| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 31 Jan 2017 : 12:13:39
I've been thinking about climate on Toril, and as many sages before me have noted, I can't help but notice the Endless Ice Sea and other ice formations are very far south of where they would be expected. The Endless Ice Sea starts at about the 52nd parallel north, and can't be accounted for with Earth as a close parallel to Toril (although the size and tilt are different, they're not different enough). Ed has said in the past that winters are about the equivalent of +5 parallels north, but that's still not enough. Admittedly he was mainly talking about the Heartlands and Waterdeep, but it still seems like it couldn't be that cold up there.
It's possible the entire area could be at an altitude of 2,000+ metres, which might account for it. Or, magic, or gods. Or Ulutiu's necklace had a far greater effect than just the Great Glacier.
Any ideas, sages? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 09:00:06
Senior Scribe KanzenAU,
I completely get your issue here. Though it isn't completely on topic, I think it may affect the weather possibly: Continental drift.
If you look at the placement of the continents a mere 40,000'ish years in the past, those continents were moving at transwarp speeds! I mean, I have no idea what would happen if continents moved that fast in terms of climate, but I suspect it would be significant. What took billions of years on Earth took a mere 40k years or so.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
That is almost certainly true, but I'm hoping there's a little bit more to it than that, and that those sorts of things didn't account for Toril-wide, centuries lasting, climate changes - at least not en masse.
I've had a look at the axial tilt (28.89deg) and other parameters of Toril as laid down by Ed in previous threads, and figured out the Arctic Circle should be as low as 61.11deg north of the equator (Earth's is around 66). We know the last ice age extended on Earth extended about as far down as the 40th parallel north (getting right down to Manhattan), albeit 20,000 years ago, so ice being down to such a level isn't flat out totally crazy. But, the greater axial tilt of Toril should also melt ice faster, due to greater sun exposure, so this doesn't seem like enough on its own. While we don't know how much the tilt wobbles, it can't be too drastic, as that would cause widespread environmental chaos.
I wonder if Toril isn't still recovering from an ice age, perhaps the one mentioned in GHotR as ending about 37,000 years ago. At first glance it seems that over that amount of time, given the similarity of Toril's climate to that of Earth, the glaciers should have receded more. However, the GHotR makes it sound like that ice age was no minor thing, and covered the whole of Toril.
quote:
This earliest days of recorded history begin at the end of a great Ice Age, some 37,000 years ago, when the last glaciations largely ended and the great ocean receded to reveal dry land.
In that case, especially considering the large albedo slowdown effect that amount of ice and snow would produce, it seems possible that they're still receding. There's also the fact that the North Pole of Toril is significantly blocked off from warm ocean currents by large continents in most directions, resulting in far from maximal heating of the glaciers. The Spine of the World would further shield the glaciers from many of the warming winds.
A receding Ice Age as the cause seems to be what I'm going with for now. Interested in others' thoughts! And yes, the Ring of Winter is always an option...
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Feb 2017 : 08:50:46
I still hate anything deity in my myths and legends. I keep the story but its only loosely based on what actually happened.
Ive reinvented this story a number of times but this will probably be the last because there isnt a god or primordial to be found.
So we have a crystalline moon and a regular moon.
The regular moon is what we know in toril today.
The crystalline one was made of an impure crystal that made it red in colour. Ita orbit was closer to toril than the other moon so it orbited faster and would appear during the day and night.
When the sun shone on it, it would heat up massively and glow a brilliant red that made it look like a second sun. As it cooled it would fade to a deep crimson or burgundy (almost purple( but would still be visible during the night.
The sarrukh called this moon ssharstrune and they loved it. It gave them heat and warmth during the night which helped them to stay more active. The batrachi called it zotha and they hated it.
Zotha was destroyed when it was struck by a large comet that the batrachi called asgoroth. They believed this comet (that appeared every few centuries) was a gigntic sea serpent that swam through the black ocean of night.
As with most creatures everyone worshipped these celestial bodies as gods. That doesnt make them gods. They were just large lumps of rock.
Asgoroth would pass closer to toril with each pass until it eventually struck zotha.
The crystalline moon was shattered and various lumps of it descended upon toril. Asgoroth itself was deflected off into the cosmos and its journey takes it past toril every few millennia. As luck would have it this is the same comet chosen by the elves to form part of their dracorage mythal.
