| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| oldeguard |
Posted - 11 Jun 2017 : 21:02:00
I noticed that several of the gods were glossed over during the Time of Troubles. I understand several were in deep slumber, or exile, or dead at the time, but I would like to find a compiled list stating where each emerged in the world, and specifically what Jergel was doing at this time. |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 05:46:40
Great Reader Ayrik,
Well, that quote of mine was 2nd edition, Faiths and Avatars.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
It seems Jergal was serving in that "Seneschal" role a few years before those novels DR years.
It does seem that way.
The Avatar Crisis was engineered to narrate the transition from 1E to 2E. Mystra's death basically explained why the rules of magic changed, Cyric replacing the Dead Three explained why old assassin and "necromancer" classes were gone, etc).
The 3E source you quote was written long afterwards. Not a rewrite, more a retroactive affirmation and expansion, providing richer lore which was previously absent. Perfectly valid and canonical - but it was also written to explain things as they fit within the perspective and context of then-current 3E lore (with a defrocked Cyric, an ascended Kelemvor, and the Dead Three back from the dead again).
Jergal didn't even exist in 1E. He wasn't even introduced into Realmslore until late 2E material some years later (his appearance in the post-Avatar Cyric novels, his description in Arcane Ages material for the ancient Netheril setting).
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 03:58:05
quote:
It seems Jergal was serving in that "Seneschal" role a few years before those novels DR years.
It does seem that way.
The Avatar Crisis was engineered to narrate the transition from 1E to 2E. Mystra's death basically explained why the rules of magic changed, Cyric replacing the Dead Three explained why old assassin and "necromancer" classes were gone, etc).
The 3E source you quote was written long afterwards. Not a rewrite, more a retroactive affirmation and expansion, providing richer lore which was previously absent. Perfectly valid and canonical - but it was also written to explain things as they fit within the perspective and context of then-current 3E lore (with a defrocked Cyric, an ascended Kelemvor, and the Dead Three back from the dead again).
Jergal didn't even exist in 1E. He wasn't even introduced into Realmslore until late 2E material some years later (his appearance in the post-Avatar Cyric novels, his description in Arcane Ages material for the ancient Netheril setting). |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 03:45:31
Great Reader Ayrik,
Yeah, that makes sense regarding his form and all that. Though, when the Dead Three confronted Jergal well before the ToT, it was said by Jergal,
quote:
The Throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the
position. But before the stunned trio could react, the Lord of the Dead continued, Who among you shall rule? (Faiths & Avatars, 1996, p.37)
It seems Jergal was serving in that "Seneschal" role a few years before those novels DR years.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
We do know that Jergal wasn't doing his job on the Fugue during the Avatar Crisis. The place filled up with souls unable to move on.
Jergal's avatar would be his unnerving alien insect species, not likely to be recognized as anything but a monster to most people. While those who would recognize Jergal would know him to be a servant of Myrkul, not a very popular god during the crisis.
Jergal served a "Seneschal" role on the Fugue in the subsequent two novels. Directly subordinate to Cyric's whims, yet also ignored and uninvolved in Cyric's mad machinations.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 02:45:01
We do know that Jergal wasn't doing his job on the Fugue during the Avatar Crisis. The place filled up with souls unable to move on.
Jergal's avatar would be his unnerving alien insect species, not likely to be recognized as anything but a monster to most people. While those who would recognize Jergal would know him to be a servant of Myrkul, not a very popular god during the crisis.
Jergal served a "Seneschal" role on the Fugue in the subsequent two novels. Directly subordinate to Cyric's whims, yet also ignored and uninvolved in Cyric's mad machinations. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 23:40:36
Acolyte oldeguard,
I believe at this time Jergal was a Seneschal in the City of the Dead. Though, I could have swore he was a demi-god during that time, so it is odd (assuming I am correct) that he wasn't kicked out as well.
Anyone else know if that is accurate?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by oldeguard
I noticed that several of the gods were glossed over during the Time of Troubles. I understand several were in deep slumber, or exile, or dead at the time, but I would like to find a compiled list stating where each emerged in the world, and specifically what Jergel was doing at this time.
