| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MuadDib |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 08:07:14
I've been reading a number of novels and source books recently, and I have a quick question regarding the Pantheon (I dont know if this would change so 2E, 3E or 3.5E so assume most recent information please)
In James Lowder's Prince of Lies, Gwydion is tricked into believing in Torm and when put to the test in the dead city, he fails to read the inscriptions on Torm's gauntlets. It wasn't a true faith, I'm following so far. Later on, he gets the chance to become a true disciple of Torm as it were, by remaining true to his duty and showing courage in the face of the Serpent and later against Cryic. He then manages to pass Torm's test and is forever numbered among his faithful.
I have now started reading Elaine Cunningham's Daughter of the Drow, and this is the first novel (sad I know) where I've heard mention of the the 'other' drow deity. I've always known only of Lloth.
This got me thinking about specific deities. The dwarves have Moradin (as an example), the elves have Corellon Larethian (i think) and the humans I guess have the normal Gods. In Price of Lies, there are a bunch of Frost Giants that worship an Elemental, and I don't know if they count, but elementals were summoned to the banishing of the Gods in 'Shadowdale' so I'm including them anyway.
So my point is this, if Gwydion could basically start believing in Torm, and prove himself worthy of a position as a faithful, is it possible for any being of any race to assume any deity they wanted? Lets say for example a young impressionable human lady falls in love with a powerful elf and she decides she wants to worship Corellon Larethian and chooses her deity as such, and spends the rest of her natural life doing whatever it is she is needs to do to prove herself faithful, will she be numbered among the Elven faithful or is it race specific? Would it be possible for an evil surface elf to worship a drow God, or a dwarf to worship Mystra? Are those things possible? And what happens to them when they die?
On the same thread, the Gods mentioned in Prince of Lies, the common ones as it were, it seems that the spirits of the dead, who seem to be mostly human if memory serves, wait in limbo and are collected by their Gods if they are faithful. Since there is no mention of the other race's Gods, do they experience the same thing at death? A purgatory of sorts where they wait to be collected by their chosen deities, or do they share the same realms as the 'whomever else' goes to Cyric/Kelemvor's realm?
And a final question, juts in case anyone knows. Can someone tell me jsut the name of the sourcebook/refernece book that details what all the deities were doing during the Time of Troubles. I 'know' I've read or seen it somewhere but I can't for the life of me find it.
Thanks  |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 16:48:28
Senior Scribe MuadDib,
I believe this is a situation where you find that ever changing planar lore creates havoc. That being said, I know Humans for sure go to the Fugue Plane, where senescal's go to retrieve the souls to a gods realm that they worshiped. Non-faithful go to the Wall of Kelemvor's domain. Elves go to Arvandor, and Dwarves go to Dwarfhome (it use to be known as Mount Celestia, but whatever). Not sure about other races.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
I've been reading a number of novels and source books recently, and I have a quick question regarding the Pantheon (I dont know if this would change so 2E, 3E or 3.5E so assume most recent information please)
In James Lowder's Prince of Lies, Gwydion is tricked into believing in Torm and when put to the test in the dead city, he fails to read the inscriptions on Torm's gauntlets. It wasn't a true faith, I'm following so far. Later on, he gets the chance to become a true disciple of Torm as it were, by remaining true to his duty and showing courage in the face of the Serpent and later against Cryic. He then manages to pass Torm's test and is forever numbered among his faithful.
I have now started reading Elaine Cunningham's Daughter of the Drow, and this is the first novel (sad I know) where I've heard mention of the the 'other' drow deity. I've always known only of Lloth.
This got me thinking about specific deities. The dwarves have Moradin (as an example), the elves have Corellon Larethian (i think) and the humans I guess have the normal Gods. In Price of Lies, there are a bunch of Frost Giants that worship an Elemental, and I don't know if they count, but elementals were summoned to the banishing of the Gods in 'Shadowdale' so I'm including them anyway.
So my point is this, if Gwydion could basically start believing in Torm, and prove himself worthy of a position as a faithful, is it possible for any being of any race to assume any deity they wanted? Lets say for example a young impressionable human lady falls in love with a powerful elf and she decides she wants to worship Corellon Larethian and chooses her deity as such, and spends the rest of her natural life doing whatever it is she is needs to do to prove herself faithful, will she be numbered among the Elven faithful or is it race specific? Would it be possible for an evil surface elf to worship a drow God, or a dwarf to worship Mystra? Are those things possible? And what happens to them when they die?
