| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 27 Nov 2020 : 21:18:53
Fellow Scribes,
I am looking to know more about the Exodus of the Leirans in 173DR, from Halruaa, and have several questions about it. I'm hoping someone may have some insight about it.
Question 1
The Exodus entry begins with the entry of, quote:
This excerpt is from the minutes of the Council of Elders, when that august body convened in the Year of Screaming Sharn to select a new Netyarch. (GHotR, p65)
Does that political process play out absent the viewership of the populace of Halruaa? It appears so when I read from FR16: The Shining South that, quote:
When the wizard-king dies, or steps down, his successor is chosen from among the ranks of the Elders. The Elders pick the most powerful of their number to lead. A complicated system involving level of power, ranking of specialization, and opinions expressed by the Elders, is used to determine the new leader. The last three leaders have all been divination specialists. It is thought that these are the most powerful of the wizards. Knowledge is power, great knowledge is great power. (FR16: The Shining South, p4-5)
Question 2
Is anyone aware of any more information about "Delbuestur Garamond"? He is identified as a Servant of the Mists, and since a person has to be at least 16th level to be on the council, I am assuming he was a Council member. Also, for the fact that Servant Garamond of the Mist was speaking on behalf of Leirans, I am assuming he was a senior Council member. Would that be correct?
Question 3
Though it is stated clearly in the quote that Servant Garamond of the Mist rises, quote:
...today to note my opposition to the election of yet another Netyarch in the grip of the Church of Mystra. (GHotR, p65)
, what was going on that led to such strong and direct opposition to the selection of the Netyarch in that specific election? It is clear that quote:
...the stranglehold that worshipers of Mystra and Azuth have gained over the Council Elders...(GHotR, p66)
, was a symptom of the problems. They clearly must have been pushing for certain policy prescriptions, or something else, beyond merely being outnumbered.
Question 4
The next line says, quote:
Cries from the Crowd: For shame! For shame! (GHotR, p65)
Is that only the Council of Elder's, or would that have been observing citizens as well?
Question 5, 6, 7, & 8
Servant Garamond of the Mist goes on to say, quote:
Although the Lady of Mysteries governs the Weave, she sees fit to let other gods oversee specific schools of magic. If Mystra can abide the existence of Azuth and Leira and Savras, why should the council single out their followers as second-class citizens who are unworthy of leadership positions within our realm? (GHotR, p65)
(5) Was there anything to demonstrate that the followers of Leira were in fact being treated as "second-class citizens", or was that hyperbola predicated upon the anger of a sense of disenfranchisement, as opposed to actual mistreatment?
(6) It is clear from an earlier quote that followers of Mystra and Azuth dominated the Council. There is a distinct lack of acknowledgement regarding followers of Savras. Is this an implicit acknowledgement of the approximate time of Savras' loss to Azuth in the Year of the Hangman's Noose (161DR), since it is known that, quote:
Some time in the first few centuries of the Dalereckoning calendar, Azuth came into conflict with a minor southern deity of divinations, Savras the All-Seeing. (Magic of Faerun, p6)
?
(7) Regarding Savras, if that is an implicit affirmation of the time by which Savras lost his battle with Azuth the Magister, is that the reason Savras had such a lack of representation on the Council since quote:
Savras's worship dwindled after his imprisonment (Magic of Faerun, p6)
, or were there enough followers still active a mere (12) years later that it was a situation indicative of second-class treatment for them as well?
(8)] Assuming that Savras and Azuth battled in or approximate to 161DR, then how would it be that Azuth had his apotheosis as a deity (or becoming a deity) in 147DR, yet be clearly a mortal when he fights Savras?
Question 9
Towards the end of the Exodus "conversation", it is written that, quote:
Cry from the Crowd: Liar! You Leirans seek only to sow confusion. I doubt there’s more than one ship, and that one is more likely fleeing than heading toward some mythical land!
Why is Servant Garamond of the Mist being called, and seemingly his compatriots of Leira, a liar?
I know that may seem like an odd question, because Leira is listed as the deity of liars in the multiple religious texts. However, it is pretty clear that in 173DR, her followers were active civic participants, and extremely out in the open political leaders in at that time I argue one of the most powerful nations in the world. They were hardly hiding or seemingly being deceptive.
I ultimately ask all of the questions I have as I play Leira as a deity of freedom in my Realms. Not a good or evil freedom deity, but one of absolute freedom. So much so, that her expression of complete self-determination runs afoul of the other deities who try to control their worshipers actions through dogma. Her teaching appear to be pretty straight forward: you do you without concern for "right", "wrong" or whatever.
I appreciate any and all input on this. Leira is one of my most favorite deities and I really think she is overlooked too often as an amazing deity in the Realms.
Best regards,
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| 4 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 30 Nov 2020 : 21:21:02
Learned Scribe Elfbane,
First off: thank you for the share on that link and other information.
