| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 23:44:59
Does anyone else dislike the idea of a god ruling arcane magic? I always saw wizards and their ilk to earn their power outside of a divine force, so why should a deity control it? I'm not talking specifically about Faerunian magic, but the general idea (also present in DL and others) that all magic (excepting psionics) flows in some way from the gods. Clerics give gods enough control over magic, but arcane casters shouldn't fall under the mastery of a god. Any thoughts? |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 20:59:56
Senior Scribe Sourcemaster2,
I think it is an interesting idea for the campaign; however, if I were to choose myself, I would ditch all deities of magic, i.e. Mystra, Velsharoon, Azuth. The idea of controlling the one source of magic is a bit much. The Weave is great though. If the Weave were just a force (perhaps, like the Force), then you could just learn to use it in one of two ways, a) figure it out the mathy way as with arcane users, or b) get assistance from a deity who maybe makes it easier to get there, but you have to obey their edicts, or ethos (ethics).
The only thing that comes to mind on why there is a deity to control magic, is because gods want to stay in power, and if the wizards get too powerful, perhaps they would be able to overthrow even the gods?
I agree that wizards should just be exempt from the deity of magic though. Good point.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
Does anyone else dislike the idea of a god ruling arcane magic? I always saw wizards and their ilk to earn their power outside of a divine force, so why should a deity control it? I'm not talking specifically about Faerunian magic, but the general idea (also present in DL and others) that all magic (excepting psionics) flows in some way from the gods. Clerics give gods enough control over magic, but arcane casters shouldn't fall under the mastery of a god. Any thoughts?
|
| Forge |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 14:14:36
quote:
Higher level spells could still function if PCs travel to other planes, or if they are in another time, just not in Toril after Mystra has limited them. In a way you can argue that if someone does come up with 10th+ level spells it actually gives you something to have Mystra deny (heh heh).
Quite so, I would also be surprised if other factions didn't either a) Coerce/cheat/steal/kill to get that kind of spell power if it showed up. OR
b) Do their level best to eradicate such knowledge out of fear that it would propagate the "Netheril Syndrome". |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 07:08:25
Epic level magic isn't any level becuase it is a direct manipulation of the use of magic on a much deeper level. Its very powerful but not as simple as using a "spell slot" to cast a spell.
Higher level spells could still function if PCs travel to other planes, or if they are in another time, just not in Toril after Mystra has limited them. In a way you can argue that if someone does come up with 10th+ level spells it actually gives you something to have Mystra deny (heh heh).
At any rate, Forgotten Realms is officially Dungeons and Dragons, not d20, so while you can add anything that you wish to your home campaign, the Forgotten Realms as produced in sourcebooks, etc, will be standard Dungeons and Dragons (i.e. no 10th+ level spells). |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 05:59:12
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I think a simple explaination of why not stop at 11 is because D&D stops at 9th. FR put a reason to why it stops at 9th, if Greyhawk or Dragonlance have reasons I'm not aware of them, but in FR there's a reason. :)
But we are now in the world of D20 roleplaying. Other companies than Wizards have produced 3rd edition level 10+ spells. Under the Open Gaming License they may be introduced into D&D games. The 9th level spell cap bars them from Faerūn unless they are Epic spells. Contending that Epic spells are "really" 9th level or lower is a bit absurd, but at least it is consistent with Realms thaumocosmology |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 05:21:58
I think a simple explaination of why not stop at 11 is because D&D stops at 9th. FR put a reason to why it stops at 9th, if Greyhawk or Dragonlance have reasons I'm not aware of them, but in FR there's a reason. :) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 02:41:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It also limits what people can do, and teaches them to work within the established framework instead of trying to come up ever-more powerful spells.
Indeed. We need only look to two other worlds where the unrestrained use of magic has led to horrendous levels of destruction -- namely Krynn and Athas.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 17:56:13
It also limits what people can do, and teaches them to work within the established framework instead of trying to come up ever-more powerful spells. |
| Forge |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 14:12:29
quote:
Why 10+? Why not 11+ or 12+? After all it was a 12 level spell that did Mystryl in so why should spells weaker than that be banned?
