| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 02:05:33
Good evening,
I am looking to see if there is a list of all deities (by deities, I colloquially include primordials, immortals, etc.) that have ever existed in the Realms, for all pantheons, at all different times of the Realms as far as back as possible? Additionally, I am looking to see, if such a list exists, if it defines when that deity came to be, when the lived, and when they died.
Thank you in advance for any feedback.
Best regards,
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 15:09:19
Great Reader slevyas,
quote:
In the above, the question of freedom at the expense of others. This isn't anything necessarily evil, and may simply be a lack of conviction on the part of the dockworker or barmaid to change their options. Technically, those people aren't forced to stay in their station, but its obvious that some people may have an easier path to freedom. This is fairly true to any society.
Exactly! That is how I have it in my campaign. If you don't like where you are at, change it, i.e. change jobs, move, kill a lord of Nimbral. Whatever is needed.
quote:
On the "what is a hero"... exactly... too many people don't actually ask that question, and by default they're left with a "Disneyfied" view of heroism (which don't get me wrong... I love Disney stories... but I also like seeing stories like the witcher with what some folk might call an anti-hero). BTW, even Disney isn't confined to these hero stereotypes anymore, and I must say I loved the presentation of Maleficent a few years back.
Only because I've studied it a ton for the Realms, there are many examples of of "heroes" being pretty awful people in the Realms. That is of course, if you hold a certain view on things.
Best regards,
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 14:49:32
In the above, the question of freedom at the expense of others. I literally mean that people who have extreme freedom to do whatever they want often have to be supported by people who are handling the things that said person doesn't want to deal with, and those people may not have a choice in the matter. In the case of Nimbral, for instance, the Nimbral Lords and nobility have extremes of freedom. The dockworker or barmaid however has less choice in matters. This isn't anything necessarily evil, and may simply be a lack of conviction on the part of the dockworker or barmaid to change their options. Technically, those people aren't forced to stay in their station, but its obvious that some people may have an easier path to freedom. This is fairly true to any society.
On the "what is a hero"... exactly... too many people don't actually ask that question, and by default they're left with a "Disneyfied" view of heroism (which don't get me wrong... I love Disney stories... but I also like seeing stories like the witcher with what some folk might call an anti-hero). BTW, even Disney isn't confined to these hero stereotypes anymore, and I must say I loved the presentation of Maleficent a few years back.
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 04:13:13
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
Regarding the novel
The same novel where Cyric kills her off... forgive I can't remember the title its been so long. Maybe the trial of cyric?
Huh, I hate to say I don't recall either. I know that Waterdeep was released in October 1989 and Prince of Lies was released in August 1993. In looking at the release of novels between those two, I saw nothing that stands out.
quote:
On Leira serving Shar as a priestess then getting raised up I'd be real hesistant to do that. I understand the natural inclination to link the two because of similar goals. At the same time, that's exactly why I say keeping them separate. Leira shouldn't trust Shar, because Shar is not one who plays well with others.
I actually completely agree with the notion that Leira wouldn't trust Shar, and that is why I would think that it isn't an issue of being raised by Shar to become a deity, but rather, through actions. I present Leira as a deity of freedom in my Realms. Not of freedom predicated on any sort of morality, but rather, absolute freedom. I've posited that her observations, teachings, etc. with an understanding that being forced into one way of life, one dogma, one ethos, is a lie. There is more than that. The bad man can help a granny across the street, and the good man does bad things to children. The idea being that it isn't monolithic. That's how I've played her. I have that outlook, that dogma in her tell a deception when it suits you as opposed to the "truth" is that there is no truth: only self-determination. I have it that the Leiran faith are reviled by the deities of the Realms because such leeway, such freedom to choose, doesn't further the agenda of the very controlling deities. I also feel that comports with the leaving of the Leirans during their exodus from Halruaa.
I know this is all speculative of course. What are your thoughts on that?
quote:
Also, there's too many links to Selune rather than Shar. There COULD be some story though wherein Shar does something to another god which starts to create Leira in the hopes that she can claim the power of said god, but that somehow Selune steps in and stops it... ending up making Leira into her own personality separate from Shar and beholden to HER.
Perhaps the connection could be betraying Shar, to have it turn out be a betrayal of Selune too. I mean, how sweet that irony would be in pursuing her own dreams of freedom from anything the gods put out for consumption.
quote:
If anything weird, oddly, a link to Ubtao "the deceiver" might be interesting.
