| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 19:07:28
I've got a player that wants to create a dwarf character, originating in the Earthfast Mountains north of Impiltur. I started to do some research on that community, but found some potentially conflicting information.
FR9 Bloodstone Lands does not mention the community at all, although it details many other dwarven settlements in the area.
FR11 Dwarves Deep gives some details about the community, saying that it has been at war against orcs for years, and that the realm is expected to fall to orcish incursions sooner or later. Population is stated to be about 10,000 dwarves.
However, the Horde boxed set also mentions the Earthfast dwarves, and states that they contributed a force of 2000 soldiers to assist Azoun IV in engaging and defeating the Tuigan horde in Thesk.
I'm confused. How could a dwarven realm teetering on the edge of defeat afford to lend 20% of its population to another army? Owing to the conspicuousness of such a large troop movement, would not the orcs take maximum advantage and pound the dwarves into a pulp?
Can anyone suggest a solution to this dilemma? |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 18:36:21
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'm afb right now and can't check, but the general hoplessness of the tone in the Earthfast section says to me that "gone" is more permanent than simply relocated. We also know that all of Torg's family has been killed. They might have all been fighters and killed on the front lines, but then again they might not, either.
The family members of the Ironlord are very likely to have been combatants.
As for the women and children 'not living there any more', I'd think that if they had all been killed, the text would mention that. I took it to mean that those who were not combatants had long ago (as in centuries ago) moved away to other, less belaguered, dwarf holds.
Which in turn would lead to even fewer new warriors being born in the Earthfasts.
And we could even postulate that many of the warriors of Clan Hammerhand were born to dwarves of the Earthfasts who had moved away from their ancestral lands to more peaceful dwarfholds. Their sons (and some daughters) might not have been as ready to accept the loss of Earthfast City as they were. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 15:10:24
I'm afb right now and can't check, but the general hoplessness of the tone in the Earthfast section says to me that "gone" is more permanent than simply relocated. We also know that all of Torg's family has been killed. They might have all been fighters and killed on the front lines, but then again they might not, either. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 08:49:43
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Icelander, I think your point about attritional warfare works for many dwarven holds and cities, but not Earthfast. In FR11 we learn that all of the clan's women and children have been killed by raiding orcs, including Torg's wife and children. That doesn't happen to a city that's besieged and slowly losing. That only happens to a city that has had its walls breeched in dozens of places, its habitations overrun, and its non-combatants slaughtered while the soldiers were scattered and unable to regroup. The fact that the city is still there at all after such a disaster is, I think, a testament to the dwarven fighting prowess.
I seem to remember FR11 only saying that few women or children remain, not that all (or any of them for that matter) has been killed. Am I missing a reference? If not it is quite possible that the non-combatants have been sent away to a safe hold of some sort or even to the world above isn't it? |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 04:31:17
Icelander, I think your point about attritional warfare works for many dwarven holds and cities, but not Earthfast. In FR11 we learn that all of the clan's women and children have been killed by raiding orcs, including Torg's wife and children. That doesn't happen to a city that's besieged and slowly losing. That only happens to a city that has had its walls breeched in dozens of places, its habitations overrun, and its non-combatants slaughtered while the soldiers were scattered and unable to regroup. The fact that the city is still there at all after such a disaster is, I think, a testament to the dwarven fighting prowess.
What I think it more likely, especially what with the references to large portions of the city lost, is that the orcs have overrun at least half of Earthfast already. The breakthrough probably happened quickly, otherwise more of the non-combatants would have been able to pull back in time. Instead, the orc hordes poured in and cut off escape, and slaughtered many/most of the dwarves who were still in the city.
I think it's possible that the scattered dwarven armies were able to reform in time to build and hold a secondary defensive line, but I think it's more likely there's some sort of internal defensive terrain that worked to their advantage. Something like the Bridge of Kazad-Dum, that completely cuts off access to the western reaches of the dwarven holdings and that the dwarves could hold against a horde with few numbers. We already know there's a similar span at Mithril Hall, and it makes sense that the dwarves would actively seek out and/or build such things for just such a purpose. If the bridge was most of the way west, built as a defense against attacks from that direction, then most of the living quarters would be to its east and therefore unprotected.
In this scenario, the dwarves lose control of the eastern walls and then pretty much everyone in the eastern half/two-thirds of the city is slain. It's only at the bridge, and a couple of other fortified places like Clangeddin's temple, that the dwarves are able to reform a defense. At which point things stalemate; the dwarves can't easily be dislodged, but they can't really go on the offensive either.
Which also frees up the two thousand who went to help Azoun. If your holdings have shrunk to just a few supremely-fortified spots, you don't need huge numbers to hold, even against a horde. At that point, more troops above a certain level wouldn't even be able to rotate in to fight in a timely fashion; they'd just be sitting on their hands (or, more likely, running the forges).