On the same thread, the Gods mentioned in Prince of Lies, the common ones as it were, it seems that the spirits of the dead, who seem to be mostly human if memory serves, wait in limbo and are collected by their Gods if they are faithful. Since there is no mention of the other race's Gods, do they experience the same thing at death? A purgatory of sorts where they wait to be collected by their chosen deities, or do they share the same realms as the 'whomever else' goes to Cyric/Kelemvor's realm?
And a final question, juts in case anyone knows. Can someone tell me jsut the name of the sourcebook/refernece book that details what all the deities were doing during the Time of Troubles. I 'know' I've read or seen it somewhere but I can't for the life of me find it.
Thanks
|
| Beowulf |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 16:05:34
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
*shrugs* they don't put what edition it is on the cover  3e, 3.5e not much difference anyways...
 To hear some when 3.5e was published, you would think the two as different as night and day.
Well, night and day is the difference between 3+ ed and any of the previous editions. There are some familiar terms, but once you get down to it it's a different system all together. It makes one wonder why they bothered to keep the name .... not. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 14:01:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
*shrugs* they don't put what edition it is on the cover 3e, 3.5e not much difference anyways...
To hear some when 3.5e was published, you would think the two as different as night and day. |
| Wood Elf Ranger |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 07:09:53
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
For MuaDib: check out the Faiths and Pantheons 3.5 edition,
3.5 edition  I thought that tome was published under 3e rules.
*shrugs* they don't put what edition it is on the cover 3e, 3.5e not much difference anyways... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 05:59:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd have to check, but I don't know if the Celestial Bureaucracy has ever been detailed.
Only particular references. No concrete statistics I'm afraid. Although, several latter PS tomes detail one or two of the deities of the Bureaucracy... I'll look them up.
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 04:16:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
For MuaDib: check out the Faiths and Pantheons 3.5 edition,
3.5 edition I thought that tome was published under 3e rules. |
| Jerard Doonsay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 03:39:44
quote:
Wooly Rupert
The official 3E cosmology separates the Realms from everything else, cosmically speaking. So, even though we do have gods in the Realms who migrated there from other worlds, that is now officially impossible -- those other worlds aren't there for them to migrate to and from.
That's still a bit confusing. I mean, did they just say that those worlds never existed, or is there just a barrier like the one that prevented the Mulhorandi pantheon from getting here all those years ago. And more importantly, why? Why would they cut FR off like that? *pout* |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 03:18:29
quote:
Originally posted by Jerard Doonsay
Where in F&P does it say that the gods can't cross between worlds? As far as I knew, they only reason a god wouldn't was because it wouldn't have any followers in that world. and the racial deities wouldn't have any trouble with that at all.
The official 3E cosmology separates the Realms from everything else, cosmically speaking. So, even though we do have gods in the Realms who migrated there from other worlds, that is now officially impossible -- those other worlds aren't there for them to migrate to and from.
Since this invalidates a good chunk of Realmslore, I toss it out the window. |
| Jerard Doonsay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 01:59:03
Where in F&P does it say that the gods can't cross between worlds? As far as I knew, they only reason a god wouldn't was because it wouldn't have any followers in that world. and the racial deities wouldn't have any trouble with that at all. |
| Wood Elf Ranger |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 01:26:09
For MuaDib: check out the Faiths and Pantheons 3.5 edition, it will answer a lot of your questions and has quite a bit of background on what happened to most every diety during the Time of Troubles among lots of other wonderful information. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 06:58:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you're referring to Forsaken House, I've still not gotten it.
No, I mean the other new Richard Baker novel. 
quote:
I went to Barnes & Noble again this day, and they said they expect it the first week of August. So I have to keep waiting... I'm gonna hit my FLGS sometime in the next couple of days and see if he's got it in yet.
Threaten, intimidate, bribe, or ask nicely. You pick which order.
Let me know when you get it as I'm eager to hear other's thoughts on the novel including even your own. Go figure. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 06:47:42
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for the elves... Well, if you ignore the 3E cosmology (as I do), then Corellon and his bunch are followed by elves on many, many worlds -- which means one heck of a lot of followers. In the old cosmology, there's plenty of elven worlds out there -- enough that the elves are one of the dominant races in space.
You don't even have to factor in other worlds. Pick up Richard Baker's newest novel to get an idea of how many elven forces are still in existence within Faerun.