In part because at the outset of the realms only 9th level spells existed. In FR terms, it may be that spells more powerful than 9th level were re-evaluated in light of the crisis and limitations placed where there were none before.
Remember, just because there were no limits before, and because it was a 12th lvl spell (ostensibly) that caused the damage, does NOT follow that the 10+ spells were any less culpible for placing the world in danger. Think on this; every 10th level spell had the capacity to exceed the most powerful spells below them. *cough* Wish *cough*. Also, the more powerful the spell the more strain and drain placed upon the Weave, which was stressed by the Nether-folk and we all saw what that caused.
Again, that whole thing just justifies the existence of a divine power in oversight of the Weave. |
| khorne |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 13:28:14
Why 10+? Why not 11+ or 12+? After all it was a 12 level spell that did Mystryl in so why should spells weaker than that be banned? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 02:57:22
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Especially since during the days of the 10th+ spells a mortal spellcaster killed the previous Goddess of Magic.
Yes, Karse the Mad, true that he tried to kill Mystryl but Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave not Karse who killed her.
She wouldn't have had to have done that had he not cast his Ultimate Mistake spell. So he's still responsible for her death. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 01:04:31
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Especially since during the days of the 10th+ spells a mortal spellcaster killed the previous Goddess of Magic.
Yes, Karse the Mad, true that he tried to kill Mystryl but Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave not Karse who killed her. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 23:14:26
Especially since during the days of the 10th+ spells a mortal spellcaster killed the previous Goddess of Magic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 17:30:11
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Mystra lecturing the Simbul about killing Red Wizards? Hmm, how is it that I never heard of it and i thought it is a duty of a Chosen of Mystra to fight evil, but this seems to contradict my belief.
Mystra's Chosen are charged with helping the spread of magic, and working against those who prevent the spread of magic.
Opposing evil is a personal choice. Of course, it must be admitted that evil sorts are the ones that are the most likely to restrict knowledge, especially when it can be used against them.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Anyway, in my opinion, Mystra can be said to be allowing the use of magic freely, if only she restore the use of 10th level spells for all to use.
If she denies it to all, then it is fair -- she's not allowing some to use it and not others. I don't see how her ban against 10+ level spells could at all be considered unfair. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 16:36:40
quote:
Originally posted by ShadovarMystra lecturing the Simbul about killing Red Wizards? Hmm, how is it that I never heard of it and i thought it is a duty of a Chosen of Mystra to fight evil, but this seems to contradict my belief. Anyway, in my opinion, Mystra can be said to be allowing the use of magic freely, if only she restore the use of 10th level spells for all to use.
It's in Elminster's Daughter. :) |
| Forge |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 14:31:22
I don't so much have a problem with it. Seems to me that Karsus justified the existence of a Divine oversight of the Weave. Bear in mind, there are several checks involved with the process so that Mystra doesn't have total control, including a Lesser Power, Azuth, who has his own free will over the portion of the Weave he is granted control of. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 12:56:33
quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
Actually I am not a big fan of the current goddess of magic nor her predicessor Mystul. They seem far to willing to put there foot down as if magic needs to be limited. Which it was thanks to Karsus... I don't mind their being a god or goddess of magic in the realms, but they shouldn't really care about the application of it. Magic for Magic sake, magic for good, magic for evil, who cares; just so long as everybody gets to use it!
Anyhowzen I prefer the dragonlance model where the distribution of magiks is spread between three deitiess each supporting a certain alignment. Mystra's supression of the evil mage societies and certain types of magic is just getting annoying.
No offense, but you just touched on a sore point of mine. 
Mystra is no longer supressing the evil use of magic. The only place where you can find mention of her doing that is in one novel, and by the end of that novel, she was no longer doing it. She is now doing as she should -- freely granting magic to all, regardless of their intentions. She is doing her duty. If she was still imposing her own morals on the use of magic, she would have lost her godhood.
