| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Titus le Chmakus |
Posted - 03 Apr 2017 : 11:52:38
Hi
I'm trying to find the price to maintain soem units. In the 3.5 DMG, there is something about mercenaries hiring. But I'm looking for various classes. How much would it cost to lets say hire a Red wizard per day ? A Purple Dragon ? A basic city guard ... It there any 3.0/3.5ed book where this can be found ?
And on top of that, if anybody has any idea on how much a city can generate of GP per year ? I mean the total income, adding all the revenues (taxes, trade, everything). Or at least the rough size ? Is it a matter of 100 000 or 1 000 000 or maybe 100 000 000 GP ?
Thanks |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 07:42:42
Seeker le Chmakus,
While I don't want to go to far down this rabbit hole as most people are not that interested in economics (I do economic consultation for a living currently), there are some things to consider when trying to do basic econ in the Realms, because let me tell you: it is really broken when it comes to economics. Though, as a nod to Ed and every other designer/author out there: the game is a game, not an econ class. That being said...
There is something called Purchase Power Parity (PPP) that is really good to consider. You might ask, "Why give a s**t about that?", when trying to run a fun game. The answer is:
Challenges don't and shouldn't, always come from the tip of a sword or a fireball.
PPP is the cost differential of a basket of goods, i.e. a shield, long sword, 3 days trail rations and some silk rope, from one market to another, predicated on the currency exchange rate.
If you look at a Harbor Moon in Waterdeep, it is worth 50GP.....there. However, what is it worth in other places? Well, that depends on the utility of that specie (form of currency) in that market. A lot of places will just melt it down and weigh it out, and recast the raw metal into another coin, probably with their stamp.
The reason this is important is because a group of adventurers may have just scored "big" from a dungeon they just cleared with let's say 3000 gp. By most people's standards that is a lot, and it is. However, let's say those are in Waterdhavian Harbor Moons. They are now worth 5gp a Moon in markets not within the economic zone of Waterdeep. That 3000gp of Harbormoons is now worth 300gp unless you get to a market that caters to that form of specie.
Another horrible example of currency in the Realms are the Gond Bells. Now, consider this for a second....they are worth on the open market, a real trade value of 10gp each (I'm not even stipulating which countries specie, just gp in general), but if you trade them to a Gondan temple, they are worth 20gp there....
Yeah, that's like buying stock on the exchange from a broker for 'x', then selling it back directly to the Amazon stock treasury for '2x'. That's a good deal, and wouldn't last long.
The flavor of this stuff is great, but you can do some really simple things that are completely easy to figure out on the fly that can add a level and depth of realism to your game that you don't often see.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus
Thanks guys ! All I wanted basically is an order of magnitude, not the real prices at the nearest penny !!! So that I can tweak it to my needs. It helped a lot to know that a cathedral is 5 millions and a wizard is 3 000 a year !
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| Titus le Chmakus |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 08:14:55
Thanks guys ! All I wanted basically is an order of magnitude, not the real prices at the nearest penny !!! So that I can tweak it to my needs. It helped a lot to know that a cathedral is 5 millions and a wizard is 3 000 a year ! |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 14:33:04
I scrapped the D&D economy.
I looked up medieval prices in england and had a go at converting pounds shillings and pence into gp sp and cp (its not a direct relation because medieval coins werent decimal)
It works much better now. I make wizards pay 1sp per spell level to be cast plus any expensive reagents cost (which i keep the original price in gp from the phb - that way only kings can be resurrected and a wish could bankrupt a nation in reagents costs).
Of course that doesnt help you so all i can say is goodluck.
We can all help with lore, but no one can fix the worl* oops i mean D&D economy. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 13:33:09
Pay scales are a problem. I paid by rank. Basic troop annual wage 416 gold, plus food, shelter and equipment. Level 4 would likely have rank that would double or triple the base wage. So say at least 1,000 gold per year. The War Wizards would tend to have higher rank and gold would be in range of 3,000 to 3,500 gold per year.
Not nearly as much as an adventurer can make though the city provides protection, supplies and over all better quality of life. Healers ready to aid in case of injuries and so on.
As discussed before D&D economy does not work in any balanced way, so adjustments clearly need to be to try to make numbers work any reasonable way.
Example: Many clearly will point to a 10th level wizard can earn 500 gold a day casting a spell for others with the spell services guidelines. Which is nice pay if people come every day to ask for a spell and can pay the price. In the realms however there will not be that many people that would have 500 gold to pay for the spell. Very few would go to purchase a spell, they can not afford it. The wizard if lucky might get asked to cast a spell once a month and not all cost 500 gold. Some are less. |
| Titus le Chmakus |
Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 08:39:19
Ok thanks a lot for the estimations. It gives me a good idea of what kind of budget I need.