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| Misereor |
Posted - 21 Jun 2017 : 09:59:12
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Still no mention of Tyr.
I made him a wanderer, reminiscent of the cult classic "Blind Fury".
Contemplating his failings, kicking ass, and making discoveries that fit a god who tries being mortal.
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| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 20 Jun 2017 : 15:14:02
Still no mention of Tyr. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 01:37:35
Dragons of Faerun only mentions Tiamat and Bahamut (not the whereabouts of the other dragon gods). Tom already covered Tiamat, and Bahamut was unable to enter the realms since Marduk's death, so he was wandering the Outer Planes (so, he is one of those gods who weren't throw off from the Astral), |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 14 Jun 2017 : 00:34:52
Thanks Phillip. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Jun 2017 : 15:18:37
Another addition. They did eventually make at least one of the elemental lords location known. Kossuth. This does add some interesting pieces to the puzzle since some people (including me until I saw this) thought maybe the elemental lords had some special deal with Ao (then there were assumptions that "because they were primordials they didn't get cast down", but this lore actually superseded the concept of primordials). I do find it interesting that Kossuth was cast down in an area where another primordial existed (i.e. Ubtao), but not sure what to do with that ... if anything.
From Serpent Kingdoms page 37
During the Time of Troubles, Kossuth appeared in the Burning Rift beneath the Peaks of Flame and chose a firenewt
blackguard named Chassan, overlord of a local tribe, as his avatar. Kossuth/Chassan led the firenewts into a brutal war
with the pterafolk of the Chultengar, and the conflict lasted until the Avatar Crisis had ended. Kossuth returned to the
planes, leaving the charred corpse of Chassan in his wake, but the god later rewarded Chassan's loyalty by allowing him to
return to his tribe as a deathflame (a version of a death knight; see Chassan, below). Chassan, who still leads the Ack'ta tribe by the Flamelord's decree, is one of the few firenewt overlords who also holds, sway over the clerics of Kossuth. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2017 : 04:05:34
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I couldn't find the article I wrote for the WotC website, but here it is from way back when. There may have been a few nuggets since it was first published, but I don't think many, if any....
I have the copy I made when it was first posted on the Wizards site... But I just made a copy from this post, too.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2017 : 04:03:33
Pretty sure all the gods were thrown down, regardless of pantheon, with the exception of Helm. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 13 Jun 2017 : 02:24:57
Wow Tom, thanks for sharing that!
Another possibly controversial thing to come out of the Lore You Should Know podcast lately (the one about the cosmos) was that not all the gods were thrown down in the ToT. Gruumsh is singled out as an example. They talk about how it was "mainly the human pantheon", with a few exceptions. They don't really go into it in any more detail, but funnily enough they also theorize that the Celestial Bureaucracy "might" operate under a different overgod than Ao...
As usual with LYSK stuff, I wouldn't take any of it as canon until it's actually published in print. But they're interesting points to think about, if a bit controversial! |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 13 Jun 2017 : 01:45:56
Wow, nice work! |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 13 Jun 2017 : 01:20:54
I couldn't find the article I wrote for the WotC website, but here it is from way back when. There may have been a few nuggets since it was first published, but I don't think many, if any....
The Avatar Trilogy:
The Gods Walk Toril
By Thomas M. Costa
1358 DR, the Year of Shadows and the Time of Troubles, also known as the Godswar and the Avatar Crisis, when gods walked Toril, was the most destructive and disruptive time in Faerūns recent history. While the Avatar Trilogy (Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep) follows the quest of four mortal heroes and involves a handful of Faerūns gods directly, the power of a god tends to get noticed, and other Forgotten Realms novels and game supplements have revealed the goings-on of many other powers. Some of these gods died and are slowly becoming only memories among the folks of the Realms, others wreaked havoc, and others served as godly shields against their fellow powers and magic gone awry.