I do not dislike the idea. I am still just on the freedom train for Leira, haha. I kind of like the idea of Leira giving the middle finger to the gods.
quote:
Not as in they're the same being or anything, but possibly some kind of splitting (possibly even "mirrored" in Nimbral splitting from Chult). Possibly a child of his and Selune. The hints are that Ubtao is Qotal, and that "Ubtao" was a primordial who deceived the other primordials/dawn titans in order to aid the gods during the dawn wars. The stories also are that Qotal for some reason took his sister Kiltzi as a lover, and then there was a falling out and she goes to her brutish brother zaltec for protection. Qotal then left "the true world" to come to Chult essentially, supposedly out of shame. This is very much out of character for the type of personality we're presented overall for Qotal, so something happened with him that's murky and can be spun in some way to explain his actions. I'm not a big proponent of this, but I'm mulling it over, because there's some story there. Seethyr has done some work with it, involving Shar and Qotal, in a story format, and its possibly a good start.
I actually like this. I think you could even argue that when Leira was "dead", some of those glamers may have gone and somehow merged with one of those beings to come back. That's basically what I did with the a glamer, as a means to distribute her divine essence and increase the probabilities that she could return. Ironically, the glamer had to argue a good argument to convince the PC's to join her religion, without any sort of magic. It was great RP. :)
quote:
I can definitely agree that her followers are treated differently, and part of that is their own fault. I see Leirans as not trusting anyone, and as a result noone trusts them.
I can definitely see that. People wanting so much freedom, that they in fact distance themselves from the natural herding instinct, and by doing so, push everyone away.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/9781118900772.etrds0157
quote:
This is actually somewhat opposed by Mystra's "I'm the trustworthy source of magic" story, which is then not helped by the fact that sometimes magic is untrustworthy.
I think you make a very good point here. Magic isn't trustworthy. Not only could she take the disenfranchised of Shar and Selune from their never ending war, but she could also be a beacon of hope to those that may go to the Wall by giving them an option to merely follow her in the loosest sense, and by doing so, gain the most freedom after life.
quote:
Leirans also value personal freedom above all things it seems, which often means that others don't have those same freedoms (because no society works where everyone just does what they want).
By that statement do you mean that a Leiran's freedom pursued and attained is an acknowledgement of the lack of freedom by others, or rather, that the Leiran's are taking that freedom to implement their own?
quote:
While I like Nimbral and Leirans from a story tellers standpoint, I also look at them kind of like I look at red wizards.... I respect them, but I also wouldn't call them heroes.
Agreed, but with a caveat: what is a hero? From a cyrenaic hedonists ethic, it would be a person who says, "Screw it! I'm doing what I want, without worry for any consequences", while the Deontologist would say it is about the duty to act good, and in good ways (without again, shocking, defining what good is). "Heroes" as I've often seen it have an alignment of Neutral Whatever (Money/Fame) and hero is defined in the loosest senses.
quote:
That being said, I believe there are very few truly selfless heroes in the realms, despite what we're led to believe. Its just that some people get better press for it.
Oh, for sure. I agree 100%. Audie Murphy (one of the most decorated WWII soldiers) was an amazing soldier but was once booked for possible murder. So, he was a hero in war for sure, but then he possibly committed murder. I mean, it shows how it is kind of up in the air on definitions, perceptions, etc. https://www.nytimes.com/1970/05/29/archives/audie-murphy-is-held-on-complaint-of-fight.html#:~:text=BURBANK%2C%20Calif.%2C%20May%2028,18%20with%20a%20doe%20trainer.
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 13:40:48
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
To note though, somewhere in the novel series, Oghma notes that Leira has faked her death many times in the past.
Sorry, but which novel series were you referring to?
quote:
That makes me think that she's been around a very long time. My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.
I actually am of the mind that Leira is a daughter, or mayhaps a former high priestess of Shar from a long time ago.
quote:
BTW: I must admit to not seeing the value of Leira until after she was gone. I guess I can relat that back to being young. I was more upset at losing Bane and Myrkul, but they were soon replaced by Xvim and Velsharoon, and I found I liked them more (I know Velsharoon is not well loved by many, but I like him). But there's so much backstory plotting that you can use Leira for.... even when she's "dead".
I couldn't agree with you anymore. Leira has a considerable sized story arc in my current sandbox campaign. I actually have her as a god of freedom, but in the broadest sense possible.
I argue that she wants people to just live how they want to live, regardless of societies rules. Her people have time and again, seemingly, been slighted and treated poorly. Look at the Exodus of the Leirans from 173DR in Halruaa. It was all about politics from the look of it. The Leirans ultimately left, being treated as awful people. As they left, they were accused of lying and were told they likely were only leaving with one skyship. I argue that the (12) cities that exist in Nimbral are of the quote:
...more than a dozen skyships... (GHotR, p65)
that had quote:
...already left Halruaa in search of a new home where the followers of the Lady of Mists can govern themselves in peace. (GHotR, p65)
quote:
I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit.
