| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 02 Mar 2015 : 08:04:17
It just bugs me.
Given:
1) Hand crossbows have pistol grip. It's not just illustrations, it also ergonomically doesn't make sense not to on a weapon too small for proper stock and/or used in one hand.
2) Hand crossbows are mainly made by the Drow and even pieces carried by someone else often are referred to as drow [hand] crossbows.
3) Elves are explicitly said to have fingers and hands 1.5x as long as humans. Drow are never said to be anatomically different from the rest in this.
Question: how the Pandemonium does one use the trigger group on a weapon with pistol grip designed for someone with hands and fingers 1.5x longer - without using two hands and the process being no less awkward than tying a string to the trigger and pulling it would be? 
And of course, that's average - there are humans with small hands and small demihumans.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Delwa |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 21:51:20
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
I wouldn't say that a more complex mechanism is the only explanation. As Xaeyruudh points out, the smaller design takes more skill to craft. Same reason a well-made pocket watch can cost more than a well made wall clock.
Does it? Especially when routinely produced. The basic version is not clockwork, it's very simple. How much precision do its parts need, beyond not having slack in the wrong places and nut itself being smooth? But a mechanism with return springs, greater leverage for soft trigger pull, etc - to work reliably, it requires every part to fit well.
I think I see what you're going for there. But even when I routinely paint a miniature, it takes more skill and time to paint something small and intricate than it does to do a similar thing with a larger miniature. Much the same idea can be applied to a watch or hand crossbow. You have smaller parts, requiring more delicate placement. The wheel and lever mechanism on my own hand crossbow is a miniature version of larger crossbows. Practice does make it easier to construct, but that ease would be reflected by a higher "skill modifier" if you will. You're quite possibly paying for the skill needed to make something that well, even if it's easy for the craftsman.
If I started a business painting minis, I'm not charging based solely on how hard it is to paint the mini, I'm charging based on how much skill I have. If I'm good enough to call myself a professional, I'm going to charge more for a mini, regardless of how difficult or easy it is to produce it.
I don't know if I'm explaining myself well here, but I hope I conveyed what I'm thinking. 
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| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 20:37:02
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Hand crossbows are smaller and lighter than standard crossbows [...] This makes them easier to carry and conceal, and therefore an attractive option in any scenario calling for stealth or deception.
[...]
Edit: Smaller size also explains higher price, without necessarily depending on a more complex mechanism. It's highly improbable that you'll sneak a crossbow past the guards
True enough, but it's a tiny portion of its usage, and thus demand. It's not going to determine cost.
Drow carry HC routinely, and so do many others (e.g. Neverwinter militia).
quote:
There's also more than just the firing mechanism when it comes to considering a more complicated construction. For example, what if the uh... I don't know the terminology, but the "arms" of the crossbow are hinged and can be closed to make an even smaller package?
Indeed. But in single-shot scenario greater range and penetration and thus stronger bow still would be preferrable. Also, a torsion machine would be both more powerful and already got rotating arms, without any extra joints and hinges.
Either way, there AFAIK are zero references to this being normal for drow hand crossbow. We can assume they got some experiments in this area now and then, but those are too rare to define design of a run-of-the-mill weapon.
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Anyone know the size of a handcrossbow bolt? They would have to be so small that I'd think only a neck or eye hit would be an instant kill.
Short bolt... fin-stabilized (because it's short and slow)... those are also known as darts. 
The enchanted "Bolts of Power" even were explicitly said to be darts fit both for throwing and shooting.
And yes, hand crossbow normally relies on poison - just like a blowgun.
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
With the dart, blowgun, throwing dagger, even the sling, each has the same drawback and reason you'd choose the hand crossbow over the other. The dart, blowgun, sling all depend on the user's strength of arm or breath for range
True. But the downside is that hand crossbow is rather weak.
Also, it depend on the user's strength for reload.
quote:
going off the name, the pneumatic sleeve-gun is something like an air-soft gun that can be hidden up the sleeve. A consideration there would be ease of maintenance.
That was my summary; as written, it's "gas-powered needle-throwers" in context of maximally concealable (to the point of being "worked into clothing") emergency gadgets. Which defines general design: thin pipe with thin bands or wires as safety/trigger, cap on the muzzle - if worn without holster, there can't be more moving parts than necessary. But then it should be reloadable (without a ready source of compressed gas) no faster than a heavy crossbow - if the user already got a special tool of comparable size on hands and next load ready. The whole point of this niche is that everything else is sacrificed for the advantage of surprise - to have at all that one shot.
quote:
I wouldn't say that a more complex mechanism is the only explanation. As Xaeyruudh points out, the smaller design takes more skill to craft. Same reason a well-made pocket watch can cost more than a well made wall clock.