The smaller piecea of zotha that plummeted to toril melted (or burned up in the atmosphere) and hit the ground as egg shaped lumps of molten rock.
The larger pieces of zotha slammed into toril and merged the inner seas into a single sea and also created a number of smaller seas (like the dragon/moonsea).
For whatever reason (probably a spontaneous wild magic event) the small shards of zotha cracked open to reveal all manner of varied draconic life forms which (after millennia of natural evolution and magical tinkering) would eventually become dragons.
Thats how im spinning it. The legend is a conflation of this original event merged with stories and events and untruths, all twisted by time and chinese whispers into what we have today. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Feb 2017 : 05:57:39
There was also a very confusing scene in the RotAW series (and unlike other works by that author, I felt that in that series he actually 'did his homework', so to speak) where Shar does something VERY un-Shar like - she appears as a 'twinkling' (smiling?) pair of eyes, that winks mischievously at the main characters. It was almost... playful. 
That sounds WAY more like Mystra's behavior (and I even thought that maybe later in the story we'd find out it WAS Mystra that time, but NOPE, if was definitely Shar). It was the only time I have ever seen her portrayed as anything less than 'pure evil' (and it was a welcome change, albeit a confusing one).
I am really starting to think there is something to that whole 'two sides of the same coin' heresy. 
At Dazzlerdal - It only makes sense Abeir-Toril had TWO moons: Shar and Selūne were sisters... maybe even twins. Why doesn't Shar have her own 'heavenly body'? And her symbol looks like like a 'dark moon', which I always thought was merely obfuscated from Toril's surface because it was black-on-a-black background (but then people should see a round section of the night sky where the stars just disappear). Also in her symbol - it has a purple 'aura' - once again, purple is blue and red mixed. Its almost as if Shar is the one with the 'mixed energies', not Mystra/Mystryl.
And the last time I was musing over this same thing (and the colors), thats when Ed said I was 'real close' to something. Some 10 years later, and I'm no closer. 
EDIT: And in that same novel series, it was pointed-out that Shar's symbol can easily be turned into Cyric's symbol... except his is the 'Dark Sun' (also with 'purple energies' oozing off of it). So there we have more examples of a second sun/second moon. Maybe thats what the Dark Chronologies were really all about? It was a prophesy having to do with the return of 'the lost son/sun'? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Feb 2017 : 20:58:16
I would point out that during the Time of Troubles, we saw both Shar and Selūne, as separate avatars. Both were in Waterdeep, and Shar was masquerading as Selūne -- mainly to drive the latter crazy and steal her power. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Feb 2017 : 18:38:58
First, after reading what you ust quoted, I realized I got my "What if..?" stuff all mixed up, so I changed some names around in my original quote (can't have Tiamet be our 'great creator god' LOL)
Here's the thing - I think you are using RW interpretations of myths, rather than just taking the myths as-is, without all our 'sciencey' baggage. In other words, the planets ARE gods (just as how the Greeks, etc., had them). I don't think Garyx lived in the moon, I think it was the moon. Creatures at that level of power can take any form they wish, including a giant, 'glowing' crystal (or an egg?)
And by the way, a 'creator' named Garyx (Gary Gygax)? I think they are giving that one away... 
A shiny moon that reflects light in such a way that it looks like a small sun? Either thats Selūne (and my weird theory that she's been dead all along is true), or thats a 'child of Selūne' that was never allowed to 'hatch' (fully form) by Shar/Asgorath/whatever. I had a theory that there were two 'suns' (there is a quote somewhere that confirms this, but IIRC, it falls into the 'legend' category), and this is why we have two sun gods (which falls into the whole non-MarkusTay theory about The Dusk Lord).
I've been confused for quite some time about all these 'missing planetary bodies', but what you just said about the crystal moon being so bright - now I think the second moon WAS the second sun! This was blasted apart during the battle, and a lot of it rained down on Abeir-Toril, but some of it still floats behind its 'mother' - the Tears of Selūne.
But I still think 'something else' died in that battle, not just the child. I think either Selūne herself, or Shar, and the survivor went a little nuts and now is both goddesses (could Mystryl possibly be a third, amalgam, personality?)
And at these levels of power - when a being can split itself into 20+ different aspects (avatars), is there really a difference between separate beings, and separate personalities? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Feb 2017 : 07:30:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I found a quote of interest (once again, while looking for something completely unrelated). Some of my musings about the 'before time' (pre-Sundering) spilled-over into another thread, and this could have gone there, but I feel its more appropriate to this conversation (thread).
quote:
From page 9 of Giantcraft -
According to ancient giant legends, the sun is home to a great fiery dragon god that led dragonkind in the war against the giants.