Agreed. I sort of liked Cyric at first, but it turned out to be just, non-consistent in the presentation, as opposed to the idea they were trying to achieve I feel.
quote:
I much prefer the idea that Leira was absorbed by Mask and then reformed her energy much like Mask did.... to make an "avatar object".... and that avatar object was the Cyrinishad.... thus Leira ruined Cyric.
A fantastic idea. Plus, I just think she was way too smart when she had herself explode into small glamers that went everywhere. That is how I had her "come back" in my current campaign, when the party passed through a warded area and activated a rune that manifested a part of her that had to be weened back to existence in a way to get her "back to life" as it were. It's been quite fun.
Best regards,
Regarding the novel
The same novel where Cyric kills her off... forgive I can't remember the title its been so long. Maybe the trial of cyric?
On Leira serving Shar as a priestess then getting raised up
I'd be real hesistant to do that. I understand the natural inclination to link the two because of similar goals. At the same time, that's exactly why I say keeping them separate. Leira shouldn't trust Shar, because Shar is not one who plays well with others. Also, there's too many links to Selune rather than Shar. There COULD be some story though wherein Shar does something to another god which starts to create Leira in the hopes that she can claim the power of said god, but that somehow Selune steps in and stops it... ending up making Leira into her own personality separate from Shar and beholden to HER.
If anything weird, oddly, a link to Ubtao "the deceiver" might be interesting. Not as in they're the same being or anything, but possibly some kind of splitting (possibly even "mirrored" in Nimbral splitting from Chult). Possibly a child of his and Selune. The hints are that Ubtao is Qotal, and that "Ubtao" was a primordial who deceived the other primordials/dawn titans in order to aid the gods during the dawn wars. The stories also are that Qotal for some reason took his sister Kiltzi as a lover, and then there was a falling out and she goes to her brutish brother zaltec for protection. Qotal then left "the true world" to come to Chult essentially, supposedly out of shame. This is very much out of character for the type of personality we're presented overall for Qotal, so something happened with him that's murky and can be spun in some way to explain his actions. I'm not a big proponent of this, but I'm mulling it over, because there's some story there. Seethyr has done some work with it, involving Shar and Qotal, in a story format, and its possibly a good start.
On the followers of Leira being downtrodden
I can definitely agree that her followers are treated differently, and part of that is their own fault. I see Leirans as not trusting anyone, and as a result noone trusts them. This is actually somewhat opposed by Mystra's "I'm the trustworthy source of magic" story, which is then not helped by the fact that sometimes magic is untrustworthy. Leirans also value personal freedom above all things it seems, which often means that others don't have those same freedoms (because no society works where everyone just does what they want). While I like Nimbral and Leirans from a story tellers standpoint, I also look at them kind of like I look at red wizards.... I respect them, but I also wouldn't call them heroes. That being said, I believe there are very few truly selfless heroes in the realms, despite what we're led to believe. Its just that some people get better press for it.
Oh, and I'm glad you like my idea of Leira becoming the Cyrinishad and infecting Cyric. People tend to be polarized on the idea. Either they love it or hate it. I've actually got it in my head that Leira and Savras (along with Mask and Lathander) working against Shar since before the ToT, possibly because the gods had some foreknowledge that mortals just don't know about. Velsharoon was brought in on these plans as well, but he wasn't fully trusted. If this seems an odd dichotomy of gods to be working together, you're right (i.e. a god of divining the truth working with a goddess of lies.... a god of stealth and shadows working in the same group as a god of the dawn and sunlight), but we've seen all these gods as not necessarily trusting Shar. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 01:31:19
Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
To note though, somewhere in the novel series, Oghma notes that Leira has faked her death many times in the past.
Sorry, but which novel series were you referring to?
quote:
That makes me think that she's been around a very long time. My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.
I actually am of the mind that Leira is a daughter, or mayhaps a former high priestess of Shar from a long time ago.
quote:
BTW: I must admit to not seeing the value of Leira until after she was gone. I guess I can relat that back to being young. I was more upset at losing Bane and Myrkul, but they were soon replaced by Xvim and Velsharoon, and I found I liked them more (I know Velsharoon is not well loved by many, but I like him). But there's so much backstory plotting that you can use Leira for.... even when she's "dead".
I couldn't agree with you anymore. Leira has a considerable sized story arc in my current sandbox campaign. I actually have her as a god of freedom, but in the broadest sense possible.
