| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| novaes |
Posted - 06 Jul 2021 : 21:29:50
Dear sages;
Canonically, is it possible that there are multiple versions of the entire Cosmology of the Realms?
I'm not just referring to the various versions of the Material plane, but the entire Great Wheel.
In that case, would it be possible for several versions of the gods to exist?
Another issue, in the various editions there was a lot of change in relation to the origin of some gods, especially in different scenarios.
My question is, the gods in this scenario are the same as in others. To be clearer, is Nerull from Nentir Vale the same as from Greyhawk?
Finally, as you canonically explain sudden changes, such as the appearance of the Aarakroca or the different versions of the Phoenix, over the various editions.
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| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 23:38:51
-Stardeep was a solid book. I gave it a 3 out of 5 when I reviewed it. Went back to actually read my review. Liked all the protagonists and antagonists (except for one). The plot, I liked. Couple of details I didn't, which I guess is why I rated it 3/5. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 17:42:26
Interesting. That reminds me I have to finish Stardeep. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 17:07:40
-Bruce Cordell introduced a very tangible alternate/parallel dimension in Darkvision. Qari and Ususi were not not sisters, as they believed, but were actually the same person, but from different realities. If you extrapolate from that, there would be deities in that other reality that Qari was originally from. Their relation with the deities from what we'd consider the Prime, well, who knows. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 10:24:42
WotC was careful to not repeat the mistakes they'd made earlier with Spelljammer - bold and creative but overall just a big ugly mess of half-disconnected bits of low-quality writing. Spelljammer could've been a lot more than it was, they did such an awful job of disorganizing that it ended up being almost unplayable. A shame that they botched it so badly - they had numerous versions of D&D and numerous campaign settings on the go at the time but basically treated Spelljammer as a sort of dumping ground for all the odd rules and adventures which didn't fit precisely anywhere else - it really did have endless potential for imagination and adventure in the beginning.
So Planescape was a carefully planned setting even before it launched, well-structured and surprisingly self-consistent (more or less). Of course the products were filled with endless exaggeration, elaboration, fabrication, speculation - basically hints and ideas for DMs to develop (or ideas to distract/misinform the players, even if they'd read the DM's sourcebooks) - but taken as a whole, the planeslore was a comprehensive and cohesive mass.
Guide To Hell, Warriors Of Heaven, and Die Vecna Die were not part of Planescape proper, even if they did carry the Planescape logo/branding. They were basically shoehorned fanfics written by people who happen to work for WotC - they contained a lot of original and useful lore but they also introduced a lot of self-conflicting lore which contradicted everything published in the dozens of Planescape products which came before.
Planescape was all mid-2E and late-2E eras. Abandoned after 2E, effectively obsolete (several different times, several different ways) in 3E as new planar concepts were introduced. If WotC ever did (or will) publish any Planescape products in 4E, 5E, and beyond then they'll be entirely new things which have little to do with the original aside from continuing the brand name. There were a lot of third-party (mostly d20 system) sourcebooks which expanded planeslore for Planescape and/or for core D&D, many were excellent, none are official canon published by Wizbro. |
| Marc |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 08:00:48
Die Vecna Die is not really Planescape, and was published along with The Guide to Hell and Warriors of Heaven, sourcebooks that tried to retcon some of previous lore. Planescape was all written by unreliable narrators, with condescending attitudes towards the Primes who had less experience exploring the planes.
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| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 07:17:40
The thing with Planescape is that is a series of condescending books written to tell DMs they are wrong and that Planescape is the actual truer truth of all truthiness (TM) in D&D. So, yeah, those books can say whatever they want, I don't use them as a trustworthy source of information. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Jul 2021 : 03:14:22
I think it was in the first version of the Planescape boxset. The chapter which (mainly) focuses on describing/explaining Sigil. It's populated by a lot of folks who insist that it's not the "same" Sigil that they remember from before, it's somehow "changed" or "wrong". And they don't even agree on all the differences with each other. They could be confused or deluded or senile or mentally/magically/psychically damaged - or they could be right. |
| Marc |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 16:37:07
I mostly ignore that lore, at the end of 2e, after Vecna's defeat in Sigil, the Lady of Pain uttered three Words of Creation to repair the planar structure, but the damage was great and it caused the Prime to shatter into many Material Planes, and even some outer planes changed. Every other shattering event after that like the Spellplague and the Sundering made more or less changes.