Does it? Especially when routinely produced. The basic version is not clockwork, it's very simple. How much precision do its parts need, beyond not having slack in the wrong places and nut itself being smooth? But a mechanism with return springs, greater leverage for soft trigger pull, etc - to work reliably, it requires every part to fit well. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 16:38:41
Nimble Plate Mail of Silent Moves |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 00:32:53
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Yep! I've not seen all his stuff, but I use a few of his videos to help newbies to tabletop understand the balance between realistic rules and fun rules. I usually see a drop in requests for ways to have Stealthy platemail and a rise in requests for wands of Silence.
Lol players will try to get away with anything. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 23:59:02
Yep! I've not seen all his stuff, but I use a few of his videos to help newbies to tabletop understand the balance between realistic rules and fun rules. I usually see a drop in requests for ways to have Stealthy platemail and a rise in requests for wands of Silence. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 23:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"?
Those are wicked. Not sure how practical they would be in "real life" though.
Not very. Wrist crossbows would be highly impractical one shot wonders. See this video for the details. Incidentally, that guy's channel is very useful if you want to learn a few things about medieval combat. I don't always agree with him, but he provides some good food for thought.
Now, in a world with magic, a heavily enchanted wrist crossbow could overcome the practical hurdles. Add a little poison to that, and you're really talking.
One last note, if you want some more details on crossbows, this video is a good summary.
Ah yes I love that guy! I enjoyed his video making fun of Skyrim's impractical weapons. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 21:14:21
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"?
Those are wicked. Not sure how practical they would be in "real life" though.
Not very. Wrist crossbows would be highly impractical one shot wonders. See this video for the details. Incidentally, that guy's channel is very useful if you want to learn a few things about medieval combat. I don't always agree with him, but he provides some good food for thought.
Now, in a world with magic, a heavily enchanted wrist crossbow could overcome the practical hurdles. Add a little poison to that, and you're really talking.
One last note, if you want some more details on crossbows, this video is a good summary. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 18:16:00
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"?
Those are wicked. Not sure how practical they would be in "real life" though. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 17:51:11
quote:
Sir Krashos
Hand crossbows do bugger all damage but they found their niche in the D&D firmament thanks to the drow - who didn't use them for damage, but rather as a delivery system for their unique sleep poison.
More of an iconic weapon, methinks. Just as a dagger is hardly considered much of a threatening weapon compared to a longsword or battle-axe, but in the hands of a skilled assassin it can be a fearful and serious cause of death. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 17:46:48
Interesting reverse draw xbow. More compact. Not sure of the draw and reload, but I assume it is comparable given the stirrup. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 17:27:32
On a related note, I found this wrist crossbow and this one just the other day at Raymond Swanland's Gallery. Do you think the drow could manufacture something like this or is it too "gear-punk"? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Mar 2015 : 08:25:08
Hand crossbows do bugger all damage but they found their niche in the D&D firmament thanks to the drow - who didn't use them for damage, but rather as a delivery system for their unique sleep poison.
-- Goerge Krashos |
| Delwa |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:51:08
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I kinda don't see the hand crossbow as being a combat weapon. As noted, it's slow. Reloading has to be done after each shot and takes two hands, unless we're talking about "repeating" hand crossbows, which would be a whole new level of impractical.
So melee folks can fire a hand crossbow in the "surprise round" and then close for melee... it gives them an extra attack in some situations. But I don't see any situations where it's going to be appropriate for someone to continue using a hand crossbow beyond the first round of combat... except a pre-4e wizard who's run out of spells, and in that case a bigger crossbow would be more effective. In short, a hand crossbow is best in situations where it can be used to avoid combat.
In my opinion, not only is "sniping" possible with a hand crossbow but it's actually the most valid use for it. The main value of a hand crossbow is in (A) being easily concealed and snuck into places you're not supposed to bring weapons into, (B) firing a poisoned dart at a target you can't walk up to and shank, (C) firing that bolt from a space/position where you don't have room to fire a bow or throw a dart, and (C2) firing that bolt with more force than is possible to achieve with a blowgun dart.
So a bolt fired from a hand crossbow needs to prick the skin, and maybe it has enough force to penetrate soft leather or padded armor, but probably nothing heavier than that. If your target is armored, you're going to be looking for the back of his neck or an exposed armpit or thigh.
I agree for the most part. Depending on a hand crossbow like some people depend on a six-shooter in a wild west gunfight is going to end poorly. What I meant by a combat weapon is that it can penetrate and do damage. Like you said, you'll be aiming for the vitals, but so is a man with a longsword. It's far better for you to make sure you do some damage at least. A glancing blow with a longsword, or a bolt that misses the armpit and hits the leather or plate, is still doing something if it can penetrate the armor. If the bolt is so small that it either hits and kills its target, or it just bounces or harmlessly nicks someone, then I wouldn't want to rely on it, even for sniping. I want my target at least a little hurt before he comes after me.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:47:10
Flight (most range) and Sheaf (most damage) arrows were available in AD&D1E/2E PHB equipment lists, although they only mattered for longbows since bows ("shortbows") always used lesser range and damage figures anyhow. Silver-tipped arrows were also listed. And any arrow could be dipped in poison or (un)holy water for a price.