I can't believe I missed this before.
The way that it ties into the other thread (the one about Dragon Age) is that there seems to be a time when Celestial (cosmic) dragons and 'gods' were very much one and the same thing. Now, at that time, the 'gods' were probably very different than the ones we know today - all primordials, 'elder evils', arch-this or that, etc. And moon-sized dragons (like the one they built into the Dragonwall over in Kara-Tur).
So maybe Shar and Selūne were actually the same beings as in the Draconic myths - its only human hubris that anthropomorphizes these beings of unimaginable might. By the same token, they aren't really dragons either - they would have just appeared that way in ancient times to their scaly followers. In the Chultan mythos, their 'big bad' is Eshowdow (possibly Shar?), and their 'god of light' is Ubtao, creator of the dinosaurs (so, Saurians, 'scaly kind', etc). The only other bad guy in their pantheon is Sseth, who is an aspect of Set, and also associated with scaly and draconic deities. All these very primitive/ancient pantheons and mythos have scaled gods at their core, and related to their creation legends.
EDIT:
And speaking of Chult, in the original lore, Jazirian was the god that lead the couatls to Chult (from Katashaka), but in the GHotR, it says it was Ubtao that did that. I had assumed that was just to remove Jazirian from FR lore, but what if it was because they are one and the same?
What if Ubtao is Jazirian is Selūne is Asgorath (is Tiamet!), and Eshowdow is Ahriman is Shar is 'The Renegade' (Bahamut/Marduk)?
I took that quote from giantcraft to mean that the giants associated the appearance of garyx with the destruction of the crystal moon zotha (the one destroyed by asgoroth that crashed into toril and led to the birth of the dragon species). Not that there was actually a dragon lairing inside the sun (or crystal red moon that looks like a sun when the sunlight hits it)
But then again i treat all the myths and legends as only being dimly related to the truth |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Feb 2017 : 02:43:20
According to the Great History of the Realms, the "God of Dragons" that led the dragons in the war against the giants was Garyx. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Feb 2017 : 02:35:27
I found a quote of interest (once again, while looking for something completely unrelated). Some of my musings about the 'before time' (pre-Sundering) spilled-over into another thread, and this could have gone there, but I feel its more appropriate to this conversation (thread).
quote:
From page 9 of Giantcraft -
According to ancient giant legends, the sun is home to a great fiery dragon god that led dragonkind in the war against the giants.
I can't believe I missed this before.
The way that it ties into the other thread (the one about Dragon Age) is that there seems to be a time when Celestial (cosmic) dragons and 'gods' were very much one and the same thing. Now, at that time, the 'gods' were probably very different than the ones we know today - all primordials, 'elder evils', arch-this or that, etc. And moon-sized dragons (like the one they built into the Dragonwall over in Kara-Tur).
So maybe Shar and Selūne were actually the same beings as in the Draconic myths - its only human hubris that anthropomorphizes these beings of unimaginable might. By the same token, they aren't really dragons either - they would have just appeared that way in ancient times to their scaly followers. In the Chultan mythos, their 'big bad' is Eshowdow (possibly Shar?), and their 'god of light' is Ubtao, creator of the dinosaurs (so, Saurians, 'scaly kind', etc). The only other bad guy in their pantheon is Sseth, who is an aspect of Set, and also associated with scaly and draconic deities. All these very primitive/ancient pantheons and mythos have scaled gods at their core, and related to their creation legends.
EDIT:
And speaking of Chult, in the original lore, Jazirian was the god that lead the couatls to Chult (from Katashaka), but in the GHotR, it says it was Ubtao that did that. I had assumed that was just to remove Jazirian from FR lore, but what if it was because they are one and the same?
What if Ubtao is Jazirian is Selūne is 'The Renegade' (Bahamut/Marduk), and Eshowdow is Ahriman is Shar is Asgorath (is Tiamet!) ? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Feb 2017 : 22:38:05
Also, whatever 'life draining' magics the Phaerimm were using on Anauroch/Netheril probably lowered the temperature there quite a bit (and we have the 'High Ice').
So powerful Mages - not just gods - may have affected weather patterns and caused 'mini ice-ages' every so often in Faerūn's history.