Any idea about the price for maintaining, per year a soldier ? A wizard ?
So that I could have the cost according to the unit size I need. Example a unit of 10 War wizards or 100 city guards ... I've seen you taked about the level, so lets say the wizards are level 10 and the city guards are level 3/4.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Apr 2017 : 13:49:40
Money within the city flows between the people. The city collects taxes, the city pays its employees, the employees rent/own homes, buy food, etc. from businesses, the homes and businesses pay taxes to the city. There also can be import and export taxes and so on. The money circulates that is part of the city's wealth.
As too your initial question. I did try to work out a city of 50,000 with additional 20000 farmers with some of 3.5 prices and rules. I had to make certain adjustments. In part because 3.5 wage scale is based on skill levels. The more skill levels the higher the weekly wage does not work well.
For my city and payroll and maintenance costs the annual taxes were 8355009 so about 10 million a year. I should note that some of taxes collected was grain from farmers, this feed to the army or sold on the open market for coin.
As to the cost of a cathedral it depends how big it is. I would guess costs would start at maybe 5 million. Now of course you could start out with a church that would cost far less. The one thing about religious construction is that odds are good that donations of coin and labor would reduce the out of cost pockets of the PCs.
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| Titus le Chmakus |
Posted - 12 Apr 2017 : 09:01:44
Ok but that Spending Limit is just the cash available for the town hall ... It does not include all the costs to maintain the city's agents (guards, army, spies etc ...) ?
I'm trying to find out what kind of order of magnitude for tax income/units upkeep is involved in the D&D budgets. Is it a matter of 100 000 per year ? 1 million ? 100 millions ?
And also, any idea on how much a cathedral would cost for example ? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Apr 2017 : 01:32:15
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus
What do you mean by really broken ? Does it mean not coherent ?
Indeed not fully coherent. A bushel of wheat is purchased at the same price from the farm just harvested and from a city hundred miles away in the dead of winter. This one of the quickest example of how D&D prices does not match up. That wheat did not move from the farm to the city at no cost. People needed to be paid, taxes needed to be paid and so on. Other examples include the cost of a cart/wagon wheel and compared to the cost of the cart or wagon with wheels on it.
While there have been some efforts to address pricing concerns the default position has tended to be, the price that adventurers are expected to pay. That NPCs or at least some of them purchase items at lower prices.quote:
And you were right, there is are records of economical concerns in the regions Sourcebooks. Example, I found out for Mulmaster to have a Spending Limit of 100 000 GP and Assets up to 233 195 000 GP. But I'm no ecomnomist nor English to be my mother tongue ... So I do not know what to do with these numbers. Do you know what does it mean ? Like the city generates 233 million GP per year, toghether with trade, taxes etc ? Or is it the total value of the city (building value + all the cash + all the items)? How about the Spending Limit ?
As I understand it is that Spending Limit equal coin on hand to purchase item or pay in rewards. Something that can be paid right now.
Assets equal the available coin plus the value of buildings and equipment, the weapons and so on that could be turned into coin after a period of time, sometimes years. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 11 Apr 2017 : 23:16:11
I would say; "Spending Limit" is, how much Money can you use there at once (like, before the stores need to buy more supplies). And "Assets", is what they have. In Money, trade goods, magical items, supplies and so on.
A store needs some "assets" to still be a store, as horses and a cart to get stuff, some supplies for use by the staff, etc, property, buildings, etc. You basically got the assets right; but I do not think a D&D city generates 233 millions gold a year. More like, Mulmaster consist of assets Worth that much, at any time (if you buys for 100 000 gold, you leave Money Worth that much). |
| Titus le Chmakus |
Posted - 10 Apr 2017 : 11:54:17
What do you mean by really broken ? Does it mean not coherent ?
And you were right, there is are records of economical concerns in the regions Sourcebooks. Example, I found out for Mulmaster to have a Spending Limit of 100 000 GP and Assets up to 233 195 000 GP. But I'm no ecomnomist nor English to be my mother tongue ... So I do not know what to do with these numbers. Do you know what does it mean ? Like the city generates 233 million GP per year, toghether with trade, taxes etc ? Or is it the total value of the city (building value + all the cash + all the items)? How about the Spending Limit ? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Apr 2017 : 11:30:04
Well the main problem you have is that the economy of d&d is really broken
However if you want prices the only thing i can think for what you describe might benin power of faerun.
The gdp of cities i believe are present in the writeup of that city for any 3.5 sourcebook |
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