If you're referring to Forsaken House, I've still not gotten it. I went to Barnes & Noble again this day, and they said they expect it the first week of August. So I have to keep waiting... I'm gonna hit my FLGS sometime in the next couple of days and see if he's got it in yet. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:45:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for the elves... Well, if you ignore the 3E cosmology (as I do), then Corellon and his bunch are followed by elves on many, many worlds -- which means one heck of a lot of followers. In the old cosmology, there's plenty of elven worlds out there -- enough that the elves are one of the dominant races in space.
You don't even have to factor in other worlds. Pick up Richard Baker's newest novel to get an idea of how many elven forces are still in existence within Faerun. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:43:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
I threw Elistree's name in there because the majority of drow follow Lloth and Varehune,
The majority follow Lloth. Vhaeraun is a lesser deity like his sister.
quote:
So I guess a refined version of the question is how many worshippers does a god or goddess need to maintain their divine status? And do the requirements differ depending on what races venerate them?
Page 6 of Faiths and Pantheons has a estimate on what each deity would have in terms of number of followers per their divine rank. To my knowledge, it does not vary depending upon what race venerates them. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:35:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
Its very limiting and doesn't make a huge amount of sense considering all the the forgotten realms dieties appear in Greyhawk and other D&D worlds.
Where are you getting this information that all Faerun deities appear in Greyhawk or other D&D worlds? |
| Ordin_Solandar |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:23:07
Yeah I never quite understood why 3e was so adament that the gods of fearune cannot span multiple worlds. Its very limiting and doesn't make a huge amount of sense considering all the the forgotten realms dieties appear in Greyhawk and other D&D worlds.
Spoilers below:
Like Lloths destructing in the Justicar series tied in so nicely with her dissapearance and later reincarnation during WOTSQ. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:06:13
Ordin, sometimes having a small amount of followers do not make a big impact. Here's an example. Mask is very picky about who is a follower of him or who enters his church, which is one reason why it's been so small. Like it's said in the Erevis Cale trilogy, either the shadow calls to you or it doesn't.
Yet gods like the Shadowlord have not worried about their own existence or losing followers. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 00:48:11
I think that part of the power stems from the power of the faith held by the worshippers. In other words, someone who is truly devout offers more power than one who only pays attention to their god when it's convenient.
The followers of the Dark Maiden are usually a very devout bunch. They may not have as many numbers as that of some of the others, but they have a lot of faith.
I don't think Vhaeraun worries as much about his sister's followers as he does his mother's, and ditto for Eilistraee.
As for the raw numbers of the races... Well, there may be a gazillion goblins out there, but how many actually worship their deities? The average goblin will prolly give a nod to his deity when he thinks it'll help, but that's about it for active worship.
As for the elves... Well, if you ignore the 3E cosmology (as I do), then Corellon and his bunch are followed by elves on many, many worlds -- which means one heck of a lot of followers. In the old cosmology, there's plenty of elven worlds out there -- enough that the elves are one of the dominant races in space. |
| Ordin_Solandar |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 23:05:48
Sorry that Elistree question was kinda vague, so let me clarify:
Evlen dieties have far fewer worshippers then human ones yet they still maintain there godly status. I am curious why they haven't started to croke. After all the number of elves born per year continues to plumet and some of their gods don't have huge numbers of followers. Sunspite ect, I threw Elistree's name in there because the majority of drow follow Lloth and Varehune, they do their utmost as little Llothites to eradicate the followers of the dark maiden.
So I guess a refined version of the question is how many worshippers does a god or goddess need to maintain their divine status? And do the requirements differ depending on what races venerate them?
For instance technically the Goblin dieties should have mucho power because they tend to have horders of worshippers! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 09:51:36
quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
Thanks for the help Master Hamster! 
Hey, that's why we're here! |
| MuadDib |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 08:22:02
Thanks for the help Master Hamster! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 08:01:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
Several questions to fallow:
Officially what is Mad Monkey's status within the celestial beuracracy and the pantheon?
I'd have to check, but I don't know if the Celestial Bureaucracy has ever been detailed.
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
People who arn't atheists, but believe that the gods are mearly beings who have enough power to enforce there will apon the world. Where do they go?
If they don't have a patron deity, into the Wall they go.
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
Why isn't Elistree dead, or failing considering she has so few worshipers. Or do elven dieties require less followers then the human pantheon to continue a devine existance?
The Dark Maiden has got quite a few followers... I, too, would like to know where you got the info saying she has few followers.