Also, when we apply a little logic/RW physics to magic (and a bit of lore 'borrowed' from The Belgariad series of novels), nothing is ever actually 'created' - everything a wizard does borrows 'stuff' from somewhere else (and quite often causes a catastrophic imbalance). Thus, when the Red Wizards create a tropical climate in their northerly Realm, something somewhere just got a LOT colder.
And 'buried primordials' (we have a few of those now thanks to 4e, although they 'may' have always been there without us knowing about them) may also be affecting weather, but usually more localized, like whats happening with Neverwinter and Mt. Hotenow.
The whole thing with Ulutiu may only be a legend, greatly altered with time. Ulutiu may have been an ice primordial who lay trapped beneath the Great Glacier (there's even a mountain range in the center that could serve as his 'cairn').
I'm starting to think Toril is just a great big ball of dead 'gods'. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 08 Feb 2017 : 21:15:08
You're back! I feel a little silly, but I got super-excited when I saw a post from "The Hooded One" had been made again! You've been sorely missed, this place just isn't the same without you!
I will admit I only skimmed the Epic Level Handbook very briefly, but I had better go back and take a closer look...
Edit: I went back and had a look, and the Iyraclea entry talks about her extending the Great Glacier back into the Cold Lands - is it possible her magics also affected the Endless Ice Sea, and brought the glaciers further south than they had been, from around 632 DR (the date they "expand" under her by the GHotR)? I had made the assumption that the Ulutiu and Iyraclea events were isolated to the Great Glacier, but perhaps that was premature... |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 08 Feb 2017 : 18:33:26
Kanzen, you've read the 3e Epic Level Handbook, yes? With the lore about Iyraclea? It speaks to your original question...
love,
THO |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Feb 2017 : 13:18:06
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and on the idea of the "dragonlaser" being part of the -31000 DR event, its worth a reread of the GHotR entry.
"Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought."
So, it was indeed a second event shooting at the moon. Man, those dragons sure are infatuated with the moon. Some shoot it... another breaths its breath upon it to "destroy" it... or was it impregnate it... Wonder if there secretly are some special "dragons" on the moon. Do you think they truly missed, or did they assume that killing Selune (as she is the goddess of celestial entities like stars and comets) would stop the power of the King-Killer Star?
As others have said too, there may have been multiple tearfalls over time, though not necessarily all with globe spanning impacts. Still, some might have caused the deaths of large swaths of local populations. Selune might really be a mean beeyotch when you think about it.
I'm pretty sure as said above it's -35,000 end of ice age, -31,500 Tearfall/Asgorath/batrachi event, approx -24,000 Dragonlaser. Not sure if there's any good lore matching the dragonlaser to a climate event on Toril or to the Asgorath event.
Edit: The "same event" we were talking about was the Asgorath event being potentially responsible for both the SoFS and the Moonsea. Admittedly there is some confusion with the Asgorath event being called the "Tearfall" before the Tears of Selune are created, but I don't think the Tearfall actually refers to these tears - it's the "tears"/blood of Asgorath.
You may have said that, but amidst everyone talking, I think there was some discussion on them still being one event. Just posting that because I reread the entry. I'd agree, around -24000 DR fits it. I'd also agree with other posits that there was more than one time that a moon shard fell from the heavens (along the same lines, I'm also betting that portions of Abeir and Toril have displaced at other times as well). |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 07 Feb 2017 : 21:02:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and on the idea of the "dragonlaser" being part of the -31000 DR event, its worth a reread of the GHotR entry.
"Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought."
So, it was indeed a second event shooting at the moon. Man, those dragons sure are infatuated with the moon. Some shoot it... another breaths its breath upon it to "destroy" it... or was it impregnate it... Wonder if there secretly are some special "dragons" on the moon. Do you think they truly missed, or did they assume that killing Selune (as she is the goddess of celestial entities like stars and comets) would stop the power of the King-Killer Star?
As others have said too, there may have been multiple tearfalls over time, though not necessarily all with globe spanning impacts. Still, some might have caused the deaths of large swaths of local populations. Selune might really be a mean beeyotch when you think about it.
I'm pretty sure as said above it's -35,000 end of ice age, -31,500 Tearfall/Asgorath/batrachi event, approx -24,000 Dragonlaser. Not sure if there's any good lore matching the dragonlaser to a climate event on Toril or to the Asgorath event.