I argue that she wants people to just live how they want to live, regardless of societies rules. Her people have time and again, seemingly, been slighted and treated poorly. Look at the Exodus of the Leirans from 173DR in Halruaa. It was all about politics from the look of it. The Leirans ultimately left, being treated as awful people. As they left, they were accused of lying and were told they likely were only leaving with one skyship. I argue that the (12) cities that exist in Nimbral are of the quote:
...more than a dozen skyships... (GHotR, p65)
that had quote:
...already left Halruaa in search of a new home where the followers of the Lady of Mists can govern themselves in peace. (GHotR, p65)
quote:
I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit.
Agreed. I sort of liked Cyric at first, but it turned out to be just, non-consistent in the presentation, as opposed to the idea they were trying to achieve I feel.
quote:
I much prefer the idea that Leira was absorbed by Mask and then reformed her energy much like Mask did.... to make an "avatar object".... and that avatar object was the Cyrinishad.... thus Leira ruined Cyric.
A fantastic idea. Plus, I just think she was way too smart when she had herself explode into small glamers that went everywhere. That is how I had her "come back" in my current campaign, when the party passed through a warded area and activated a rune that manifested a part of her that had to be weened back to existence in a way to get her "back to life" as it were. It's been quite fun.
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 00:13:16
Agree on the whole Cyric sucks statements. I never liked him that I can recall. Almost immediately I started a "bring back Bane and Myrkul" campaign on the prodigy forums I was on (yep.... remember prodigy? Even before America Online... damn that was a long time ago). Then they started bringing out Xvim and I started seeing other possibilities. I just couldn't buy into the idea that those clergies would just readily convert to a new god. That being said, he WAS giving out power in the names of the other gods for a while (i.e. canonically, he was supposedly using the aliases of Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Leira).
Regarding Mystra/Midnight, Ayrik brings up a very cogent point, and its something I've wondered about. They specifically point out that Midnight was setup to be an avatar before the gods descended. One thing I've wondered about was whether Midnight actually was BORN or was she CREATED and instilled with memories (essentially like the Alias clone which had at least one god <Moander> involved..... and possibly a second goddess if you believe that the being known as Phalse, which was a beholder like creature with mouths for eyes, was actually Leira.... the fact that Midnight was also canonically known to have a truename of A-R-I-E-L .... a reverse of L-E-I-R-A... also makes me wonder if Phalse was Leira, and that the making of Alias clones had other goals than what we know. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 23:57:58
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My understanding is that Ruathlek exists only as a written magical language. Impossible for non-illusionists to properly comprehend.
1E rules provided magic-user and illusionist classes, along with read magic and write magic spells for scribbling spell formulae and stuff. They each could not decipher the other magical writing system. Although thieves/assassins/acrobats/bards using read languages had a chance of casting (and a chance of miscasting) any written magic they encountered, without needing actual comprehension of the magical workings.
2E rules implicitly retained Ruathlek's distinction for illusionists. It also introduced other magical encoding systems (like those used by Red Wizards, elementalists, and shadowmages) to separate other wizard specialists/groups/schools/philosophies.
The spoken forms of these languages were explained to be the actual language of magic. The same language which included power words and truenames, speaking these words actually cast the magics, they were taxing on the wizard, required hours of memorization (and mastery of levels) to utter properly. Misspeaking them might have dire consequences. The mystical language of raw, pure magic was certainly impossible to use for normal, casual conversation.
But evidently this might have been changed in 3E.
Same understanding here, which is why I noted this odd statement. That being said, things (as far as rules) have obviously changed, so rather than throwing the concept of ruathlek out entirely.... I can buy that it was "a language made up by illusionists and became intrinsic to the island filled with them". I can even buy that it came in from another crystal sphere or something and that Leira is taking credit for "creating it". Either way, its seemingly a "we don't use common for everything" place at least as of 5e. Then again, this might be a change as a result of WHEREVER (I assume Abeir, but...) the Nimbraii went to after the spellplague. Perhaps they started speaking in ruathlek as a means to encrypt their communications from anyone magically spying on them (its not perfect, someone can use magic to decipher it in theory..... unless there's some magic to it to prevent that since it IS a illusionists language). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 16:51:37
Well, I don't mind who was ascended, rather that Cyric, a nobody, unknown to the wider world, went straight to "greater deity" from the start. Which isn't only illogical from an in-universe perspective (how a totally unknown guy became a wide known deity in 5 minutes?) but also speaks a lot of the author and his mary sue-ness issue.