So any complaints about how Mystra is managing her portfolio are, quite simply, invalid.
Again, no offense was intended, but I am always irked when I see someone say that.
Mystra even went as far to scold The Simbul about killing Red Wizards.I like that!!!
Mystra lecturing the Simbul about killing Red Wizards? Hmm, how is it that I never heard of it and i thought it is a duty of a Chosen of Mystra to fight evil, but this seems to contradict my belief. Anyway, in my opinion, Mystra can be said to be allowing the use of magic freely, if only she restore the use of 10th level spells for all to use. |
| VEDSICA |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 03:49:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
Actually I am not a big fan of the current goddess of magic nor her predicessor Mystul. They seem far to willing to put there foot down as if magic needs to be limited. Which it was thanks to Karsus... I don't mind their being a god or goddess of magic in the realms, but they shouldn't really care about the application of it. Magic for Magic sake, magic for good, magic for evil, who cares; just so long as everybody gets to use it!
Anyhowzen I prefer the dragonlance model where the distribution of magiks is spread between three deitiess each supporting a certain alignment. Mystra's supression of the evil mage societies and certain types of magic is just getting annoying.
No offense, but you just touched on a sore point of mine.
Mystra is no longer supressing the evil use of magic. The only place where you can find mention of her doing that is in one novel, and by the end of that novel, she was no longer doing it. She is now doing as she should -- freely granting magic to all, regardless of their intentions. She is doing her duty. If she was still imposing her own morals on the use of magic, she would have lost her godhood.
So any complaints about how Mystra is managing her portfolio are, quite simply, invalid.
Again, no offense was intended, but I am always irked when I see someone say that.
Mystra even went as far to scold The Simbul about killing Red Wizards.I like that!!! |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 26 Jun 2005 : 22:22:50
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
I too enjoy the many Faerunian gods, but I see arcane magic as the power of mortals outside the influence of gods, the one domain where divine influence shouldn't extend. I like the idea of a god for almost everything, but mortals need something on their side. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Oh, the pains of acquiring Wisdom! (Especially through age.) I used to concur, but after reading lore here, I have come to the slow and painful realization that ... this is the way it is on Toril. Period. Mystryl was magic -- part of Selūne's own divinity, which is why she is an Intermediate power and Shar a greater. As I understand it, when Karsus took Mystryl's divinity, he took (capital "M") Magic itself, which is why Mystryl had to self-destruct -- her sacrifice was to preserve Magic itself, not to shield the gods from mortals with hubris. I suspect that when Midnight was elevated to divinity all she really did was restore a "human interface" to Magic, superimposing her personality on it, but losing some essential part of her mortal human self in the process. (Providing such an interface was Selūne's original goal, keeping some power, at least, out of the hands of Shar should the latter prevail over her.)
Since Selūne is one of the creator deities, it is possible that there is no magic available at all on Toril except for the Weave (and now the Shadow Weave, which Shar seems to have created with no loss of her own power by working in the "space between" the fragment of Selūne which became Mystryl and the Weave). Had Selūne not given of herself Toril might have no magic but clerical magic, and possibly not even that.
It appears that within other crystal spheres arcane magic has no "personality" -- it stands in sharp contradistinction to clerical magic, which is bestowed by spirits or Powers. However, atheists can (and often do) become spellcasters on such worlds. In Planescape, and now on Krynn, atheists may even cast clerical spells.
On Krynn arcane magic appears to derive from three deities who do not require worship (or that is the mortal understanding of the situation), and Krynn may be thought of as holding an intermediate position between the two extremes -- "god(s)" still control the magic, but they dish it out freely to those who hold their philosophical alignment -- Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic. It is a fair assumption that in other crystal spheres magic is divvied up along the ethical divides of Good, Neutral, and Evil, or just Good and Evil (we already know that in the worlds of the Eternal Champion the divide is between Law and Chaos). As the example of Krynn shows (and now Toril with the Shadow Weave), how magical power is distributed may change over time, evolving with the world.
