| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 13 Jun 2004 : 13:20:22
I'm planning to write a fanfic which centres on a huge war which breaks out on along the southern Sword Coast. Amn, Tethyr, Baldur's Gate, etc (along with, amongst others, the Shadow Thieves, Cowled Wizards, Knights of the Shield, and the Cyricists of the Mountain of Skulls & Dark Redoubt) will be forced to work together in the face of two deadly alliances.
The Knights of the Black Gauntlet, the Loviatans of the Black Spires of the Maiden, a bunch of Malarites, and the Banite Zhents are one foe, with the Sythillisan Empire, the Twin Towers Cyricists and the Cyricist Zhents being the other. Naturally the two evil groups hate each other just as much as they hate the kingdoms of the Sword Coast. Other groups and individuals, including Balagos, the Harpers, and the Twisted Rune, will all have a hand in things too.
Obviously I'll need to do a lot of research before I even think of beginning to write this, but unfortunately nearly all my resources are 2nd Edition. I've read through Lands of Intrigue, Empires of the Shining Sea, Cloak & Dagger, etc, but when it comes to certain events that occured after these books were published I'm almost completely clueless ;).
Therefore, I have a few questions:
1) Have the Sythillisians been resting on their laurels since seizing Murann, or have they since attacked elsewhere?
2) I've heard that the Knights of the Black Gauntlet were once part of a larger group, with other members serving Bhaal and Myrkul. Is this true, and if so where can I find more info? Oh, and did Bane's return have much of an impact on the group?
4) I know that the Baldur's Gate games aren't considered canon, but the novels apparently are, so... did the novelization of Throne of Bhaal include the destruction of Saradush from the game? Or was it reduced to "heavily damaged" or something?
5) Are Lord Ketlaar Argrim (of Athkatla) and Watchful Skull Tynnos
Argrim (of the Mountain of Skulls) related? If so, how well do they get on?
6) Have there been any recent developments in Pehllus Tanislove's plot to become king of Amn?
Also, a couple of unrelated questions:
7) The head of the church of Milil, the Patriarch of Song, is said to be probably the best harpist in Aber-Toril, he can enthrall intelligent beings with his music, he seems to be immortal, etc. Sounds very much like he's a Chosen of Milil to me! Are there any other characters like this, i.e. people who could well be Chosen even though it doesn't specifically say they are?
8) I'm looking for the stats for the Company of the Dreaming Dragon (from Crypt of the Shadowking and Curse of the Shadowmage). Preferably 2E, but I'll take 3E if that's all that's available ;). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 01:51:51
Master Krashos,
Eh, who knows. I replied to something of Master Rupert's, and it was a disaster. The shat happens on occasion. I'd say your epic contributions have more than made up for something so small. 
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
I have no idea - to this day - why I posted this back in the day. I was most certainly wrong. The magazines are indeed "canon".
-- George Krashos
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 01:50:32
Master Rupert,
Great. Thank you for that information!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I'm curious, with the massive amount of experience you have overall, what ultimately led to them being canon, no longer being canon, etc.? It seems very chaotic. Was it just the issue of ease of access?
That really interests me a lot as well.
They were canon because TSR/WotC published them and said they were canon.
Dragon+ is a newer thing, though, and I don't know if it's been ruled canon or not. I assume that it is, but since I can't download articles as Word files or pdfs, I'm not bothering to read them.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 01:40:21
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
I have no idea - to this day - why I posted this back in the day. I was most certainly wrong. The magazines are indeed "canon".
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 01:24:32
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I'm curious, with the massive amount of experience you have overall, what ultimately led to them being canon, no longer being canon, etc.? It seems very chaotic. Was it just the issue of ease of access?
That really interests me a lot as well.
They were canon because TSR/WotC published them and said they were canon.