I've read those from before (and somewhat recently again). Extremely good material for sure, and thanks for referring me to them had I not read those yet.
quote:
It will give you some info on how the Leiran wizards and priests more or less subverted the society into Matrix-like hell where is was hard to tell truth from fiction.
I am glad you mentioned those articles since I had read them, and then got to read your outlook on them as a "Matrix-like hell", which seems quite apropos. I play the faith of Leira as an ultimate freedom dogma where you can do exactly what was going on in Nimbral, but don't expect a bail out, etc. from the Lady of the Mist. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, play smart games, win smart prizes. :)
My ultimate curiosity is: was it the same in Halruaa before the Exodus of Leirans (or moving in that direction) as it was in Nimbral according to article VI of the Realm of Nimbral series, or did something change. Such an interesting faith!
Thank you again for the share!
Best regards,
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| ElfBane |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 19:44:48
Since you're doing Leira, here is some lore you may not have.
Go here, https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Nimbral
Scroll down to the Appendix and check the articles. Especially the "Realmslore" section. It's almost ALL of the lore on Nimbral that we have. Also, copy these articles to a Word document(or suitable substitute). These articles are part of the WotC archives, and may not be up very much longer.
Read all the articles. It will give you some info on how the Leiran wizards and priests more or less subverted the society into Matrix-like hell where is was hard to tell truth from fiction. This should give you plenty of info on how to build the Leira deity. You may have a hard time making her look Good... or even Neutral. But maybe True Neutral is doable. Have at it! |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 18:07:06
Learned Scribe ElfBane,
I hope your holiday went well!
quote:
#1 This is probably a “hole” in the lore. But its possible that these meetings have a gallery of non-voting spectators, similar to the viewing galleries we have in our own Congress.
Very likely you are correct. I was hoping that there was something else. I really think Leira is undersold in the Realms, unfortunately.
quote:
#2 Not much is out there about Garamond. GHotR has almost all the lore I am aware of.
I unfortunately was thinking the same thing, but thought I'd check with other scribes first.
quote:
#3 I get the impression that the Leirans were being discriminated against. The worshippers couldn’t have open churches… that sort of thing.
That is the same feeling I got. However, what struck me as odd is the fact that seemingly so, there were a reasonable amount of openly serving, and worshipping, Leirans. I get the impression that her faith were not always so forced into the shadows of society. I think something happened before the Exodus. I honestly think it was political. I have nothing to prove that, but the fact that they have a Congress-like/Pope electing body, I could see some serious stuff going down.
Imagine for a second some diviners getting with illusionists to recreate in programmed illusions, etc., certain Elders running for office again, but the programmed images show Steve the Evoker stealing, raping, etc. That would be pretty frickin' enormous, and I could totally see something like that going on. Medieval magical advertising for politics. haha
quote:
#4 See #1.
Yeah. Damn. I would love to know this. I mean, it seems like some seriously heavy stuff was going on at that time.
quote:
#5,6,7,8 Well, at the time Savras was imprisoned in the wand/scepter, right? The Leirans may have seen that as a portent.
Yeah, Savras had already been shoved into the wand. For sure they could have! It's kind of crazy that Savras gets shoved into a scepter, and the Leirans get self-exiled due to discrimination. It really does make me wonder what the hell was going on in Halruaa then.
quote:
#9 Illusion is, of necessity, deceptive. Lying is a tool of deception. Absolute freedom is, IMO, extremely selfish. I will watch your effort to turn Leira into a “no-Masker” with my box of popcorn within reach.
I get your point here, however, I posit to you this: assume for a moment that my hypothesis regarding the political ads actually happened, and that what they were portraying really happened with Steve the Evoker, etc., as a consequence of diviners working their magic. You could see the Savran and Leiran followers being pushed out due to something along those lines.
Though, in that case, and ironically so (again, assuming here), the truth is what would have led to the Leiran's and Savran's being treated so harshly. It's just very interesting.
Best regards,
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| ElfBane |
Posted - 28 Nov 2020 : 11:44:05
#1 This is probably a “hole” in the lore. But its possible that these meetings have a gallery of non-voting spectators, similar to the viewing galleries we have in our own Congress.
#2 Not much is out there about Garamond. GHotR has almost all the lore I am aware of.
#3 I get the impression that the Leirans were being discriminated against. The worshippers couldn’t have open churches… that sort of thing.
#4 See #1.
#5,6,7,8 Well, at the time Savras was imprisoned in the wand/scepter, right? The Leirans may have seen that as a portent.
#9 Illusion is, of necessity, deceptive. Lying is a tool of deception. Absolute freedom is, IMO, extremely selfish. I will watch your effort to turn Leira into a “no-Masker” with my box of popcorn within reach.
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