely a powerful demon before.
6. The Banefog wipes out all of the Baneliches and remaining Bane followers who won't convert to him.
7. Fzoul sets himself up as the Chosen of Xvim and lesser god of not, it's an actually decent working relationship.
8. Bane explodes from Xvim which turns Xvim's triumph to ashes and also makes all the fanatical Bane followers look stupid -- the ones who were willing to convert were the ones who survived.
It's a massively fascinating story of the rise and fall of a god.
Assuming you're not like Wooly and believe Xvim just renamed himself Bane for branding reasons and he's actually Bane (II). But I could easily buy Xvim going from a Lesser Power to Greater Power just on the basis of Fzoul's effective missionary work.
Sadly, Ed has confirmed that Xvim isn't Bane.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1179837235690127369 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Nov 2021 : 20:26:40
I've decided this is an act to maintain the appearance of being his dad. |
| DeBasilisk |
Posted - 22 Nov 2021 : 19:26:51
Ed has issued some comments on Twitter regarding Xvims current status which seem to disprove a lot of the theories here on the forum but on the bright side do confirm that he is “out there.”
“11/15/21
@Artie_Pavlov
A quick question @TheEdVerse if “all gods are back” what does it mean for Xvim? He did get ripped apart by his father being reborn. Is he still a dead power as of the 15th century dr?
@TheEdVerse
Most folk in the Realms think he’s still dead and gone, but his clergy and most devout lay followers, and the Chosen of Mystra, know differently; they perceive him from time to time as a ghostly whisperer in their dreams/nightmares. He doesn’t seem to have any stronger physical presence. Yet.
Nor does he, as a ghostly presence, seem all that sane or firm of purpose. He mostly seems to crave worship, hungrily and desperately.” |
| rangerstranger |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 22:58:38
That entry from Monuments of the Ancients is very interesting as well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 21:05:55
quote:
Originally posted by rangerstranger
Wooly, I was looking for a full breakdown of your theory that Bane never returned and that Xvim is now pretending to be his father and this was the closest thing I could find in my searches. I have found an interesting note in an official source that I think would lend aid to your theory, if you have not already seen this bit of info. Again I haven't seen you make mention of it.
Anyway I am currently running a campaign where Scyllua Darkhope is prominent figure and I was looking for more info about her and her adoptive uncle, Teldorn Darkhope. So I went searching through all my books and I remembered that there are a couple of pages about Mintar in the Empires of the Shining Sea booklet. On Page 155, the first paragraph after "Notable Clergy and Churches" it says "The Temple of the Dark Lord, the temple at which Teldorn Darkhope received the visions that launched him on his schemes of conquest. Unknown to Darkhope, it was not Bane who was whispering tales of conquest and reward into his ears--it was actually Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson of Bane. Darkhope remains unaware of the deception to this day, but he suspects Bane may not be of the pawer he once was."
This definitely sets the precedent that Xvim is not above pretending to be his father in effort to further his own cause. Xvim may not have intended for Teldorn to believe he was Bane when whispering into his ear but he seems to have just ran with it after seeing how much fervor he created with in Teldorn and how effectively he was in conquering Mintar. Also, I find it interesting that Teldorn started his conquest of Mintar on Midwinter night, 1362, and Bane supposedly returned on Midwinter night, 1372.
That's an interesting bit. I'll have to add that to my list, along with another reference someone recently pointed out in the "Monument of the Ancients" adventure. |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 10 Jan 2021 : 14:24:09
Bane always had the ability to reincarnate.
Remember Dragon 57 with Ed's Down to Earth Divinity article. It mentions of Bane:
BANE The “big baddie,” Lord Bane is never seen, although there are tales of a freezing black-taloned hand and eyes
of blazing fire, and can be considered as roughly equivalent to Druaga (DDG, p.23). He does not, however, rule the archdevils (see Note #4).
Going to DDG, we see this of Druaga:
"Druaga only fights in person when his soul object (always put in a living being) is threatened. The soul object is the total essence of his being. If Druaga's bodily form is destroyed, the soul object will begin regenerating a whole new being with all the memories of the old devil. The human that has Druaga's soul implanted in him or her has no knowledge of this, and will die at the same time the devil body's dies, so that when the human's body is buried, there will be a safe place for the new devil to grow."