2E PHBR4: Complete Thieves' Handbook and PHBR8: Complete Elven Handbook contained some other varieties. The more useful being a "stonebiter" arrowhead/grapple attached to a climbing line and a hollow "message arrow" which could deliver a tightly rolled scroll. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:41:58
I kinda don't see the hand crossbow as being a combat weapon. As noted, it's slow. Reloading has to be done after each shot and takes two hands, unless we're talking about "repeating" hand crossbows, which would be a whole new level of impractical.
So melee folks can fire a hand crossbow in the "surprise round" and then close for melee... it gives them an extra attack in some situations. But I don't see any situations where it's going to be appropriate for someone to continue using a hand crossbow beyond the first round of combat... except a pre-4e wizard who's run out of spells, and in that case a bigger crossbow would be more effective. In short, a hand crossbow is best in situations where it can be used to avoid combat.
In my opinion, not only is "sniping" possible with a hand crossbow but it's actually the most valid use for it. The main value of a hand crossbow is in (A) being easily concealed and snuck into places you're not supposed to bring weapons into, (B) firing a poisoned dart at a target you can't walk up to and shank, (C) firing that bolt from a space/position where you don't have room to fire a bow or throw a dart, and (C2) firing that bolt with more force than is possible to achieve with a blowgun dart.
So a bolt fired from a hand crossbow needs to prick the skin, and maybe it has enough force to penetrate soft leather or padded armor, but probably nothing heavier than that. If your target is armored, you're going to be looking for the back of his neck or an exposed armpit or thigh.
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| Delwa |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:23:55
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Back in 1e or 2e, there were multiple different types/styles of arrows. The most common were flight arrows and (iirc) sheaf arrows. Flight arrows had a longer range, sheaf arrows caused more damage. Then there were leaf head arrows, frog (?) arrows and a few others, for various purposes.
I thought that was awesome, and I can see having similar differentiation for bolts.
Yes. You also have different types of heads for differing purposes. A head with a more sleek design is intended to go straight through a target, while a head designed to merely penetrate might have barbs to make it cause more damage if it is pulled out or pushed through. Heavier or stronger woods for the shaft make a bolt more durable, as well, and increase your chances of recovery. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:19:11
Back in 1e or 2e, there were multiple different types/styles of arrows. The most common were flight arrows and (iirc) sheaf arrows. Flight arrows had a longer range, sheaf arrows caused more damage. Then there were leaf head arrows, frog (?) arrows and a few others, for various purposes.
I thought that was awesome, and I can see having similar differentiation for bolts. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 20:06:15
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I agree with Delwa that a small increase in length won't necessarily make it unworkable, but I think the size difference between a hand crossbow and a standard crossbow makes the bolts from one useless with the other.
If the bolt is longer than the groove it sits in, the greater the difference between those lengths, the less precision the bolt can be fired with. The greater the mass of the bolt, the shorter the range will be, given that there's a limit to how much force the firing mechanism can exert on it.
Same idea with arrows... it's possible to fire a longspear from a shortbow (assuming you have the strength to hold both) but the accuracy and range (and force of impact) are going to be terrible.
On the other hand, extremely short/light bolts wouldn't work well either. There has to be a "happy medium" for each design.
Most definitely agreed. That noted, I took a measuring tape to my hand crossbow. The maximum total length that can be loaded without extending over the end of the bow is six inches. It's also about the same length of my friend's hand crossbow with a pistol grip, and the bolts for that were about six inches as well.
If I had to speculate, being a combat weapon, I would imagine that the size of the hand crossbow is somewhat determined by the effective length of the bolt. If, as is being pointed out, the hand crossbow were too small to be effective at anything other than target practice (that is, can it pierce vital organs without aiming for the neck or eye) then it would not be even offered as a combat weapon. Adventurers would avoid it because it's more a curiosity, something for a sporting noble to play with, but not a weapon of war.
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 19:58:16
I agree with Delwa that a small increase in length won't necessarily make it unworkable, but I think the size difference between a hand crossbow and a standard crossbow makes the bolts from one useless with the other.
If the bolt is longer than the groove it sits in, the greater the difference between those lengths, the less precision the bolt can be fired with. The greater the mass of the bolt, the shorter the range will be, given that there's a limit to how much force the firing mechanism can exert on it.
Same idea with arrows... it's possible to fire a longspear from a shortbow (assuming you have the strength to hold both) but the accuracy and range (and force of impact) are going to be terrible.