Finally, Torg may be arrogant, but he's not stupid. He's also quite likely also desperate. The terms of his alliance with Cormyr are never actually spelled out, but I'd imagine that Azoun promised some pretty hefty aid to Torg in return for his help. Aid like a dozen War Wizards, for instance. And if Torg saves the cities of the Vast, he can call in help from them as well. Not troops, necessarily, but certainly food and other supplies. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 01 Sep 2010 : 03:15:02
Let us begin by acknowleding that references to the 'Earthfast Mountains' in previous lore are complicated by the fact that as of 3.x, there are actually two ranges in the area, the 'Earthspur Mountains' and the 'Earthfast Mountains'.
The ones stretching from west to east in the area between Ravens Bluff and Procampur would seem to be the Earthfast Mountains and the ones that go from south to north heading upwards to the Cold Lands seem to be the Earthspurs.
On that note, it would seem logical that dwarves that are reckoned as loyal neighbors of Impiltur would be in the Earthspurs and not the Earthfasts.
Quite simply, dwarves would call all the mountains the Earthfasts while humans have two different names for the connected ranges.
If any scribe has a more precise placement for the settlement than that in Dwarves Deep, please inform us.
With geography out of the way, I don't see much that is inconsistent with the possibility that the dwarves of Earthfast City are both gradually succumbing to orcish raids and able to send 20% of their strength out to lend aid to their neighbours.
To begin with, let us make room for the possibility that the dwarven numbers have dwindled not just through massive battles, but through innumerable small skirmishes. While no one orcish tribe can muster enough tuskers to invade Earthfast City while even a thousand dwarves defend it, the orcs do attack their miners, their farmers and anyone else who leaves the (one presumes) immense fortifications of the city. And the Teeth of the Vastar manage to kill a few dwarves in every skirmish and no matter how heavy their losses, orcs replenish their numbers with prodigious speed.
Simply put, the dwarves of Earthfast City can easily win the next battle. Or the next hundred battles. But through their innumerable victories, they can see the inevitability of defeat, as every new generation of dwarven warriors sees fewer axes held high.
Furthermore, let's keep in mind orcish population 'cycles'. When an orcish population grows too large, it gathers in an immense horde that raids, kills and dies. This relieves the pressure on orcish food supplies for a few short years, at least until a new generation of snouters grows to adulthood.
Last and not least, let's keep in mind that in 1358 DR, the Year of Shadows, orcs across Faerun took advantage of the unreliability of the ubitiquous magic of their human and demihuman foes and swarved as never before.
As none of the human settlements in the Vast or Impiltur were overrun, one presumes that the orcs died in their thousands and their tens of thousands. Probably when the magic came back while they were still massed in a horde that could conveniently be attacked by area magic.
And finally, keep in mind that the Crusade happened in 1360 DR. If the orcish numbers were at record lows (which fits with the relative paucity of raids until the Ravens Bluff war of 1370 DR, about a generation later), this can easily explain how the dwarves are able to contemplate many of their warriors to aid human allies. After all, without the humans living in the lands around them, the periodic orcish hordes would focus exclusively on Earthfast City, which would certainly lead to it fading into glorious memory even earlier. |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 00:26:29
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This topic is a very convoluted one. Far more than you think. The best examination of it was undertaken by the "Northern Journey" adventure team (if you don't know what northern Journey is do a google search - excellent 'unofficial' FR module series). Their look at the Earthfast dwarves was done to illustrate the concept of what is 'canon' and how sometimes 'canon' has to go by the way side ...
Without their permission (but I doubt Mark Oliva would begrudge me providing the info here) I present you with the Northern Journey group's look at the Earthfast dwarves.
-- George Krashos
I never even thought to check Northern Journey! I'm a big fan of Mark & Co.'s work, and even made a (very small) editorial contribution on the next release of NJ7. Reading over NJ5 I can see the reference you've made George, and the problem is indeed larger than I realized.
As much as I try to remain within canon in my campaign, I don't see any way to merge the inconsistencies. Since I like the feel of a settlement on the edge of oblivion, I believe I'll stick with FR11's description, but reduce the number of troops that the dwarves committed to the Tuigan resistance to a more reasonable number, perhaps 200-400. This would still allow the clan to fulfill their alliance with Cormyr, and still retain the vast bulk of their forces at home to defend against the orcs. However, if anyone can see a better way, I'd love to hear it.
Thanks again for the help! |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 00:17:14
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
The history of the Earthfast dwarves has been detailed in the "City of Raven's Bluff" accessory written by Ed Greenwood. It is available for free download in the FR/D&D download section.
Other events written by RPGA adventure authors have added to what was first provided and compiled by Mr. Greenwood: back when I was a member of the Living City campaign, I produced a presentation summarizing the dwarven events through the Earthfast. Click here if you want to see it for yourself.