Edit: The "same event" we were talking about was the Asgorath event being potentially responsible for both the SoFS and the Moonsea. Admittedly there is some confusion with the Asgorath event being called the "Tearfall" before the Tears of Selune are created, but I don't think the Tearfall actually refers to these tears - it's the "tears"/blood of Asgorath. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Feb 2017 : 17:57:14
I much prefer George Krashos' take on Bright Nydra. Look for the article on Jergal for more details.
The summary is she was a netherese archwizard that took part in a ritual involving Jergal (trying to bring back the spellweaver race) and survived and also gained a sliver of divine power. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 07 Feb 2017 : 17:31:24
Maybe Selune was a portal to Abeir and the Dragons kept trying to open it up for reinforcements? Ok Elves you want a Rage of Dragons, we the Dragon will give you one you will never forget. A Draconic Armageddon. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2017 : 13:47:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And just for shouts & giggles... (  )
I was researching a locale in Dragon Magazine #307 when I came across this bit:
quote:
On a midwinter night a millennium ago, legend claims Bright Nydra fell to Faerūn from the trailing lights of the Tears of Selūne in the form of a falling star. She is the winter moon that brings the Marsh Drovers hope and strength as they await the arrival of spring. She claimed to be the daughter of Selūne and Shaundakul and a goddess of hope and renewal.
That was in the article Heroes of Cormyr, which introduced a few new Prestige Classes (because lord knows we just didn't have enough PrC's in 3rd edition).
Great resource you made there, KanzenAU.
Bright Nydra a daughter of Shaundakul (wind primordial?) and Selune huh. It could be interesting to start documenting all the "children" of Selune. Lurue, Mystra, Bright Nydra.... betting there's probably a dozen more. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2017 : 13:44:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And just for shouts & giggles... ( )
I was researching a locale in Dragon Magazine #307 when I came across this bit:
quote:
On a midwinter night a millennium ago, legend claims Bright Nydra fell to Faerūn from the trailing lights of the Tears of Selūne in the form of a falling star. She is the winter moon that brings the Marsh Drovers hope and strength as they await the arrival of spring. She claimed to be the daughter of Selūne and Shaundakul and a goddess of hope and renewal.
That was in the article Heroes of Cormyr, which introduced a few new Prestige Classes (because lord knows we just didn't have enough PrC's in 3rd edition).
Great resource you made there, KanzenAU.
And thus, Selune may have created many "aspects" of herself, some of which she sent to earth (and some of which she may have allowed to take from her power, such as Nanna-Sin)..... or we could be granting too much power to Selune.
Oh, and on the idea of the "dragonlaser" being part of the -31000 DR event, its worth a reread of the GHotR entry.
"Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought."
So, it was indeed a second event shooting at the moon. Man, those dragons sure are infatuated with the moon. Some shoot it... another breaths its breath upon it to "destroy" it... or was it impregnate it... Wonder if there secretly are some special "dragons" on the moon. Do you think they truly missed, or did they assume that killing Selune (as she is the goddess of celestial entities like stars and comets) would stop the power of the King-Killer Star?
As others have said too, there may have been multiple tearfalls over time, though not necessarily all with globe spanning impacts. Still, some might have caused the deaths of large swaths of local populations. Selune might really be a mean beeyotch when you think about it. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 06 Feb 2017 : 14:37:24
Truly the Realms was shaped by its past wars and conflicts. Marvelous setting... |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 06 Feb 2017 : 03:01:32
Thanks very much! Quite a bit of research and effort went into that one.
Another idea:
-35,000 DR: Last ice age ends, Days of Thunder begins. The glaciers begin retreating from much farther south than where they are now.
-31,500 DR: Ice has receded to near modern levels when the batrachi unleash Asgorath & other primordials. The resulting chaos sees the creation of the SoFS (& possibly the Dragon Sea) due to the Tearfall as caused by Asgorath. The climactic change is so widespread the batrachi are wiped out, possibly due to rising ozone and methane levels. Most other races, including humans, survive because the changes are only delicate - or predominantly affect the oceans somehow. As the chaos settles, the ozone & methane (& other chemicals) rise to the stratosphere, and are drawn towards the poles. They subsequently block more heat reaching the polar areas, stopping the glaciers from receding further.
This manages, I think, to massage the events enough to allow all the sources to be true - the main point being that the story allows the Endless Ice Sea to exist as far south as it does. However, this idea just came to me while I'm out, and I haven't checked the science yet. Those specific chemicals may not work, but I hope to find something that does. like it thus far though...