[Julia, I have avoided obvious citations from obvious sources, notably the Avatar Trilogy and three 2E game modules of the same name, the hardcover 2E Forgotten Realms Adventures, and three 2E godbooks. No new information was provided in Faiths and Avatars or other 3E products (with the exception of some clarifications in FRCS) that I found.]
Faerūnian Pantheon
The Faerūnian pantheon was the most closely involved in the Time of Troubles, with its members directly responsible for the events leading up to and ending the crisis.
Ao: Elminster's Safehold, Mt. Waterdeep (Cloak of Shadows, Waterdeep)
Azuth: Pool of Yeven (FRE2)
Bane: Zhentil Keep, Castle Kilgrave, Shadowdale, Scardale, Tantras (FRE1,2; Av. Tril.)
Bhaal: Eveningstar, High Horn, Boareskyr Bridge (FRE2, Av. Tril.)
Eldath: The Misty Forest (Cloak of Shadows)
Garagos: Garagos rampaged through Westgates harbor before wading out into the Sea of Fallen Stars, leaving a blood-red harbor in his wake.
Gond: The Wonderbringer fell to Toril as a gnome on the shores of Lantan. In gratitude for the sanctuary, he taught the Lantanese the secrets of smokepowder.
Gwaeron Windstrom: the North (P&P)
Helm: The Vigilant One was the only god to not loose his divine power and was charged with guarding the Nexus of the Planes, a portal that leads to the otherworldly domains of the gods, from his brethren.
Hoar: Hoar stalked the Old Empires, appearing in Akanax, Thay, and Unther, where he slew Ramman, Untheric god of war, but lost his foes portfolio to Anhur, Mulhorandi god of war.
Ibrandul: Ibrandul, god of caverns, was slain in the Underdark beneath Waterdeep by Shar in secret and his portfolio stolen.
Iyachtu Xvim: The avatar of the godling Iyachtu Xvim, half-demon offspring of Bane, was imprisoned under Zhentil Keep.
Jergal: Unknown ("Played no part in the Time of Troubles" P&P)
Lliira: Shadowdale, Cormanthor (F&A (under Waukeen))
Malar: Malar battled Nobanion in the Gulthmere Forest before fleeing to the North where he was hunted by Gwaeron Windstrom.
Mask: Disguised as Godsbane, Cyric's sword; Cormyr to Waterdeep (Prince of Lies)
Mielikki: The Misty Forest (Cloak of Shadows)
Milil: Athkatla (F&A)
Moander: Never specifically revealed, but presumably the Lost Vale (Song of the Saurials) (see Note 3)
Myrkul: Waterdeep (FRE3)
Mystra: Castle Kilgrave (FRE1)
Nobanion: Gulthmere Forest, Shining Plains (P&P)
Red Knight: The Red Knight appeared in northeastern Tethyr, helping that nation defeat monsters raiding from the Wealdath.
Savras: Imprisoned in the Scepter of Savras (P&P)
Selūne: Shar and Selūne fought another round of their age-old battle as mortals in Waterdeep.
Shar: Shar and Selūne fought another round of their age-old battle as mortals in Waterdeep. Shar also secretly slew Ibrandul, god of caverns, in the Underdark beneath Waterdeep and stole his portfolio.
Sharess: Sharess took the form of the favorite concubine of the pasha of Calimport and was liberated from the growing influence of Shar by Sune.
Shaundakul: Shaundakul roamed the ruins of Myth Drannor, where he battled and destroyed the avatar of a minor orc deity.
Shiallia: the North (P&P)
Siamorphe: Waterdeep (P&P)
Silvanus: Winterwood and Chondalwood (F&A)
Sseth: Black Jungles, Chult (P&P)
Sune: Calimport, Teziir (P&P (under Sharess), Waterdeep)
Talona: Castle Trinity (Canticle)
Talos: Tsurlagol (Waterdeep)
Tempus: Tempus arrived in the shell of a shattered castle in Battledale, before moving on to the battlefield of Swords Creek in Mistledale.
Torm: Tantras (FRE2)
Tymora: Tymora appeared at her temple in Arabel, Cormyr, and it is thought her presence there spared the city much destruction.