Midnight at least was using Mystra's name, so that people knew her and she remained greater deity makes more sense than just "hey, I'm Cyric, new god in town. I'm now Greater Deity cuz reasons". |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 16:48:18
Having read the avatar novels recently I have to agree with zeromaru x's interpretation.
He was almost a good guy in the first novel, apart from murdering people that got in his way or threatened his friends.
In the second novel he had a complete personality change which was a shame because he was much more interesting in the first novel. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 15:48:37
Cyric wasn't just "an utter nobody". He was a particularly unlikeable, snivelling, cowardly, selfish, untrustworthy, treacherous nobody. A scummy little thief and opportunist, a common street criminal with low talent and ambition, and he was not even very accomplished at any of that. Unworthy in the eyes of most mortals, let alone in the eyes of gods and overgods.
Midnight wasn't particularly special either. Not in terms of word and deed, not in heroic conduct or merit, not in background or status. Although she had apparently been pre-selected (perhaps even bred and groomed) for the position by Mystra herself. So at least she had some "predestined" divine nepotism working for her, marking her as a "worthy" candidate for ascension to godhood.
Both of them were just at the right place at the right time. Ao's a busy being, no time to waste on little worldly concerns, he just promoted the nearest two mortals available for the position. It might be argued that Ao "designed" this plan and its outcome from the outset, but that doesn't really change the character of the characters themselves, they both behaved rather poorly (and incompetently) after their divine ascensions. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 15:08:22
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the "Cyric as Loki" thing, its somewhat subtle, and you mainly start to see it from the novels. I saw it mostly at the ending of the trial of Cyric series, but then it continued. Eventually they even had him "getting locked away by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune" for his actions that threatened the world..... kind of like being Loki being locked away by the gods Tyr, Frey, and Freya (technically we don't know who all locked away Loki, as the stories vary, but they hang a great snake above his head). I prefer to think of this time when Cyric was supposedly locked away as the time he was being absorbed by Leira the snake-tongued, while she was active in Abeir and needed a "body" to return to on this side. In essence, I view the spellplague as Ao's method of introducing gods to Abeir (which I know some will hate, but hey, if it was only the ones that disappeared, its a start).
The only vibe I got from the novels, is that Cyric was this "not-evil, just an angsty, darkz and kweel anti-hero" that got all the cool stuff because reasons (such as Mask's sword), and in the nd he ascended to godhood with... how many portfolios? And to greater god status right from the start, even when he was an utterly nobody a few hours before that, and wasn't even using the name of one of the gods he replaced.
The only other character who got to ascend was the girl, with just one portfolio (albeit an important one, of course), and the other two characters got chafed (one killed, the other only got to be the cleric of Mystra, lol).
If that is not an allegory of a DM dotting his PC with all the cool stuff, while trying to impress the girl playing in the group... well, I don't know what else it is.
And yeah, I know Kelemvor eventually resurfaced, but that was in another novel series. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 15:07:13
My understanding is that Ruathlek exists only as a written magical language. Impossible for non-illusionists to properly comprehend.
1E rules provided magic-user and illusionist classes, along with read magic and write magic spells for scribbling spell formulae and stuff. They each could not decipher the other magical writing system. Although thieves/assassins/acrobats/bards using read languages had a chance of casting (and a chance of miscasting) any written magic they encountered, without needing actual comprehension of the magical workings.
2E rules implicitly retained Ruathlek's distinction for illusionists. It also introduced other magical encoding systems (like those used by Red Wizards, elementalists, and shadowmages) to separate other wizard specialists/groups/schools/philosophies.
The spoken forms of these languages were explained to be the actual language of magic. The same language which included power words and truenames, speaking these words actually cast the magics, they were taxing on the wizard, required hours of memorization (and mastery of levels) to utter properly. Misspeaking them might have dire consequences. The mystical language of raw, pure magic was certainly impossible to use for normal, casual conversation.
But evidently this might have been changed in 3E. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 14:42:17
Yeah, I like to twist this idea from the SCAG
Leira has worn many masks, and more than once has been thought to be dead or to be another deity altogether. Perhaps such a reputation is only natural for the goddess of illusion and deception. Her faithful agree that whatever the "truth" might be, their Lady takes great delight in the confusion sown by her various incarnations. Even the faithful of Cyric once taught that their god killed Leira, but now they espouse the strange idea that somehow she is his daughter.
So... is his daughter... "she was born from him".... "she was reborn through him"... "she grew inside him and took him over"...