Edit: PS, how the ocean and wind currents worked out exactly with how Ed described them in threads about Waterdeep's weather (once the Coriolis force etc were applied) gives me a whole new level of respect for the man. I thought working it all out would surely differ, at least slightly, from established lore - but it lines up perfectly. The man truly puts so much thought into what he does.
Edit 2: The more I think about it, ozone and methane would be poor choices. However, the idea of something being spewed into the atmosphere (and subsequently migrating towards the poles like ozone does) that blocks a bit more sunlight coming through seems to hold up. Alternatively, we could raise the albedo effect at the poles beyond what it is on Earth - for instance, we could say the snow is whiter on Toril due to less impurities (or something). I prefer the "increased atmospheric particles around the poles after the Tearfall" explanation though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 23:11:32
And just for shouts & giggles... ( )
I was researching a locale in Dragon Magazine #307 when I came across this bit:
quote:
On a midwinter night a millennium ago, legend claims Bright Nydra fell to Faerūn from the trailing lights of the Tears of Selūne in the form of a falling star. She is the winter moon that brings the Marsh Drovers hope and strength as they await the arrival of spring. She claimed to be the daughter of Selūne and Shaundakul and a goddess of hope and renewal.
That was in the article Heroes of Cormyr, which introduced a few new Prestige Classes (because lord knows we just didn't have enough PrC's in 3rd edition).
Great resource you made there, KanzenAU. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 22:15:14
On the idea of the two instances being somehow the same as well.... The "Dragon Laser" and "Asgorath" touching its breath to the ice moon/crystal sun... So, maybe what was fired at the moon from the hill of the lost gods was actually some kind of concentrated godly dragon breath. Still like the idea of the dragon reach being somehow tied to this as well... the idea of a big skidding ball of ice just digging up a rut in the dirt that became the dragon reach... and maybe that piled up dirt is why there's only a small river connecting the moonsea to the inner sea. Could also be an explanation for "the lake of dragons", but with a different falling fragment. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 11:44:44
I've built a large-scale climate map of Toril to get a better idea of the situation, and anyone interested can download it here. It makes heavy use of the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, which I highly recommend, and was inspired by Markustay's map of Toril over on DeviantArt. It's 8 Mb. Comments and criticism looked for and welcome.
That's all I have for now on this topic because I have to go, but I'm hoping seeing the situation might help inspire some ideas for what to do with that Endless Ice Sea...
Edit: this is based off the known size and details of Toril, plus the science of Earth. It also lines up with the currents I'm aware of Ed talking about in the Trackless Sea. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 06:24:38
Yeah, I haven't re-read that book in quite some time - I just recall them heading that way, and then going a bit further.
I like the idea of one event creating BOTH seas - that hadn't occurred to me. Then, if we later had a(nother?) 'melting event', and the seas grew in size (by at least 50-100 miles), that could explain a LOT, even the legendary 'Kingdom of Giants' that supposedly existed in the sea of Fallen Stars. (The islands would all be one large land-mass).
Could it be possible that the the Polar Ice has been melting ever since the first Sundering? (when the Ice Moon fell/burst/whatever). Hmmmm... Ice Moon... melting ice... I am missing a piece somewhere...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, on the "dragonlaser" (and yes, I agree, we really need another name for that.... I'm kind of irritated using it) making the moonsea.... IF a chunk of the moon were to come in at say an angle, hitting the edge of the inner sea and creating a "rut" in the earth and then ultimately ended in the moonsea. This "rut" or "trench" in the earth could very well be the "dragonreach". Maybe even the "meteor" broke on impact after creating the "rut" and a smaller piece cut a smaller trench up to the "dragonsea". Maybe even there were multiple pieces of meteor that struck creating the dragonreach and moon sea.
We were just calling it the 'Dracolaser', but thats not much better. The Dracobeam? Dacolumin? Dracolight? Wurrminator? The Photonic Anihilator? LOL
Yeah, I'm definitely leaning toward smaller seas (and probably NOT connected back then), and then something made the sea levels rise, and now we have the current situation. But instead of different events, all one event affecting everything - Occam's Razor.