Ubtao: Chult (P&P)
Ulutiu: Asleep under the Great Glacier (FR14, P&P)
Umberlee: The Bitch Queen spent the Time of Troubles in the Sea of Fallen Stars, wreaking destruction on one pirate isle after another. She also appeared in the Trackless Sea, off the coast of Trisk near the Purple Rocks, where she is believed to have met with her seraph, a mighty kraken.
Waukeen: Shadowdale, Cormanthor, Astral Plane, the Abyss (F&A)
The locations of several Faerūnian powers remain unrevealed, including Akadi, Auril, Beshaba, Chauntea, Deneir, Eshowdow (since slain by Shar in any case), Gargauth, Grumbar, Ilmater, Istishia, Kossuth, Lathander, Leira, Loviatar, Lurue, Oghma, Tyr, Uthgar, and Valkur. Likewise, the demigod Jergal is mysteriously said to have played no part in the Time of Troubles. In addition, there are a few gods who had not yet become deities, including Finder Wyvernspur and Velsharoon.
Auril: Unknown (see Note 2)
Ilmater: Unknown (See Note 2)
Leira: Unknown (see Note 2)
Loviatar: Unknown (see Note 2)
[Julia, I included the Chultan pantheon in with the Faerūnian pantheon as it seemed like an artificial break in 2E that was done away with in 3E. In addition to the obvious sources, the following source material applies: Ao (Cloak of Shadows); Eldath (Cloak of Shadows), Garagos (Cloak and Dagger web enhancement), Hoar (Cloak of Shadows), Iyachtu Xvim (Ruins of Zhentil Keep), Lliira (Waukeen entry of Faiths and Avatars), Malar (Nobanion entry of Powers and Pantheons), Mask (Prince of Lies, 3E FRCS, Faiths and Avatars), Mielikki (Cloak of Shadows), Selūne (FR comic, 3E FRCS), Shar (FR comic, 3E FRCS, Sharess entry of Powers and Pantheons), Shaundakul (3E FRCS), Sune (Sharess entry of Powers and Pantheons), Talona (Canticle), Tempus (All Shadows Fled, 3E FRCS), Umberlee (Cloak and Dagger), Waukeen (For Duty and Deity)]
Mulhorandi Pantheon
Prior to the Godswar, the ancient nation of Mulhorand was ruled by the incarnations and manifestations of their gods, but nevertheless, noted for their somnolence. The Time of Troubles changed that, bringing about a new age of activism for the Mulhorandi pantheon. The location of most of Mulhorands gods during this time, including Hathor, Isis, Nephthys, Osiris, Sebek, Set, and Thoth, remains unrevealed although most of them were almost assuredly located in that ancient empire.
Anhur: Mulhorand, Alamber Sea (P&P)
Geb: Ship of the Gods (P&P)
Horus-Re: Unknown, but likely in Skuld as Pharaoh Horustep III (implied in P&P)
Untheric Pantheon
After millennia of misrule and tyranny under Gilgeam, what remained of the Untheric pantheon came to an end during the Godswar.
Gilgeam and Tiamat: Gilgeam, the god-king of Unther, was slain by his rival Tiamat in Unthalass, ending his two-millennium rule of that nation and spelling the end of the Untheric pantheon. Tiamat then joined the factitious Faerūnian pantheon.
Ramman: Ramman, Untheric god of war, was slain by his ancient rival Hoar, but was able to prevent his slayer from claiming his portfolio, instead passing it on to Anhur of the Mulhorandi pantheon
Nonhuman Powers
The locations of very few nonhuman gods have been revealed. The few that have been revealed are noted below.
Clangeddin Silverbeard and Labelas Enoreth: Clangeddin Silverbeard, in the form of three dwarves melded into a giant earth elemental, battled Labelas Enoreth, who had possessed the body of his cleric Vartan Hai Sylvar for use as his avatar, on the isle of Ruathym over a misunderstanding. The battle resulted in the destruction of Clangeddins avatar.