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
When magic failed during the death of Mystul why is it that the elven high wizards also suffered a loss of magical power. After all Corellen is attributed with being the source of elven high magic?
Lady Mystra is the source of all magic on Toril. Magic on Toril is the Weave, and she controls it. Elves may have special ties to the Weave thanks to Corellon, but he is not the source of their power. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 07:02:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ordin_Solandar
Why isn't Elistree dead, or failing considering she has so few worshipers. Or do elven dieties require less followers then the human pantheon to continue a devine existance?
How do you see her as having so few worshipers that she would be failing and/or dead? Can you provide some sources for this assertion? |
| Ordin_Solandar |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 06:10:42
Several questions to fallow:
Officially what is Mad Monkey's status within the celestial beuracracy and the pantheon?
People who arn't atheists, but believe that the gods are mearly beings who have enough power to enforce there will apon the world. Where do they go?
Why isn't Elistree dead, or failing considering she has so few worshipers. Or do elven dieties require less followers then the human pantheon to continue a devine existance?
When magic failed during the death of Mystul why is it that the elven high wizards also suffered a loss of magical power. After all Corellen is attributed with being the source of elven high magic? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 00:58:51
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where do they all go...? Humans go to the Fugue Plain, where they are later claimed by their deity. It's not really clear what happens to the souls of other races. We know that elves go to Arvandor, but I believe that's about it.
For the odd cases, I'd say it depends on the pantheon the deity worshipped is a part of. A halfling follower of Tymora, for example, would wind up on the Fugue Plain. If some elf deity actually accepted the worship of a non-elf or non-faerie, then I'd say that the person would, the same as an elf, just kinda transition over from life to Arvandor.
Actually in 3e lore ALL souls, no matter what their race, go to the Fugue. And if any of those souls, again no matter what thier race, are Faithless or False they belong to Kelemvor(sp?).
Which is why I dispute this because it leaves the "human" deity of the dead with way to much power over demihumans, dragons, fey (if fey have souls) monstrous humanoids, etc.
Bah! Another ret-con for me to ignore... I agree with you. Kelly should only get the humies. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 20:24:46
quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
Perhaps this is only true since Kelemvor took over, since he's a far more impartial "judge" than the prior gods of the dead.
It's possible but supposly all souls have always gone to the Fugue and the Faithless and False existed when Myrkul was a god as well. |
| BobROE |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 20:01:47
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Which is why I dispute this because it leaves the "human" deity of the dead with way to much power over demihumans, dragons, fey (if fey have souls) monstrous humanoids, etc.
Perhaps this is only true since Kelemvor took over, since he's a far more impartial "judge" than the prior gods of the dead. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 18:56:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where do they all go...? Humans go to the Fugue Plain, where they are later claimed by their deity. It's not really clear what happens to the souls of other races. We know that elves go to Arvandor, but I believe that's about it.
For the odd cases, I'd say it depends on the pantheon the deity worshipped is a part of. A halfling follower of Tymora, for example, would wind up on the Fugue Plain. If some elf deity actually accepted the worship of a non-elf or non-faerie, then I'd say that the person would, the same as an elf, just kinda transition over from life to Arvandor.
Actually in 3e lore ALL souls, no matter what their race, go to the Fugue. And if any of those souls, again no matter what thier race, are Faithless or False they belong to Kelemvor(sp?).
Which is why I dispute this because it leaves the "human" deity of the dead with way to much power over demihumans, dragons, fey (if fey have souls) monstrous humanoids, etc. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 08:47:13
The best source of info on Faerūn's gods is the three 2nd edition godbooks -- Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities.
Any intelligent creature can worship any deity it feels like worshipping. Drizzt Do'Urden is a famous example of this. He's a drow who worships a human goddess, Mielikki. Tymora is popular among halflings. Gond is popular among gnomes.
Of course, not all deities will accept the worship of all critters. Shevarash, for example, ignores the fey'ri who worship him.
Where do they all go...? Humans go to the Fugue Plain, where they are later claimed by their deity. It's not really clear what happens to the souls of other races. We know that elves go to Arvandor, but I believe that's about it.
For the odd cases, I'd say it depends on the pantheon the deity worshipped is a part of. A halfling follower of Tymora, for example, would wind up on the Fugue Plain. If some elf deity actually accepted the worship of a non-elf or non-faerie, then I'd say that the person would, the same as an elf, just kinda transition over from life to Arvandor.
This page on the Wizards site goes into a nice bit of detail about who did what and where during the ToT. |
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