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Dec 2020 : 02:52:12
quote:
Originally posted by Bootravsky
Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).
quote:
What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).
I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.
I don't see a lot of phonetic similarity between Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim, nor much similarity in their stories, nor anything to link Ambuchar to Jergal as his son. |
| Bootravsky |
Posted - 29 Dec 2020 : 02:48:43
Oh, that’s easy: nothing but slight phonetic similarities between Iyachtu Xvim and Ambuchar Devayam. I just like the idea of something that ties the east and west realms tighter. They’ve always felt so separate, since most Realms products ignore Semphar and Murghom. Wasn’t Bane from the East as a living being? I think Myrkul was from Murghom, and Baal was Netherese (4e...).
quote:
What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).
I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Dec 2020 : 22:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by Bootravsky
In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim
Timeline is messy, but who cares?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.
We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.
We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.
So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.
What makes you link Tan Chin of Kara-Tur (Ambuchar Devayam) and Jergal? For linking Gilgeam and Bane, there's several links in lore that hint that perhaps Gilgeam was taken over by Bane at some point (for instance the "Banespear" that was rumored to be able to slay Gilgeam, and the change in Gilgeam from a generally affable personality to a cold tyrant).
I had actually forgotten THIS idea (of Xvim being the one transferred to Abeir), but I admit I still like it that possibly Gilgeam is Xvim from when Xvim was masquerading as Bane. This whole storyline where "Bane is back as some lesser entity" just screams to me that something funky is going on with him. He's a full on high up power in some form, but I think there's separate "aspects" of him floating about..... maybe as different people (Xvim, Bane, etc...).... or maybe he was split in a way similar to Manshoon. There's some bigger story at play. |
| Bootravsky |
Posted - 28 Dec 2020 : 15:36:39
In a similar way, I had the theory that Ambuchar Devayam and Iyachtu Xvim were different iterations of the Baneson, just from different lands and times - their names seem similar enough also. Maybe, they are all immortal beings that feed into the story cycle of the Strife Father being consumed by his child, a Faerunian version of Chronos/Zeus, or Arthur/Mordred. AND maybe Gilgeam is yet another iteration.
Jergal’s first child (DR -1377) = Ambuchar Devayam
Jergal splits his portfolio (-350s - -88)
The early first millennia = Gilgeam
DR 759 -1368 = Iyachtu Xvim
Timeline is messy, but who cares?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, I'm announcing from the outset... going out on a limb here with some of the ideas we've been throwing around the last year or two.
We've been wondering about three tyrannical entities... Bane, Xvim, and Gilgeam.... since the sundering and the last 2 brimstone angels novels. Gilgeam appears to be returned according to the novel, but he calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". He's also very weak and seemingly at least somewhat dependent on an item for his power. Still he professes to be Gilgeam, and people believe him.
We had been discussing the idea that where Mourktar WAS is all water during 4th edition, and that that area may have transferred to Abeir (the only indication otherwise is a RLB's novel which has them approaching a city CALLED Mourktar... which may be a "new" city established in the last century by survivors of vanished Mourktar within the remaining bounds of Threskel... I say new, because it may be 80 years old). In Mourktar was "the largest temple of Bane", but one which favored the colors of Green and Black, which were Xvim's traditional colors.
So, what if prior to the spellplague, Xvim HAD been trying to take over his father's shoes, then the spellplague happened. Perhaps it was original Bane "left behind"/"returned" to Toril, much as how Amaunator and other gods "returned"... and Xvim went to Abeir. Xvim then begins posing as Gilgeam to a displaced Untheric population. It should also be noted, Xvim is half-demonic, and the army that "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" is leading is supported by demons. Leading into this hypothesis is the idea that the novels indicate that Enlil sees something familiar in "Gilgeam", but also something different. If Xvim were to inhabit Gilgeam's former god flesh that might create this strange mix.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 06:39:02
Learned Scribe Returnip,
I must say, I have a real love for a little more mystery in there as well. Having the gods too defined makes it a little pointless to me!
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 04:10:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.
The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.
Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball.