I suspect that there is a continuum of magical distribution in crystal spheres just as there is a continuum of star ages and colors. At middle age spheres may lose the Personification of magic (eliminating the middle deity, as it were), and at advanced age the magic itself seems to fade away, to be replaced by technology and/or psionics. It became a commonplace in neo-Pagan writing of the late 20th century to view the history of Earth as one in which the Powers passed away (on way or another) as monotheism arose, and that monotheism is now passing away in favor of technology and/or unfettered access to primal magical powers (which include what D&D regards as psionics). Toril, however, is, in my opinion, at a stage in its evolution in which Magic is personified. Perhaps all spheres must pass through such a stage, or perhaps there are typical divergent paths for worlds, in which personified Magic is one evolutionary line.
Toril is what Toril is, and Toril's magic is what it is. Changing the way magic is distributed changes the essential nature of the world, and at that point the campaign ceases to be a "Forgotten Realms" campaign.
Somewhat off-topic:
Oh my goddess! I am writing about the cladistics of Magic! Oy.... To steer through the transfinite mathematics of Divinity, it seems apparent that Selūne's division of herself into Mystryl (a greater power) and Selūne (an intermediate power) allows us to formulate the equation:
Intermediate Power + Greater Power = Greater Power
because
Greater Power ÷ Greater Power = Greater Power + Intermediate Power
(Selūne ÷ Mystryl = Selūne + Mystryl).
Thus, those who aspire to Overpower status by absorbing other Powers (e.g. Cyric's goal) or acquiring some divine mojo (e.g. Bane & Bhaal's goals with the Tablets of Fate) are probably deluding themselves, which may be part of their own divine natures, however. It may be possible for a Power to acquire Overpower status, but I suspect that these two means are not the way to go. It is possible that "interloper deities" may be (consciously or unconsciously) heading for Overpower status by acquiring influence in multiple crystal spheres, but this may not be the necessary outcome of the expansion of their divine reach. If the gods themselves have trouble figuring out Overpowers, there is an almost infinitely small likelihood that a mere mortal can understand them. (Georg Cantor, who formulated the transfinite mathematics which I have borrowed above, went mad trying to figure out the arithmetic of aleph two, which we gamers may say would correspond to an Overpower of numerals, or an Overnumeral, if aleph one, an infinity raised to an infinite power, corresponds with Powers, as it corresponds to a (capital "N") Numeral.)
These are the speculations of my friend Pyotr van App. Alas, I cannot prove a word of this....
|
| Jerard Doonsay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 00:52:00
The way I view that gods is that they are the personification of the aspects they control. While Mystra controls arcana, she cannot grant it's sue to her clerics. The Magic and Spell domains merely mimic arcane spells on a divine level. And mortals do have it on their side. Mystra exists for just that reason. |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 20:16:35
I too enjoy the many Faerunian gods, but I see arcane magic as the power of mortals outside the influence of gods, the one domain where divine influence shouldn't extend. I like the idea of a god for almost everything, but mortals need something on their side. Of course, that's just my opinion. |
| tauster |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 17:19:48
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
The logical progression of your argument would be to get rid of all gods. Why single out a god of magic as a problem?
i am on the same side as sourcemaster2 and wooly rupert, but for the sake of the argument: magic might be "singled out" because it has a divine counterpart: clerical magic.
so while clerical magic surely IS ruled by gods, i can understand when someone feels that arcane magic should not, and should be more like a "force of nature", free from any divine influence.
but then again, in faerun almost every important aspect of live (and several seemingly unimportant *g*) has "it“s own god", and i don“t really have a problem with that. in fact, i like it that way for faerun. 
furthermore: even if one assumes that magic should be more like a "force of nature", consider talos (storms), umberlee (see), eldath (water), akadi (air), kossuth (fire), and so on. while all these forces of nature are ruled by a god, why should the greatest faerunian force of nature be without a god(dess)? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 15:45:43
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
She doesn't take Manshoon out on a Friday night, but she's a big fan of his work.