Before that there was the first/shattered crystal sphere from Spelljammer from which most creatures originated, obscure lore possibly now resurfaced as the First World now mentioned in 5e Tasha's Cauldron.
I don't know that Planescape mentioned another Sigil, only that the baatezu tried to build another version of it. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 10 Jul 2021 : 00:37:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think of the deities as acting like multinational companies.
ZeusCorp may make one product in the US and the same thing in Britain, but something somewhat different in France. And if the French business takes a hit for some reason or changes direction or even has to shut down, it doesn't affect the US and British branches.
Yeah, I think the multispheric deities have a "core" they stem from (a core Corellon, Lolth, Gruumsh, etc), and then they have parts of themselves in multiple worlds, but that part is also its own entity, and what they do in that world varies, which is why we have different origin stories, and other such variations. |
| novaes |
Posted - 07 Jul 2021 : 16:47:29
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, in "The Ruin" ("The Year of the Rogue Dragons" final novel), one of the characters is trapped in an elven spell while in the ruins where the ancient elves created the Dracorage mythal. The spell sent him to another world where he lived the life he always wanted. When he realized something was wrong and wanted to return, one of the elven ghosts said that this was one of multiple Torils "lying side by side like pearls on a string". This alone pretty much confirms the existence of the many Torils of the multiverse.
In the novel "Sword of the Gods ", an avatar of Oghma ask the protagonist, Demascus, about his world of origin. While he says he is not allowed to say much, he reveals that he comes from "another continuum". In another novel, "The Gates of Madness", it is revealed that Demascus comes from the world of the Nentir Vale. The bad guys there created a Vast Gate and he was sent to the world of the Forgotten Realms by accident. It's implied also that the gods of his world can't grant him powers in this world, and that's why he now works as a mercenary for the gods of the FR.
This implies 2 things:
1. That "continuum" means "alternate multiverse".
2. That the Nentir Vale lies in an "alternate multiverse" different from the Forgotten Realms' multiverse.
Which means that the cosmology of the Nentir Vale (the World Axis) exist in a different multiverse than that of FR (the Great Wheel?).
quote:
Originally posted by novaes
In that case, would it be possible for several versions of the gods to exist?
Another issue, in the various editions there was a lot of change in relation to the origin of some gods, especially in different scenarios.
My question is, the gods in this scenario are the same as in others. To be clearer, is Nerull from Nentir Vale the same as from Greyhawk?
You already posted the excerpt from "Faiths and Pantheons" (3.x), and there is nothing about the Nerull from the Greyhawk world. Actually, in Dragon 372, the 4e guys even say that 4e Bane and FR Bane are different entities despite having the same name, and this can be true for all gods.
quote:
Originally posted by novaes
Finally, as you canonically explain sudden changes, such as the appearance of the Aarakroca or the different versions of the Phoenix, over the various editions.
Well, this guy explains it better than I could:
https://sites.google.com/site/dndphilmont/d-d-realities
My dear, thank you very much. You helped me immeasurably.
I thank all those who proposed to answer me too. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jul 2021 : 16:01:45
I think of the deities as acting like multinational companies.
ZeusCorp may make one product in the US and the same thing in Britain, but something somewhat different in France. And if the French business takes a hit for some reason or changes direction or even has to shut down, it doesn't affect the US and British branches. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jul 2021 : 12:48:59
As far as the deities go, and them being the "same" deity between worlds.... one must remember that the gods aren't part of the world. They influence it, but they're not actually walking around like the stories of Norse and Greek Myth would have it be. Now they CAN do so, but it involves creating an avatar in some form (whether that's possessing a body by placing a portion of their intellect within it, creating a body from nothing (classic avatar) which they can in theory reabsorb, or the more odd version of a manifestation. Manifestations were found amongst the Mulan people, and they were like what we picture of greek and norse myth in a way, in that the god created a body, poured some portion of himself into it, but then separated it and sent it out. So, in other words, the manifestation of Isis had no ties to the Egyptian goddess Isis, other than originally being created by her. There may have been other manifestations from non-mulan cultures as well, as we know that Mielikki was prime bound prior to the Time of Troubles (when all manifestations went away and the gods got outer planar existences).
Regarding multispheric deities, such as Tyr, there is a "separate instance" of them for the realms different from their instance everywhere else. I kind of imagine that realmspace has another dimension/plane tied to it, just like there's a dimension of time tied to it, and only beings with divine rank can exist in this place, and that its in this "place" that all gods somehow exist (and the "laws" of physics, magic, etc... that exist there are probably beyond our comprehension). Ao controls access to this place, and you don't so much enter as he allows you to create a new aspect of yourself inside of its boundaries.