Dragon+ is a newer thing, though, and I don't know if it's been ruled canon or not. I assume that it is, but since I can't download articles as Word files or pdfs, I'm not bothering to read them. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 00:14:43
Master Rupert,
I'm curious, with the massive amount of experience you have overall, what ultimately led to them being canon, no longer being canon, etc.? It seems very chaotic. Was it just the issue of ease of access?
That really interests me a lot as well.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dragon and Dungeon both used to be canon. I've no idea if the Dragon+ thing is considered canon or not; the inability to easily download content has meant I don't bother with it, and WotC hasn't really cared about canon that much since 3E, anyway.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 00:09:20
Dragon and Dungeon both used to be canon. I've no idea if the Dragon+ thing is considered canon or not; the inability to easily download content has meant I don't bother with it, and WotC hasn't really cared about canon that much since 3E, anyway. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 19:31:48
Master Rupert,
Do you know if this was ever decided. I could be wrong, but I could have sworn someone told me in the last week that certain things were not canon source, such as Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
George -- isn't it more the case that Dragon articles are canonical, at least provisionally, but more likely to be contradicted later than a sourcebook or novel reference? Those references are also not immune to contradiction, so it's a matter of degree, and the articles are not cast-iron-invulnerable canon but neither are they not-canonical-at-all? (Otherwise they're less canonical than we know from Ed that his Realmslore postings are!)
Are we now arguing degrees of canonity? Sure, the magazine articles can be more easily contradicted, but WotC hasn't had a problem with casually contradicting years of published Realmslore, regardless of the original source.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 30 Sep 2018 : 19:30:52
Great Reader Kuje,
Was this ever resolved, or did it get transferred to another thread?
I'm quite interested in this. I thought this was about to go full Bloodsport up in this place!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
Sorry I don't agree. All material from Dragon and Dungeon has always been offical canon material for FR and even now in 3e it says 100% Official Canon material. WOTC gives thier okay on all articles printed in both Dungeon and Dragon.
This has been said on record by all editors from both WOTC when they owned Dragon/Dungeon as well as by the guys who run it at Paizo. And even on the WOTC boards, where we can not discuss novels, they now decided that as long as it is in a official canon sourcebook, which includes Dragon/Dungeon, we can discuss the characters from those novels if they were stat'd in Dragon.
Wizo Bigsister posted: "This thread is actually ok. It is focussed on a character not on a book or series of books; and this character appears in other sources besides novels. (Dragon magazine is considered a "canon" or valid source.) Its fine so long as you don't get into criticism of how the writers portrayed this character, or the books he appears in."
So that means to me that WOTC considers Dragon and Dungeon offical canon material otherwise the mods would have been told to close all novel character threads unless those novels had characters stat'd in Dragon.
So you trying to tell me that Ed's articles in Dragon are not canon? How about the stuff they cut from the sourcebooks and put in Dragon all those years ago by Steven, Ed, and many other FR designers? Hogwash.
Sorry George but I don't buy that, but this is highjacking this thread. :)
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:46:49
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
EDIT: Hmm, I just noticed that 5 of the highest ranking Shadow Thieves (Suldax Tampcoin, Kerindra Lynnrenno and 3 unnamed Shades) seem to have disappeared in Lords of Darkness, and two more (Darlan Mortem and Nurlara Haphet) have been added. Are there any source books and/or novels between Cloak & Dagger and Lords of Darkness that explain this?
Nice find. Nothing is coming to mind right now on a tome that detailed this change. I'll be eager to see if anyone else knows of a source explaining this change. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:01:06
That sounds quite an intriguing project. If I have any ideas for events in the "modern day" realms I may volunteer, but at the moment everything I'm coming up with is in 1370 or 1371 ;).
EDIT: Hmm, I just noticed that 5 of the highest ranking Shadow Thieves (Suldax Tampcoin, Kerindra Lynnrenno and 3 unnamed Shades) seem to have disappeared in Lords of Darkness, and two more (Darlan Mortem and Nurlara Haphet) have been added. Are there any source books and/or novels between Cloak & Dagger and Lords of Darkness that explain this?