Hmmm, and I did just notice something in rereading the SCAG... just an interesting "factoid" on languages... She is credited with inventing Ruathlek, the language of illusionists and the spoken tongue of Nimbral...... so the people in Nimbral supposedly speak in ruathlek.... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 14:18:00
1E and 2E described Leira's portfolio as "illusion, deception".
3E described it as "illusions, trickery, charms, lies".
5E describes it as "illusions, deceptions, trickery, lies".
Cyric's portfolio had "deception, lies" added mid-2E, and I don't think these components have been changed or removed in later editions.
Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but "lies" and "deceptions" are not the same thing. They overlap enough to often be interchangeable but they are also different enough concepts for their godly metaphorical portfolios to manifest in vastly different ways. Deception is about confusing true and false things; making it impossible to know what is true and what is untrue. Lies are about avoiding, twisting, or obscuring truth; making something untrue appear (and effectively become) true.
Leira's power is about deception. Obscuring or confusing true things with false appearances. Manipulating perceptions.
Cyric's power is about lies. Concealing or ignoring true things with false words. Manipulating understandings.
Other deities also seem to overlap a little into this: Shar's power includes forgetfulness (erasing truths with oblivion), Talona's power includes "poisoning truths until they sicken and die", Mask has evolved through various forms of "intrigue" and "deception" of different kinds. (Not to mention Mask's dominion over "shadows" which are vaguely entangled within many illusion magics.)
And of course many deities offer a variety of solipsisms and miracles which are effectively untrue (unreal, don't exist) unless you deliberately, actively, consciously believe them to be true (which provides faith to magically give them very real substance and effect).
To me there's a distinct difference. I would treat "lies" as a specialized subset of "deceptions" in a way analogous to treating "illusions" as a specialized subset of "magic". But the opposite symmetry also applies ... many illusions don't involve magic, and "illusions" are also a broader category of interests than "magic" encompasses ... just as many lies don't involve deception, and "lies" are also a broader category of interests than "deception" encompasses. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 13:58:23
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.
That if we believe the tale the Netherese told us is true. There have been more ancient magical civilizations before Netheril, which means Mystryl was an "evolution" of a more reptilian/amphibian deity somewhere... Leira must have evolved that way. Or she is just an ascended mortal from those old times.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit.
And here I was, believing Cyric was an allegory to the DMPC trope...
On the Mystryl/Selune/Shar "story" AND the "coming from an earlier religion".. yes, I agree. They're all three coming from an earlier god and took on a name for humans. I also hold that probably something happened that split up the power of these beings. I would almost try to link it to Shekinester, but its "too hard to fit". I feel its very much related to the tearfall however and the destruction of a moon that used to be in the sky.
On the "Cyric as Loki" thing, its somewhat subtle, and you mainly start to see it from the novels. I saw it mostly at the ending of the trial of Cyric series, but then it continued. Eventually they even had him "getting locked away by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune" for his actions that threatened the world..... kind of like being Loki being locked away by the gods Tyr, Frey, and Freya (technically we don't know who all locked away Loki, as the stories vary, but they hang a great snake above his head). I prefer to think of this time when Cyric was supposedly locked away as the time he was being absorbed by Leira the snake-tongued, while she was active in Abeir and needed a "body" to return to on this side. In essence, I view the spellplague as Ao's method of introducing gods to Abeir (which I know some will hate, but hey, if it was only the ones that disappeared, its a start). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 13:31:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
In 1E and 2E logic, illusion is a specialized subset of magic. So Leira could have once been an aspect of Mystra. Or could be a mortal (like Azuth once was) who was ascended through part of Mystra's power and portfolio. And either way could have grown or diverged since her inception to become a goddess of some greater stature.
And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?
(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?)
I can both appreciate and also not appreciate that concept. So, Mystra is "magic for magic's sake". It doesn't matter HOW its used. So, in some respects, she has to be somewhat neutral on things. The thing is though that these deities who are also "subsets of magic" deities need to be more than just a school of magic. They're NOT just Mystra's servants, and arguably, they can do things that piss off Mystra.
In the case of Leira, we very much see this IF she has the portfolio of lies. A lot of people don't even see her as reporting to Mystra in the earlier stuff because illusionists were "separate". Now, the question is "does she still have the portfolio of lies", and many would say "No, Cyric is listed as having that portfolio in the SCAG". So, officially, she's not back the same as she was before because they don't want to get rid of Cyric. That's where the concepts that I've put forth of Leira being "the Cyrinishad" and infecting Cyric with herself, and deluding him, come into play. She's in essence slowly absorbing him like a snake swallowing a mouse, while it lies there helpless and its venom drives it mad.