Ditto for Larlock. And with the Red Wal-Marts popping up everywhere, she's obviously not holding the Thayans down. |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 15:25:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mystra is no longer supressing the evil use of magic. The only place where you can find mention of her doing that is in one novel, and by the end of that novel, she was no longer doing it. She is now doing as she should -- freely granting magic to all, regardless of their intentions. She is doing her duty. If she was still imposing her own morals on the use of magic, she would have lost her godhood.
She doesn't take Manshoon out on a Friday night, but she's a big fan of his work. |
| kahonen |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 12:52:47
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
It may just be me, but I've always thought that if there has to be a god of magic, he/she shouldn't have any influence over the magic of wizards, sorcerers, and bards. They earn their powers instead of invoking gods, and so should be outside divine control. Make a god of magic itself of of magical beings, but don't let any god strip a mage's power if it feels like it (I know Mystra doesn't do that often, but it's still not fair).
Couldn't the same argument be used to get rid of the need for a god of knowledge? Surely knowledge is earned so why should there be a god controlling it.
What about farmers? They learn when to plant crops, how to care for them and when to harvest them. Why then do you need a god of nature who can decide whether a crop grows or not?
Whay have a god of thieves? Aren't there skills learned the same as those of a mage?
The logical progression of your argument would be to get rid of all gods. Why single out a god of magic as a problem? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 06:52:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
Actually I am not a big fan of the current goddess of magic nor her predicessor Mystul. They seem far to willing to put there foot down as if magic needs to be limited. Which it was thanks to Karsus... I don't mind their being a god or goddess of magic in the realms, but they shouldn't really care about the application of it. Magic for Magic sake, magic for good, magic for evil, who cares; just so long as everybody gets to use it!
Anyhowzen I prefer the dragonlance model where the distribution of magiks is spread between three deitiess each supporting a certain alignment. Mystra's supression of the evil mage societies and certain types of magic is just getting annoying.
No offense, but you just touched on a sore point of mine.
Mystra is no longer supressing the evil use of magic. The only place where you can find mention of her doing that is in one novel, and by the end of that novel, she was no longer doing it. She is now doing as she should -- freely granting magic to all, regardless of their intentions. She is doing her duty. If she was still imposing her own morals on the use of magic, she would have lost her godhood.
So any complaints about how Mystra is managing her portfolio are, quite simply, invalid.
Again, no offense was intended, but I am always irked when I see someone say that. |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 04:31:38
It may just be me, but I've always thought that if there has to be a god of magic, he/she shouldn't have any influence over the magic of wizards, sorcerers, and bards. They earn their powers instead of invoking gods, and so should be outside divine control. Make a god of magic itself of of magical beings, but don't let any god strip a mage's power if it feels like it (I know Mystra doesn't do that often, but it's still not fair). |
| Ordin_Solandar |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:30:29
Actually I am not a big fan of the current goddess of magic nor her predicessor Mystul. They seem far to willing to put there foot down as if magic needs to be limited. Which it was thanks to Karsus... I don't mind their being a god or goddess of magic in the realms, but they shouldn't really care about the application of it. Magic for Magic sake, magic for good, magic for evil, who cares; just so long as everybody gets to use it!
Anyhowzen I prefer the dragonlance model where the distribution of magiks is spread between three deitiess each supporting a certain alignment. Mystra's supression of the evil mage societies and certain types of magic is just getting annoying. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 00:40:49
I've never had a problem with deities of magic... If we're going to have deities for naturally occuring phenomena, then why not the other stuff? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 23:55:23
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
Does anyone else dislike the idea of a god ruling arcane magic? I always saw wizards and their ilk to earn their power outside of a divine force, so why should a deity control it? I'm not talking specifically about Faerunian magic, but the general idea (also present in DL and others) that all magic (excepting psionics) flows in some way from the gods. Clerics give gods enough control over magic, but arcane casters shouldn't fall under the mastery of a god. Any thoughts?
Never bothered me really. But then maybe my neo-pagan beliefs don't help either. Almost every pagan faith has a deity and or deities that control magic...... So to me it made sense that it would be the same in D&D.... |
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