If not I'll probably attempt to do so myself. For example, Suldax could have been taken prisoner by the rebels in Riatavin, and the unnamed Frontier's Sect, Sea's Sect and Sword's Sect Shades may have been either killed by or joined with the Sythillisians. Or maybe Darlan and Kerindra were two of the unnamed Shades, and they've been reassigned due to the crisis in southern Amn. |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 22:08:49
Seeing as you obviously have a lot of FR knowledge, and now a flare for timelines - maybe you could join our timeline project? |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 00:41:33
Back on-topic, I've finished compiling a timeline of relevant events (mostly from LoI and C&D), and have started adding some of my own. Some samples (work-in-progress of course  ):
5th of Eleint 1370: Fire giants are spotted exiting the forest of Mir a few miles north of Ithal Pass. At first the generals at the pass are worried that the forces at Kzelter have allied themselves with the giants, but the group begin heading north rather than south. Runners are dispatched to Saradush to warn them of the approaching threat.
6th of Eleint 1370: The giants begin attacking local farms and villages. Within a week, there are no buildings left standing between Ithal Pass and Saradush. Most inhabitants survive however, having fled at the mere sight of a hoarde of approaching giants. The majority head towards Saradush and Borakmordin, though a few of the more foolhardy villagers risk venturing into the forest of Mir. The forces at Ithal Pass are outraged by the destruction but dare not intervene, knowing the Banites would swiftly take advantage of any reduction in troops.
1st of Nightal 1370: Clerics of Shar take advantage of the chaotic situation in Murann and launch a furious attack on Moonmaiden's Hall. Only the head of the temple, Lunar Crister Flechan (who was away recruiting members for a resistance movement) survives the slaughter.
10th of Mirtal 1372: In Murann, members of the resistance movement (including Captain Ordl "Starpoon" Fiathrnseveral, Lunar Crister Flechan, Shadowmaster Arialle Systone and several of her thieves) manage to locate Phaan Telwyvvy, who is being held prisoner by a group of hobgoblins led by a particularly nasty bugbear shaman. By making use of the city sewer system, they almost manage to escape Murann without incident.
As they near the surface, however, their exit is blocked by a group of Cyricists, led by Blackwill Haarken Akhmelere himself! Phaan's rescuers manage to defeat the evil priests, though Akhmelere teleports away, vowing vengeance. As the group exits the sewers, Pommarch Tyrda Q'Helvor and several Cowled Wizards appear before them in a flash of magical light. Tyrda hurriedly thank the heroes for their assistance, wish them and the other members of the resistance luck, and teleport away with Phaan. |
| Sarta |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 23:14:17
Regardless of whether or not it has been mentioned in source materials or not, it is a safe bet that every country in Faerun has got to be scared to death of the return of Shade. The legacy of the wonders and power of the Netheril empire are known to all, even if few details remain.
No nation feels safe when a new power shows up on the map. Especially when that power is known to be superior in magical force and agressive, both of which have already been displayed.
Some might be hoping to capitalize on the short-term gain that they will receive as buffer nations are busy dealing with Shade, but in the back of their mind will remain the fear that they will one day be in the same spot as well.
Sarta |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 21:10:09
Given the typical Amnish dislike of magic, I'd say they wouldn't be too thrilled about it.
It'd be interesting to know how the Night Parade feel about the return of Shade, since they're also descendants of the Netheril who escaped to another plane (though in their case the demiplane of Nightmare rather than Shadow).
It'd also be nice to know what the relationship is like between Shade and the Malaugrym, since they're both residents of the demiplane of Shadow who're descended from Faerunian mages. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 21:04:16
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Speaking of that series, has there ever been any mention on how Amn or Tethyr feel regarding the Return of the Shade?