This is also why I'd like for the other gods of magic to have more than one master. For instance, I see Deneir as a god of magic. I would like for him to serve Mystra as a god of symbols, spellbooks, and scroll magics. But I'd also like him to still serve Oghma as well. This makes greater gods a little more wary of abusing their "servitor gods", because they aren't pigeonholed as only able to serve one god. In a similar method, I'd like to see other deities like the Red Knight as a goddess of spell strategy and tactics. Siamorphe could be a goddess of sorcerers and the responsibilities of being born with natural power. Also similarly, perhaps gods like Velsharoon may take on other subsets of magic (for instance, I could see him being involved with summoning magic as well), or may even do things like offer pacts for warlocks. Auppenser, if he isn't Sardior, may ally with Sardior. Savras becomes harder to place as working with another deity, and I actually see Azuth in a servitor role only to Mystra. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 04:37:45
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?
(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?)
And I thought here people liked to have zillions and zillions of gods, even if they had redundant or useless functions... that's why I'm very happy with 4e reduced list of gods. If I ever need a new god, I just add it. But I don't have to deal with ridiculous deities such as the goddesses of bathrooms from Kara-Tur...
But, I guess this depends on the culture? Perhaps for the Netherese, or some culture post-Netheril, having deities for each section of the day was really important. We know that the current Faerūnian religion is a fusion of many religions that somehow got lumped together after the Dawn Cataclysm.
I like most of the other deities, I just don't see a need for having a "deity of this smaller aspect of the thing this other deity covers!"
And for the sun deities -- dawn has a lot of symbolic meaning, so it makes sense to have it covered by someone. Noon or dusk? Not so much. Actually it would make more sense to have one deity of the sun, covering all times of the day -- but if you're going to subdivide it, dawn is the obvious choice. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 03:59:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?
(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?)
And I thought here people liked to have zillions and zillions of gods, even if they had redundant or useless functions... that's why I'm very happy with 4e reduced list of gods. If I ever need a new god, I just add it. But I don't have to deal with ridiculous deities such as the goddesses of bathrooms from Kara-Tur...
But, I guess this depends on the culture? Perhaps for the Netherese, or some culture post-Netheril, having deities for each section of the day was really important. We know that the current Faerūnian religion is a fusion of many religions that somehow got lumped together after the Dawn Cataclysm. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 03:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.
That if we believe the tale the Netherese told us is true. There have been more ancient magical civilizations before Netheril, which means Mystryl was an "evolution" of a more reptilian/amphibian deity somewhere... Leira must have evolved that way. Or she is just an ascended mortal from those old times.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit.
And here I was, believing Cyric was an allegory to the DMPC trope... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 02:48:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
In 1E and 2E logic, illusion is a specialized subset of magic. So Leira could have once been an aspect of Mystra. Or could be a mortal (like Azuth once was) who was ascended through part of Mystra's power and portfolio. And either way could have grown or diverged since her inception to become a goddess of some greater stature.
And that's part of why I was never a fan of Leira: I don't see a need for deities of subsets of magic... Especially when it's only a few of the subsets that get them. Why not a deity of evocation? Why not a deity of summoning?
(This is also part of why I've never liked the tripartite sun deity idea: why three deities for different parts of the day? Are noon and dusk really worth having a deity for?) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 02:30:12
In 1E and 2E logic, illusion is a specialized subset of magic. So Leira could have once been an aspect of Mystra. Or could be a mortal (like Azuth once was) who was ascended through part of Mystra's power and portfolio. And either way could have grown or diverged since her inception to become a goddess of some greater stature. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 01:18:20
As far as I know, there's never been any hint to when Leira came about. To note though, somewhere in the novel series, Oghma notes that Leira has faked her death many times in the past. That makes me think that she's been around a very long time. My PERSONAL take is that she has been around as long as Mystryl. There may have actually have been two daughters born of Selune and Shar at that time, but only one gets notoriety. But that's all speculation.