I wonder where said ice-ball is now if it passed between the two planetary bodies and went careening off into realmspace... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 03:21:06
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.
The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir.
Apparently making a new planet is easier than stopping a big snowball. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 23:26:47
Also, Abeir until 4E had primordials (Dawn Titans) but no gods (Estelar). The afterlife of an Abeiran soul is unknown, but whatever it is, Kelemvor has no say in the matter.
The Abeir-Toril split happened about -31,000 DR. One of the primodrials (Asgorath IIRC) tried to hurl an ice moon at the original planet Abeir-Toril. Ao split the planet to prevent destruction. The gods (and primordials such as Ubtao who sided with them) got Toril and the primordials got Abeir. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 22:25:22
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.
-- George Krashos
Ok, so two copies of the same reality but just slightly out of sync? Like vision after a hard hit to the head or after a few drinks too many? Or perhaps you can only see one of them at a time?
Not even a copy, which is one of the reasons the idea just doesn't work for me. It's a separate world with its own distinct landmasses and everything. It's a fraternal twin, not an identical one. |
| Returnip |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 21:20:19
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.
-- George Krashos
Ok, so two copies of the same reality but just slightly out of sync? Like vision after a hard hit to the head or after a few drinks too many? Or perhaps you can only see one of them at a time? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 21:02:49
It's the world that Ao split off of what was originally Abeir-Toril. Now it's a wholly separate world with few direct connections to Toril - like it is in a different dimension. Every once in a while, there is a cosmic conjunction and the two interface. Such as the time of the Spelllplague. But that's 4E lore so details are sketchy.
-- George Krashos |
| Returnip |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 20:52:49
I've tried to understand the difference between Abeir and Toril but none of the links I've googled up has provided me with any satisfying explanation. Would you care to enlighten me or point me to a link that explains it? |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 19:40:24
Now imagine Xvim not only posing as Bane, but splitting off a portion of his essence to go to Abeir per Sleyvas' ruminations. So Xvim is Bane on Toril and Gilgeam on Abeir. Quite a way to double-dip. |
| Returnip |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 18:54:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's never been conclusively stated anywhere..
No, I get that. I just thought it was obvious. I tend to think of divine power not as people but as an energy in these cases. The domains move around between the gods of the Forgotten Realms all the time. Xvim calls himself Bane. Tiamat calls herself Entropy. These beings will do anything for a little more power.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 17:50:00
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Xvim is Bane 2.0.
I thought that was pretty obvious. Didn't know it was contested.  A vision is just a vision, and Xvim could have planted it as it was percieved on purpose, sending a message. I never assumed that vision described was literally what had happened.
It's never been conclusively stated anywhere, and even if it was the intent, I think it's been forgotten or disregarded by the current design team... Which is sad, because -- in my opinion, of course -- it's one of the many opportunities to make things more interesting that was utterly kicked to the curb by later designers. |
| Returnip |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 13:58:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Xvim is Bane 2.0.
I thought that was pretty obvious. Didn't know it was contested. A vision is just a vision, and Xvim could have planted it as it was percieved on purpose, sending a message. I never assumed that vision described was literally what had happened. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 13:54:56
Learned Scribe Misereor,
Wow. I commiserate.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?
I'm afraid not. Between a flooded basement and a divorce, I usually have to go by recollection when quoting stuff. Lost damn near a full collection of FR stuff from 1st and 2nd ed. >:p
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 13:46:32
Learned Scribe Misereor,
haha...fair enough!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.
If an Unholy Ghost shows up at some point, I'm calling shenanigans.
|
| Misereor |
Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 08:11:31
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
That is a fantastic acknowledgement of something really awesome! I never even had that in my mind. Is there any way you could dig more of that up and come back with a more robust analysis of that?
I'm afraid not. Between a flooded basement and a divorce, I usually have to go by recollection when quoting stuff. Lost damn near a full collection of FR stuff from 1st and 2nd ed. >:p
|
| Misereor |
Posted - 08 Oct 2018 : 08:01:14
quote:
Originally posted by redking
It might be interesting to throw that in as a new Banite doctrine. A duality, father and son as one being.
If an Unholy Ghost shows up at some point, I'm calling shenanigans.
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