Hmm, I can't recall any in the novels nor in the Player's Guide.... So my answer would be no there is no mention..... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 20:53:11
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
But blowing up Evereska, Tilverton, and melting the High Ice making many of the lands get flooded or have strange weather isn't explosive?
Speaking of that series, has there ever been any mention on how Amn or Tethyr feel regarding the Return of the Shade? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 19:48:30
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
It is just that - as many of the 'BG isn't canon' folk say - the events therein are very... explosive! And include, the destruction (or near to) of Saradush, a huge Bhaalspawn war across the east coast, and eventually a risen deity. So whilst it is undeniably canon (IMO - it is just that, for one thing, as a published novel it seems very unfair on the author to say it isn't), you don't necessarily have to incorporate its events.
But blowing up Evereska, Tilverton, and melting the High Ice making many of the lands get flooded or have strange weather isn't explosive? Or having the drow invade Evermeet, etc.
Come now, there are a lot of FR novels that are just as explosive....
|
| Sarelle |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 19:23:39
About Saradush, nbnmare.
I'd always assumed Throne of Bhaal, having not been listed in the FR timeline like Shadows of Amn, hadn't actually occurred yet (despite being canon - I know, that gives me a mild headache too).
It is just that - as many of the 'BG isn't canon' folk say - the events therein are very... explosive! And include, the destruction (or near to) of Saradush, a huge Bhaalspawn war across the east coast, and eventually a risen deity. So whilst it is undeniably canon (IMO - it is just that, for one thing, as a published novel it seems very unfair on the author to say it isn't), you don't necessarily have to incorporate its events.
On the other hand, if you want to include those fire giants, follow Mr. Schend's sound advice. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 18:49:57
*This month's* Dragon isn't obscure, but back issues are hard to reference and easily overlooked on a tight writing schedule, just as buried novel references are easy to miss. And apart from whatever inside knowledge George has about the policy, a couple of articles have clearly been recently disregarded: Robert Sullivan's "Imaskarcana: Faces of Magic" in Dragon #281 and Eric Boyd's "Llurth Dreier: City of Ooze" in Polyhedron #140. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 18:07:50
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
That's what I said. The degrees aren't formal, and we don't have to argue them, but we know they're there: information from a source that's obscure or not well looked upon is more vulnerable than the name of the Forest-Kingdom, no?
True, but I'd hardly call Dragon obscure or not well looked upon... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 17:47:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are we now arguing degrees of canonity?
If the thread has taken such a turn, it has remained much more civil than other discussions I've seen on this topic. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 17:42:57
That's what I said. The degrees aren't formal, and we don't have to argue them, but we know they're there: information from a source that's obscure or not well looked upon is more vulnerable than the name of the Forest-Kingdom, no? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 16:58:11
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
George -- isn't it more the case that Dragon articles are canonical, at least provisionally, but more likely to be contradicted later than a sourcebook or novel reference? Those references are also not immune to contradiction, so it's a matter of degree, and the articles are not cast-iron-invulnerable canon but neither are they not-canonical-at-all? (Otherwise they're less canonical than we know from Ed that his Realmslore postings are!)
Are we now arguing degrees of canonity? Sure, the magazine articles can be more easily contradicted, but WotC hasn't had a problem with casually contradicting years of published Realmslore, regardless of the original source. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 16:23:17
George -- isn't it more the case that Dragon articles are canonical, at least provisionally, but more likely to be contradicted later than a sourcebook or novel reference? Those references are also not immune to contradiction, so it's a matter of degree, and the articles are not cast-iron-invulnerable canon but neither are they not-canonical-at-all? (Otherwise they're less canonical than we know from Ed that his Realmslore postings are!) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 05:41:34
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Yes, but those are 2nd edition and well all know that without prestige classes such write ups are clearly worthless. I take it the cast of characters from the novel never got a 3rd edition update in Dragon?
Strange, they all seemed to have some tome strapped to their backs...E...B...E....R....I can't make out the rest.