BTW: I must admit to not seeing the value of Leira until after she was gone. I guess I can relat that back to being young. I was more upset at losing Bane and Myrkul, but they were soon replaced by Xvim and Velsharoon, and I found I liked them more (I know Velsharoon is not well loved by many, but I like him). But there's so much backstory plotting that you can use Leira for.... even when she's "dead". I know they tried to spin Cyric as basically Loki reincarnated to a degree, but it never quite fit. I much prefer the idea that Leira was absorbed by Mask and then reformed her energy much like Mask did.... to make an "avatar object".... and that avatar object was the Cyrinishad.... thus Leira ruined Cyric. I also like the idea that she replayed this idea of "becoming a book" in order to serve her goddess/sister.... and she became "the tome of Fastrin the Delver" just a few years AFTER the Cyrinishad debacle and before the spellplague. Thus, she arranged to get herself in the hands of Szass Tam so that she could trick him into casting a spell to draw on the Athora and revitalize Mystra in her time of need. To note, there's at least one novel story that notes that Tam isn't favored by the goddess of illusion.... so there were at least 2 gods of magic that didn't like him (Velsharoon... the god of the school Tam specialized in... specifically hated Tam). That all really makes me think that when Larloch gave Tam a cursed magic item that makes him change his essential nature to be more "evil".... maybe THAT was all part of a plan of the gods as well. Not saying that they all knew exactly what to do, but they did have a god of divination on their side, and maybe he could tell them key things that needed to happen. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 23:28:37
Master Rupert,
I appreciate that. I will super focus on Great Reader sleyvas then! :)
quote:
Sleyvas brought her up.
Great Reader sleyvas, apparently you are the contemplative overlord of all things Leiran (per the exact quote of Master Rupert: just look!). Do you have any further insight you might be willing to share?
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 23:06:06
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
It is ironic that you mention Leira, as that is the deity at the center of what I seek. As far as I know, the earliest known entry about her is from 173DR, during the Exodus of the Leirans. I was hoping there may be more about her earlier years.
I have theories that I use in my campaigns, but nothing predicated on dictated lore.
Best regards,
Sleyvas brought her up. He's a big fan of hers. I would expect him to be far more familiar with her and her lore than I.
I came aboard with the Time of Troubles, so Leira was mostly out of the picture when I started getting into the setting, and she's never been of particular interest to me. I'm more intrigued by one of her most notable followers, the Mistmaster, but even he doesn't rank highly on my list of favorite NPCs of the Realms. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 20:41:58
Master Rupert,
It is ironic that you mention Leira, as that is the deity at the center of what I seek. As far as I know, the earliest known entry about her is from 173DR, during the Exodus of the Leirans. I was hoping there may be more about her earlier years.
I have theories that I use in my campaigns, but nothing predicated on dictated lore.
Best regards,
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 19:15:13
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of the dead ones we don't have anything approaching a date for. At best, we can assign a fairly tight range for some, like Leira
Man, she still has you guys fooled... damn she's a good liar 
She's got you thoroughly fooled, that's for certain.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 18:07:20
I always confused Leira and Lliira. As did my players. Enough to "break canon" and just treat them as two avatars of one goddess with a combined portfolio, lol.
That being the case, Leira/Lliira in "my Realms" may have vanished, but never perished. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 17:08:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of the dead ones we don't have anything approaching a date for. At best, we can assign a fairly tight range for some, like Leira
Man, she still has you guys fooled... damn she's a good liar |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 16:15:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The 2E Arcane Ages stuff specifies which deities did exist (and did not exist) in ancient Netheril.
And there was a prior discussion about this, where one of the viewpoints was that this list only applied to Netheril, and not to the wider Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There are known dates (or years) for the arrival of some deities - like Tyr, like Tymora/Beshaba (from Tyche), etc. Mostly in 3E lore, I think.
The Tyche/Tymora/Beshaba thing is really problematic, from a time frame perspective, in my opinion.
Ed recently dropped a tidbit indicating that the Dawn Cataclysm happened during Mystryl's time. Given that none of the lore on Netheril mentions this, my assumption is that this means the Dawn Cataclysm predated Netheril.
From the 3E FRCS, we know that the church of Tyche split into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba during the 700s DR -- more than a thousand years after the death of Mystryl and the fall of Netheril.
But we also know that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during (but not necessarily because of) the Dawn Cataclysm.
So either Tyche's church stayed together despite the split for a thousand years, bare minimum, and likely much longer -- or what we know about their split is incorrect. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 15:04:36
The 2E Arcane Ages stuff specifies which deities did exist (and did not exist) in ancient Netheril.
The racial archetype deities - Corellon, Moradin, Lolth, Gruumsh, Asgorath/Bahamut/Tiamat, and all the rest - are almost surely present wherever their peoples are present.
There are known dates (or years) for the arrival of some deities - like Tyr, like Tymora/Beshaba (from Tyche), etc. Mostly in 3E lore, I think.
The origins of the eldest known deities - Mystril/Mystra, Selune, Chauntea, Shar, etc - are framed as mythology, not history.
Some deities in the Realms - like the Fenris, Dendar, etc - originated in foreign mythologies, often "older" mythologies which place their origins at times predating the Realms entirely. But they're generally not well defined in Realmslore and their arrival dates in the Realms are usually unspecified. |
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