Hope that this helps!
Thanks for the great information, PDK, the powerpoint presentation is particularly neat . I'll download the Raven's Bluff accessory from WotC tonight and see what it has to say. I have a print version of LC2 "Inside Raven's Bluff"; do you know off-hand if it has any info about the Earthfast dwarves?
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 13:39:57
This topic is a very convoluted one. Far more than you think. The best examination of it was undertaken by the "Northern Journey" adventure team (if you don't know what northern Journey is do a google search - excellent 'unofficial' FR module series). Their look at the Earthfast dwarves was done to illustrate the concept of what is 'canon' and how sometimes 'canon' has to go by the way side ...
Without their permission (but I doubt Mark Oliva would begrudge me providing the info here) I present you with the Northern Journey group's look at the Earthfast dwarves.
To keep in the spirit of this module, let us look simply at the Earthfast Dwarves in the Earthfast Mountains of Impiltur:
In FR9 The Bloodstone Lands by R.A. Salvatore, published in 1989, the dwarves apparently did not yet exist. There are many words on the Earthfast Mountains but no mention at all of dwarves there.
In FR11 Dwarves Deep by Ed Greenwood, published one Earth year later in 1990, the Earthfast kingdom is finally discovered. Ed tells us it's been in the Earthfasts for a long time, once having had a population in Earthfast City of 100,000, which now has dwindled down to about 10,000. These dwarves have names like Torg mac Cei, their leader, who is called the Ironlord, and they are being driven to the wall by orcs in the Earthfasts and no doubt soon will fall and fade from our memories.
In FR12 Horde Campaign by Curtis M. Scott, published another Earth year later in 1991, we find out that the clan wasn't so hard pressed after all. In fact, it was able to send 2,000 of its finest into battle with King Azoun IV of Cormyr, against the Tuigan Horde. The companion TSR novel from the same year, Crusade by James Lowder, also makes quite clear that none less than Ironlord Torg mac Cei led the dwarves who fought with Azoun, and Torg died there. However. in the book, Cormyr's Princess Alusair also describes Earthfast City as "a lonely, embattled place, devoid of hope."
Still another Earth year later, in 1992, author Tim Beach in FR15 Gold and Glory straightens things out again. It turns out that the Earthfast dwarves have a Clan Hammerhand, a 200-dwarf mercenary company from Ravens Bluff – originally from the Earthfasts – that decided to move back to the Earthfasts after the defeat of the Tuigan. Doing this, Mr. Beach informs us, "would involve removing a number of the goblinoids there."
That problem isn't much of a problem for the dwarves, however, because they send fighters off to do mercenary work "to support the clan and gain battle experience." Apparently the goblinoid removal offers too little opportunity to gain battle experience, and the unfortunate dwarves must "maintain offices in Ravens Bluff, Tantras and Telflamm" to find such experiences. Sad dwarves! Their orc neighbors are so peaceful that the dwarves have to work in offices in the city just to keep in training! Mr. Beach also spares us another problem. We don't need to learn difficult names like Torg mac Cei after all. The clan leader, according to FR15, has a simple name, Garren Hammerhand.
TSR apparently spent the next six years carefully debating how to clear this matter up, and in 1998, in Powers and Pantheons, Eric L. Boyd shed some new light upon things. Because P&P is above all about gods, we learn not only that Earthfast City has been in the mountains a long time, but also that it has a cathedral to Clangeddin Silverbeard. Unfortunately, it is "the subject of frequent assault by orcish armies intent on overrunning the dwarven kingdom."
Eric brings those difficult names back again. Garren Hammerhand goes unmentioned. And the new Ironlord is named Cindarm mac Faern, the greatnephew of Torg. Cindarm leads the "badly outnumbered Clangeddites against wave after wave of orcish assault." Fortunately, Eric did rescue the poor dwarves from having to go to the office everyday. The mercenaries of the clan are back in the Earthfasts again, adding a few additional rays of hope to the battle against the orcs.
It's not our intention here to criticize or ridicule the individual TSR writers, particularly not Ed Greenwood or Eric Boyd, who have been of immense help to us of the Northern Journey crew. We simply wish to point out how inconsistent the so-called canon is. We ended up having more canons than most armored units have cannons.
-- George Krashos
|
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 20:49:21
The history of the Earthfast dwarves has been detailed in the "City of Raven's Bluff" accessory written by Ed Greenwood. It is available for free download in the FR/D&D download section.
Other events written by RPGA adventure authors have added to what was first provided and compiled by Mr. Greenwood: back when I was a member of the Living City campaign, I produced a presentation summarizing the dwarven events through the Earthfast. Click here if you want to see it for yourself.
Hope that this helps! |
|
|