Well Zaranda is a 7th level fighter/6th level wizard in the FRCS, page 158. Lhaeo/Haedrak is a 2nd level fighter/6th level wizard, same page.
HAHAAH better watch it! It's WOTC trying to subliminally force you to buy that thing that must not be named, by using flying cows, that have that thing that must not be named strapped to thier backs! |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 05:34:30
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
They weren't really needed to be written up in Dragon because they were written up in Heroes Lorebook.
Yes, but those are 2nd edition and well all know that without prestige classes such write ups are clearly worthless. I take it the cast of characters from the novel never got a 3rd edition update in Dragon?
quote:
Better watch for those bovines though! They might crash through your window! :) 
Strange, they all seemed to have some tome strapped to their backs...E...B...E....R....I can't make out the rest. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 05:15:00
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Well, I never thought I'd live to see the day someone posted something from Wizo Bigsister as a positive example in support of their argument. <Sirius looks out windows> Are those bovines I see flying?
You can discuss novel characters that have stats in Dragon? <Shudder> I'd hate to be a newbie to the Realms and not know who I could or could not talk about then. I hope someone has a master list of such characters that fall into this category.
And to slant this back on topic, have any of the characters from the novel War in Tethyr appeared in Dragon?
They weren't really needed to be written up in Dragon because they were written up in Heroes Lorebook.
Better watch for those bovines though! They might crash through your window! :) |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 04:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
This has been said on record by all editors from both WOTC when they owned Dragon/Dungeon as well as by the guys who run it at Paizo. And even on the WOTC boards where we can not discuss novels, they now decided that as long as it is in a official canon sourcebook, which includes Dragon/Dungeon, we can discuss the characters from those novels if they were stat'd in Dragon.
Wizo Bigsister posted: "This thread is actually ok. It is focussed on a character not on a book or series of books; and this character appears in other sources besides novels. (Dragon magazine is considered a "canon" or valid source.) Its fine so long as you don't get into criticism of how the writers portrayed this character, or the books he appears in."
Well, I never thought I'd live to see the day someone posted something from Wizo Bigsister as a positive example in support of their argument. <Sirius looks out windows> Are those bovines I see flying?
You can discuss novel characters that have stats in Dragon? <Shudder> I'd hate to be a newbie to the Realms and not know who I could or could not talk about then. I hope someone has a master list of such characters that fall into this category.
And to slant this back on topic, have any of the characters from the novel War in Tethyr appeared in Dragon? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 04:17:32
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
Sorry I don't agree. All material from Dragon and Dungeon has always been offical canon material for FR and even now in 3e it says 100% Official Canon material. WOTC gives thier okay on all articles printed in both Dungeon and Dragon.
This has been said on record by all editors from both WOTC when they owned Dragon/Dungeon as well as by the guys who run it at Paizo. And even on the WOTC boards, where we can not discuss novels, they now decided that as long as it is in a official canon sourcebook, which includes Dragon/Dungeon, we can discuss the characters from those novels if they were stat'd in Dragon.
Wizo Bigsister posted: "This thread is actually ok. It is focussed on a character not on a book or series of books; and this character appears in other sources besides novels. (Dragon magazine is considered a "canon" or valid source.) Its fine so long as you don't get into criticism of how the writers portrayed this character, or the books he appears in."
So that means to me that WOTC considers Dragon and Dungeon offical canon material otherwise the mods would have been told to close all novel character threads unless those novels had characters stat'd in Dragon.
So you trying to tell me that Ed's articles in Dragon are not canon? How about the stuff they cut from the sourcebooks and put in Dragon all those years ago by Steven, Ed, and many other FR designers? Hogwash.
Sorry George but I don't buy that, but this is highjacking this thread. :) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 03:54:48
Dragon magazine articles aren't 'canon' or official either with respect to FR.
-- George Krashos
|
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