This idea begins to fray a little bit whenever you get to the outer planes and divine domains and things like the Abyss, in which one asks "how many Orcus' are there and how many copies of his layer of the abyss". My PERSONAL take on that is this.... the Xth layer of the abyss that is Orcus' domain ... it is supposed to be "infinite", as are all outer planes. I propose however that it is finite... for Toril. It's also finite for Greyhawk. It's also finite for everywhere there's a layer where there is an Orcus. Then I propose that EACH of these finite abyssal layers are actually linked at some point between each of them (there may be multiple such interconnections... such that if there are 153 primes with "Orcus", there's 153 links on each of those separate finite abyssal layers.... causing the abyss to appear infinite. These interconnections may very well be huge as well, and one might not normally realize that they've passed from one worlds abyss to the other, but passing between them might only be achievable at certain times, etc... Finally, I propose that multispheric demon lords have learned something of the tricks of the gods (especially since they can have divine followers), and so there are aspects of them in their alternate layers, and these aspects can be killed.... and the death of an aspect just might collapse that layer after a period of time if a new aspect doesn't get generated.
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| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Jul 2021 : 05:22:55
Well, in "The Ruin" ("The Year of the Rogue Dragons" final novel), one of the characters is trapped in an elven spell while in the ruins where the ancient elves created the Dracorage mythal. The spell sent him to another world where he lived the life he always wanted. When he realized something was wrong and wanted to return, one of the elven ghosts said that this was one of multiple Torils "lying side by side like pearls on a string". This alone pretty much confirms the existence of the many Torils of the multiverse.
In the novel "Sword of the Gods ", an avatar of Oghma ask the protagonist, Demascus, about his world of origin. While he says he is not allowed to say much, he reveals that he comes from "another continuum". In another novel, "The Gates of Madness", it is revealed that Demascus comes from the world of the Nentir Vale. The bad guys there created a Vast Gate and he was sent to the world of the Forgotten Realms by accident. It's implied also that the gods of his world can't grant him powers in this world, and that's why he now works as a mercenary for the gods of the FR.
This implies 2 things:
1. That "continuum" means "alternate multiverse".
2. That the Nentir Vale lies in an "alternate multiverse" different from the Forgotten Realms' multiverse.
Which means that the cosmology of the Nentir Vale (the World Axis) exist in a different multiverse than that of FR (the Great Wheel?).
quote:
Originally posted by novaes
In that case, would it be possible for several versions of the gods to exist?
Another issue, in the various editions there was a lot of change in relation to the origin of some gods, especially in different scenarios.
My question is, the gods in this scenario are the same as in others. To be clearer, is Nerull from Nentir Vale the same as from Greyhawk?
You already posted the excerpt from "Faiths and Pantheons" (3.x), and there is nothing about the Nerull from the Greyhawk world. Actually, in Dragon 372, the 4e guys even say that 4e Bane and FR Bane are different entities despite having the same name, and this can be true for all gods.
quote:
Originally posted by novaes
Finally, as you canonically explain sudden changes, such as the appearance of the Aarakroca or the different versions of the Phoenix, over the various editions.
Well, this guy explains it better than I could:
https://sites.google.com/site/dndphilmont/d-d-realities
|
| novaes |
Posted - 07 Jul 2021 : 02:35:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Planescape lore mentioned another Sigil, a different one (a different place) than usual. Usually in the form of (unreliable) reports from (unreliable) planeswalkers, sometimes written in the usual Planescape-narrative style which can't be taken seriously, can't be entirely factual, and can't be ignored.
D&D's cosmology has already changed substantially across editions. To the point where the Great Wheel, the Cosmic Tree, the Astral Sea, and other incompatible metaphors have been used to describe worlds, planes, and cosmos ... and each of these paradigms allows travellers to access certain corners of the universe which just can't be reached from (or just don't exist in) the others.
So I say yes, multiple cosmologies = multiple cosmos. Each with their own unique versions of places, people, and powers. It's technically not canon because each revision retcons and supplants those which came before - yet it's hard to ignore decades of lore written by better people than Wizbro has on staff today.