Its kinda funny - in 4e, the sea levels in those seas was supposed to drop by about fifty miles of coast - very close to how I am picturing them originally being. Now, the designers at that time said they had based all of their decisions on some 'panic button' Ed had built into the Realms - some sort of 'doomsday switch' that no-one was ever supposed to actually use. Its too bad they never actually drew the 4e maps with that change in coasts, because we might've gotten to see what the seas looked like immediately after the sundering, before all that arctic ice melted.
Perhaps it would have revealed too much? Maybe thats why it was never shown? Hmmmmm...
The Vilhon Reach was also created artificially, and that drowned Jhaamdath, so that 'arm' would not have been there as well (although there is DEFINITELY something 'funny' about the Arkanamere (Arkana?  ). Also the Highstar Lake (Lake Evendusk) in the High Moor has similar oddities (something 'at the bottom'), so a lot of other bodies of wate could be where pieces of the 'Ice Moon' fell.
So no comment on my 'crazy Shar/crazy Selūne theory? Maybe I should have posted that separately over in 'General Chat' - its pretty 'out there'. |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 04:38:26
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No, except for a conversation with Ed (in his thread here), and the story that is the 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms - which has the party travel toward the Moonsea in search of the 'fallen tear', but then beyond it (as I said, I assume it landed in the Great Glacier, which, if the story did happen a few centuries before 1e, then that could have been part of the reason why the icecap melted). The thing with Ed was something about why the name changed from The Dragon Sea to The Moonsea, but that was very long time ago, when I was trying to track-down every instance of 'Star' or 'Moon' in every FR name. He had also made a rather cryptic comment somewhere about "the greatest secret of the Realms has been staring everyone in the face all along".
I went over the 2e Player's Guide, as far as I can tell that depicts a Tear landing in Thar and later being carried to Vaasa. As far as the Ed thread goes, my search-fu has failed me unfortunately. 
I did however turn up from this thread that lots of the Tears have fallen over the years. However, no mention of them causing widespread damage when they fell or inducing climate-changing conditions.
The Moonsea could have been created by the Tearfall/Asgorath/batrachi event along with the Sea of Fallen Stars though. We know it was around as far back at least as far -24,500 from the GHotR, so who knows. As for me, I don't think there's enough lore out there to say that it was caused by any specific event, so I'm going to assume there wasn't a mass climate change event involved with it (outside of the Tearfall). There may very well be a grand secret out there, but without knowing... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 03:38:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Asgorath myth tells us about him eating the sun. We know it is the same event that ended Batrachi rule and we know that meteorite swarm created Sea of the Fallen Stars from multiple lakes already in the area. It also created Seven Turn Winter - seven years long darkness from ash cloud. I see this "eating of sun" as poetic description of this long period of darkness.
Dragon laser - for me it was a desparate attempt by dragons to stop the Rage from destroying their empires by binding seven lost gods and use their power to break that curse. Sadly it didn't work well and those lost gods broke free. The hills around Westgate are remnant of this ritual.
Actually the draconomicon myth wasn't about eating the crystal sun, it was that "breathing her breath into it" and then the crystal sun "burst". Its almost like it was a mating ritual between Asgorath/Asgoroth the world shaper and "the ice moon Zotha" or the "crystal sun created by Zotha". I wonder if it WAS a sexual act, was it an act of rape? I also note, Asgorath/Asgoroth is portrayed as a woman whereas Io is portrayed as male (he is the "father" of Tiamat). Not saying they aren't the same entity, just noting it is an interesting "thing".
"Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World."
Kind of makes me wonder the actual relationship between Ao / Io and the real reason for splitting the world... was it actually to separate dawn titans and gods? Or was it something to get the more powerful dragons out of Toril. OR was it that this "bursting" of the "egg" that was the ice moon/crystal sun actually BIRTHED another world. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 03:15:13
Actually, on the "dragonlaser" (and yes, I agree, we really need another name for that.... I'm kind of irritated using it) making the moonsea.... IF a chunk of the moon were to come in at say an angle, hitting the edge of the inner sea and creating a "rut" in the earth and then ultimately ended in the moonsea. This "rut" or "trench" in the earth could very well be the "dragonreach". Maybe even the "meteor" broke on impact after creating the "rut" and a smaller piece cut a smaller trench up to the "dragonsea". Maybe even there were multiple pieces of meteor that struck creating the dragonreach and moon sea. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 02:57:46
No, except for a conversation with Ed (in his thread here), and the story that is the 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms - which has the party travel toward the Moonsea in search of the 'fallen tear', but then beyond it (as I said, I assume it landed in the Great Glacier, which, if the story did happen a few centuries before 1e, then that could have been part of the reason why the icecap melted). The thing with Ed was something about why the name changed from The Dragon Sea to The Moonsea, but that was very long time ago, when I was trying to track-down every instance of 'Star' or 'Moon' in every FR name. He had also made a rather cryptic comment somewhere about "the greatest secret of the Realms has been staring everyone in the face all along".