Deep Duerra: Duerras avatar appeared in Underspires, a duergar city deep below the Osraun Mountains of northern Turmish, in the form of the Queen Mother, who was serving as regent of the city until War King Olorn reached his maturity. Under the goddess leadership, the citys army extended the holdings of Underspires, before she disappeared into the southernmost reaches of the Underdark.
Ilsensine: The Tentacled Lord of the mind flayers manifested in the city of Oryndoll, miles beneath the Shining Plains west of the Vilhon Reach, adopting the elder brain of Oryndoll as its avatar form.
Lolth: The Spider Queen appeared in her great city of Menzoberranzan, home of the outcast Drizzt DoUrden, where she allegedly slew a minor drow deity of assassination and usurped her portfolio.
Segojan Earthcaller and Urdlen: Hardbuckler was the said to have been the site of a great struggle between the avatars and servants of the Lord of Burrows, Segojan, and the Crawler Below, Urdlen.
Sekolah: The great white shark deity of the sahuagin battled Anhur off the coast of Mulhorand in the Alamber Sea.
Selvertarm: Selvetarm rampaged through the drow city of Eryndlyn, located in hidden caves beneath the High Moor, attacking strongholds of the followers of Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun. The avatar was eventually driven into the wild Underdark by an alliance of the victimized cults.
[The locations of Clangeddin and Labelas are noted in the 3E FRCS, Demihuman Deities, and the old FR comic, Deep Duerra, Segojan, Selvetarm, and Urdlen are all noted in Demihuman Deities, Ilsensine is noted in Drizzt DoUrdens Guide to the Underdark, Lolth in Demihuman Deities, On Hallowed Ground, and the novel Siege of Darkness, and Sekolah in the Anhur entry of Powers and Pantheons.]
Spoiler Link
[Julia, you could either drop this section all together or maybe create a separate link to it on the website.]
Bane: Zhentil Keep, Castle Kilgrave, Shadowdale, Scardale, Tantras (FRE1,2; Av. Tril.)
Bhaal: Eveningstar, High Horn, Boareskyr Bridge (FRE2, Av. Tril.)
Cyric: Not yet a god. Arabel to Shadowdale to Tantras to Waterdeep (Av. Tril.)
Kelemvor: Not yet a god. Arabel to Shadowdale to Tantras to Waterdeep (Av. Tril.)
Mask: Disguised as Godsbane, Cyric's sword; Cormyr to Waterdeep (Prince of Lies)
Myrkul: Waterdeep (FRE3)
Mystra: Castle Kilgrave (FRE1)
Midnight.
Torm: Tantras (FRE2)
For more information about the Time of Troubles read the Avatar Trilogy of novels, including Shadowdale (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/964480000) by Scott Ciencin, Tantras (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/964480000) by Jim Lowder, and Waterdeep (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/964480000) by Troy Denning, and check out the Faiths and Pantheons (http://www.wizards.com/catalog/product.asp?88643) game product by Eric L. Boyd and Erik Mona. (A quick game-oriented look at some of Faerūns less prominent deities by Thomas E. Rinschler can be found in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting web enhancement, More of the Divine, at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010606a.)
Thanks: To Ed Greenwood, Julia Martin, Eric L. Boyd, Thomas E. Rinschler, Erik Mona, and everyone else who has played a part in bringing the gods of the Realms from the darkness of the Outer Planes into the light of Torils sun.
About the Author: Thomas M. Costa is a professional staffer for a committee in the U.S. House of Representatives. He has been a contributor to several Wizards of the Coast products such as Demihuman Deities and Races of Faerūn, and is the author or co-author of a number of Dragon Magazine and Wizards of the Coast website articles. He can be reached at THOMASC148@aol.com.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jun 2017 : 22:22:21
I don't think Jergal's location was ever detailed.
There used to be a list, on the WotC site, detailing where various deities were during the ToT. However, WotC has a very bad habit of rearranging their site, periodically, and not updating any links to the older material. I know for a fact that files posted on their site back in 2000 can still be located -- but only if you know the direct URL; even WotC's web people couldn't help me find them, circa 2004-2006.
So the list is most likely still there... But it'll be very difficult to find. |
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