Where can I find this Planescape information? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Jul 2021 : 02:10:01
Planescape lore mentioned another Sigil, a different one (a different place) than usual. Usually in the form of (unreliable) reports from (unreliable) planeswalkers, sometimes written in the usual Planescape-narrative style which can't be taken seriously, can't be entirely factual, and can't be ignored.
D&D's cosmology has already changed substantially across editions. To the point where the Great Wheel, the Cosmic Tree, the Astral Sea, and other incompatible metaphors have been used to describe worlds, planes, and cosmos ... and each of these paradigms allows travellers to access certain corners of the universe which just can't be reached from (or just don't exist in) the others.
So I say yes, multiple cosmologies = multiple cosmos. Each with their own unique versions of places, people, and powers. It's technically not canon because each revision retcons and supplants those which came before - yet it's hard to ignore decades of lore written by better people than Wizbro has on staff today. |
| novaes |
Posted - 06 Jul 2021 : 23:58:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Canonically, the only things close to a parallel universe that I can think of, in the entirety of the published D&D multiverse, involve time travel and rewriting timelines.
We have the history of the Spellweavers, in which they wiped out their own race and the survivors are trying to change history to prevent that.
And there was a novel written for Dragonlance that covered that alternate timeline of Fistandantilus being the Master of Past and Present. This timeline was essentially overwritten by Raistlin's actions (not to mention the fact that even in the Legends trilogy, there are references to Raistlin overwriting that other timeline). You also have the alternate timeline Caramon and Tasslehoff saw and then went back to their own time to prevent.
But that's it. Actual parallel universes, as seen in movies and comics where (keeping it FR) Sammaster didn't go crazy or where Tyche didn't split, or things like that? Nothing like that that I'm aware of, for any D&D setting.
There is a lot of potential for adventure, there -- but also a lot of potential for it to go off the rails and get ridiculous.
In the book "Faiths and Pantheons" of the 3rd edition there is the following quote:
"The deities of Toril can be divided into two groups: native deities and
immigrant (or interloper) deities. The distinction is largely meaningless, outside of obscure theological debates, for there is absolutely no difference from the perspective of the mortal races of Toril.
Native deities are those who arose during or after the founding of
this world and are only worshiped here. Immigrant deities are those
who were worshiped on other worlds and on other planes before
their followers entered Toril via portals and other means. Once a
deity is accepted into the pantheons of Toril, there is no difference
between the two groups, since each immigrant deity has a local
aspect, independent of other world-based aspects he or she might
possess. For example, although Labelas Enoreth and Clangeddin Silverbeard battled each other during the Time of Troubles on the isle
of Ruathym, any enmity stemming from that clash does not extend
to other worlds. Likewise, Lolth in some other world differs from
Lolth in Faerūn. If in some other world adventurers sought out
Lolth in her lair and slew her, her local aspect would be unaffected.
Be that as it may, most native deities are venerated primarily by
races that arose from the primordial chaos: dragons, humans, lizardfolk, nagas, yuan-ti, locathah, doppelgangers, and the various fey
races, such as sprites. Likewise, primarily immigrant races, such as
the elves who arrived in Faerūn countless millennia ago, venerate
immigrant deities they brought with them, in this case the Seldarine. This distinction also serves to explain why there are so many
human deities compared to some of the other demihuman races: The
humans founded numerous cultures across Faerūn venerating local
native deities and continue to worship those deities long after the
original cultures have vanished or blended into others."
Is this "local aspect" not a kind of alternative or parallel version of the deity? Or is it something else, could you explain? |
| Baltas |
Posted - 06 Jul 2021 : 23:10:09
Well, Oerth has several alternative versions of itself, and even counterparts from them crossed. Like a (more) evil version of Robilar. Iggwilv also fought and defeated an alternate, good version of herself, this this was in the 4E era.
There mentions of alternate multiverses in 4E, specifically in article in Dragon #373 about the 4E core version of the Sharn, there was described a multiverse/timeline were Tharizdun won, corrupted, or destroyed everything, as well as cast away his divinity and ascended into something...more.
In Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal, one of the test/challenge in Bhaal's realm, summon an alternate version of player character, that wasn't adopted by Gorion (Sarevok was instead, with the player character seemingly being rised by Rieltar Anchev ), as an oponent, though this possibly was just a spiritual construct or temporary temporal aberration, rather than someone summoned from an permanent alternate universe/timeline. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Jul 2021 : 22:20:12
Canonically, the only things close to a parallel universe that I can think of, in the entirety of the published D&D multiverse, involve time travel and rewriting timelines.