Which I think has to do with what we are talking about here with these 'tear falls', and also the shape of the Inner sea itself. What if the Sea itself used to be smaller, because it had less water in it? Maybe BECAUSE the polar icecaps have been melting the sea levels have risen (and if you read through PftF, PftM, and SotM you'll see him talk about a LOT of island chains, peninsulas, and whole kingdoms that existed on the Sword Coast that have since been 'swept beneath the waves'). That would also mean all the islands in the SoFS would be larger, and maybe connected - a lost 'landmass' right there in the middle of it (and note that the Dragonisle - volcano and all - falls-out where a heart would be, IF the shape of the Inner Sea was due to a being landing there).
All of this I've brought-up to Ed, and all my guesses about these 'deeper secrets' he said "dances around something very monumental, but I wasn't quite hitting the nail on the head". So for almost 20 years, I just keep turning all this information - and the myths about Toril's creation - over and over in my head, trying to get a new angle on things. One thing that was confirmed is that the 'Tears of Selūne' are so-named for more than poetic reasons - something about their original creation makes Selūne very sad. Thus, a lost 'child' or 'lover', I'm thinking, or maybe something else. Perhaps something even closer to her.
For the past couple of years a very strange theory has been taking shape in my head, and I think if its true, than perhaps the TSR/WotC employees have since created some lore that has made 'Ed's Truth' either impossible, or much harder to reconcile, and that is that Shar DIED during the War of Light & Darkness, and all of that are her remains, and that 'crime' drove Selūne insane, and now she has two personalities... hers, and that of her dead sister. However, since THAT would have had to have been part of FR's core concepts all along, and we know when Ed first created his Realms, I think that may have been a bit too cerebral for a Five-year-old... even if it was a brillaint five year old like I am sure Ed was.
On the other hand, at some point, WotC did officially release that 'heresy' that Shar and Selūne were really one and the same. We had a similar heresy with Lathander/Aumanator, and we have since found out that that conspiracy was TRUE. Still, for a five year old to come up with 'crazy uber-god that has multiple personality disorder because she couldn't handle her own killing of her sister' is probably MORE far-fetched than the theory itself.
But ya' never know...
EDIT:
Or maybe I have it the wrong way around? We all wondered all these years why the ongoing fight has been between Shar and Mystryl, when it should be Shar and Selūne. Despite being so prominent 'in the beginning', and insanely relevant to the whole 'light vs darkness' dichotomy we have in FR, Selūne gets barely a mention... as if she's not even really there...
Maybe its really Shar thats nuts, dancing around in her dead sister's clothes... |
| KanzenAU |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 01:23:05
As far as the Moonsea goes, it is still referred to as the Dragon Sea as late as 709 DR in the GHotR. The same source also calls it the Moonsea as early as 329 DR, so I guess there was probably some overlap with different cultures calling it different things.
Does anyone have a date and or any lore around the "Moonsea", and any possible impacts there? I've skimmed the Moonsea sourcebooks and found naught. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 23:10:03
Asgorath myth tells us about him eating the sun. We know it is the same event that ended Batrachi rule and we know that meteorite swarm created Sea of the Fallen Stars from multiple lakes already in the area. It also created Seven Turn Winter - seven years long darkness from ash cloud. I see this "eating of sun" as poetic description of this long period of darkness.
Dragon laser - for me it was a desparate attempt by dragons to stop the Rage from destroying their empires by binding seven lost gods and use their power to break that curse. Sadly it didn't work well and those lost gods broke free. The hills around Westgate are remnant of this ritual. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 16:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont think thats possible.
Im pretty sure the moonsea was around during the 1000 years war between giant and dragon. At that time it was called the dragonsea because of all the dragons around it.
The dragonlaser was a gathering of dragons around -5500 dr on the edgde of westgate.
Still possible. The dragonsea may have been a smaller sea, enlarged after the crash. May be why it got renamed from the dragonsea to the moonsea. |
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