We have the history of the Spellweavers, in which they wiped out their own race and the survivors are trying to change history to prevent that.
And there was a novel written for Dragonlance that covered that alternate timeline of Fistandantilus being the Master of Past and Present. This timeline was essentially overwritten by Raistlin's actions (not to mention the fact that even in the Legends trilogy, there are references to Raistlin overwriting that other timeline). You also have the alternate timeline Caramon and Tasslehoff saw and then went back to their own time to prevent.
But that's it. Actual parallel universes, as seen in movies and comics where (keeping it FR) Sammaster didn't go crazy or where Tyche didn't split, or things like that? Nothing like that that I'm aware of, for any D&D setting.
There is a lot of potential for adventure, there -- but also a lot of potential for it to go off the rails and get ridiculous. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Jul 2021 : 22:06:18
Nothing official, just my theory drawn from scattered bits across multiple editions both core and FR.
There is really no other way to explain the presence of so many identical creatures in so many different worlds, especially when each one has it's own origin story on their own world. |
| novaes |
Posted - 06 Jul 2021 : 22:03:46
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
alternate dimensions is my thing, its what i use to explain all the differences.
A couple of examples we know of that could be interpreted as being from alternate dimensions - the entire Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheon. The inspiration for them is taken from real earth but there are enough differences to make them not be the same and repeated references to the Mulhorandi and Untheric people says they came from another world - not earth specifically.
Tyr, most assume he is the Norse god, but he is different enough not to be and Ed has implied that the Tyr we know of today is an amalgamation of many different justice related quasi divine and demi divine beings that all have Tyr in the name.
The Tyr thing alone i find as the most intriguing. If Tyr interloped from another world or plane, the fact that there were multiple other justice gods all called Tyr says to me that there are many parallel dimensions with lots of similarities.
In the end i used some stuff from basic D&D and the immortal boxed set to come up with a theory. Monster manual lore makes numerous mentions of a time before the material plane which ended and left us with such horrors as the Aboleth who were from that time and place. In the immortals boxed set the end game is to fight against Chaos and the huge vortex that threatens to destroy everything. My theory is that the immortals lost, Chaos won, the universe was destroyed but in its destruction the Multiverse was born, a series of mini universes each trying to follow the original plan of the universe in their own but slightly different way.
Each time a mini verse fails it shatters and several smaller new ones replace it. Each of these crystal spheres we have are a mini verse. The most well known ones are Athas, Toril, Krynn, Oerth, but there are other lesser well known ones like Abeir. The Tearfall did in fact split the original Abeir Toril into two similar but separate mini verses.
Just my theory, use what you will, but it allows you the freedom to do whatever you want.
I also have a similar perspective to yours.
I really like this idea of multiple universes.
But I didn't know if there was enough canonical foundation to admit such a thing.
Your answer helped me a lot, was there anything else to expand on this question? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Jul 2021 : 21:45:29
alternate dimensions is my thing, its what i use to explain all the differences.
A couple of examples we know of that could be interpreted as being from alternate dimensions - the entire Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheon. The inspiration for them is taken from real earth but there are enough differences to make them not be the same and repeated references to the Mulhorandi and Untheric people says they came from another world - not earth specifically.
Tyr, most assume he is the Norse god, but he is different enough not to be and Ed has implied that the Tyr we know of today is an amalgamation of many different justice related quasi divine and demi divine beings that all have Tyr in the name.
The Tyr thing alone i find as the most intriguing. If Tyr interloped from another world or plane, the fact that there were multiple other justice gods all called Tyr says to me that there are many parallel dimensions with lots of similarities.
In the end i used some stuff from basic D&D and the immortal boxed set to come up with a theory. Monster manual lore makes numerous mentions of a time before the material plane which ended and left us with such horrors as the Aboleth who were from that time and place. In the immortals boxed set the end game is to fight against Chaos and the huge vortex that threatens to destroy everything. My theory is that the immortals lost, Chaos won, the universe was destroyed but in its destruction the Multiverse was born, a series of mini universes each trying to follow the original plan of the universe in their own but slightly different way.
Each time a mini verse fails it shatters and several smaller new ones replace it. Each of these crystal spheres we have are a mini verse. The most well known ones are Athas, Toril, Krynn, Oerth, but there are other lesser well known ones like Abeir. The Tearfall did in fact split the original Abeir Toril into two similar but separate mini verses.
Just my theory, use what you will, but it allows you the freedom to do whatever you want. |
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