On the other hand, extremely short/light bolts wouldn't work well either. There has to be a "happy medium" for each design. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 18:00:48
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It clearly should follow a smaller crossbow, i.e. hand crossbow that the bolt would be shorter.
Oh, I don't disagree, in general. But it doesn't rule out a longer bolt, either. There's nothing obstructing a bolt that sticks out a few inches beyond the end of the crossbow. You could conceivably release a longer bolt, if it were needed. Nothing too ridiculous, mind. You're not launching an arrow from a hand crossbow, but if you've got a hand crossbow that comfortably fits a bolt of 4-5 inches, a bolt 6 inches long isn't going to be impossible to throw. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 16:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Anyone know the size of a handcrossbow bolt? They would have to be so small that I'd think only a neck or eye hit would be an instant kill.
To the best of my knowledge, there wasn't a "standard" size, per se. It varied, depending on the purpose and maker. But bolts were typically shorter than an arrow.
Well in my searching for more data, modern bolts normally are between quote:
Most crossbow bolts are 16#8243; to 22#8243; in length, with the average being 20 inches.
Source: http://www.bestcrossbowsource.com/crossbow-bolts-arrows-guide/
It clearly should follow a smaller crossbow, i.e. hand crossbow that the bolt would be shorter. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 16:35:20
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Anyone know the size of a handcrossbow bolt? They would have to be so small that I'd think only a neck or eye hit would be an instant kill.
To the best of my knowledge, there wasn't a "standard" size, per se. It varied, depending on the purpose and maker. But bolts were typically shorter than an arrow. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 16:26:36
You make some good, interesting points. Here are my further thoughts.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Different usage of a hand crossbow is the main prerequisite for its very existence. It's a simple aposteriori consideration: someone made a weapon of inferior strength and range, more complex and expensive compared to a light crossbow - and this worked well enough that there's demand. Hence, those qualities are acceptable trade-offs to its advantages in the niche(s) where it's used.
Which allows us to backtrack those niches, via comparison with known competing solutions: find areas where either light crossbow, blowgun or hand-thrown dart (for the drow, also pneumatic sleeve-gun - FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark) isn't clearly better than a hand crossbow, and situation where these parameters matter more than drawbacks.
With the dart, blowgun, throwing dagger, even the sling, each has the same drawback and reason you'd choose the hand crossbow over the other. The dart, blowgun, sling all depend on the user's strength of arm or breath for range (not use, but range.) Someone that's got a good eye for aim, but less strength would choose the hand crossbow because he doesn't need to move to release a projectile or blow forcibly into a pipe. I don't have Drow of the Underdark (yet), but just going off the name, the pneumatic sleeve-gun is something like an air-soft gun that can be hidden up the sleeve. A consideration there would be ease of maintenance. The air-soft guns I've seen would be a bit more difficult to maintain than a simple hand crossbow, and didn't have the length of life with repeated use that a hand crossbow has. Friend of mine plays with air-soft guns fairly often (I don't, for some illogical reason I don't mind having a wooden practice sword swung at my head, but I'm not at all comfortable with being shot at.) and he's constantly having to deal with small malfunctions, jams, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Therefore my original question doesn't apply to those specific mentions of hand crossbows, right?
If, for example, a halfling living in Neverwinter carries a non-magical hand crossbow, the reasonable assumption would be that he got the piece made to order in a local mechanical workshop that churns them out for local militia - what's with clockwork being one of main exports - so it was fit to hand then and there, and that's it, until proven otherwise.
If (also for example) a halfling got specialization in "the drow hand crossbow" (Grey Box), this raises the question of how he uses it.
Ok, I did misunderstand here. I've often heard the terms "Drow Hand Crossbow" and "Hand Crossbow" used interchangeably. I assumed you were doing the same here.
It does make some sense that the Drow would design their hand crossbows to be different enough that they would be unmanageable by other races. Particularly with the consideration that a renegade slave might try to acquire one and use it against them.
Hand crossbows in general, however, well, see this discussion. [:-)]
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
And that's why the most obvious way to speed it up is reducing this to:
1. Pull the string until it enters the nut and pushes it back, at which point the mechanism locks it.
2. Put a dart into the trough.
Which is how it's going to work with spring-reset trigger mechanism and pistol handle. Not unlike a single-action nerf gun, only with bow. 
"A more complex mechanism" remains the only explanation here for higher price of a hand crossbow. It's not clear why it would be worth this if it didn't improve performance, but it needs other changes to do so. It's also not obvious what characteristics other than reload time and ergonomics could possibly be improved at all for a hand crossbow with its weak pull. Thus, the most likely answer is the above.
I wouldn't say it's speeding up the process, it's just a different process. I've used a more modern hand crossbow with a pistol grip and a slide that you pull back to set the string. You have to really brace the weapon to pull the slide back and set it properly. I can set the wheel and lever on my simple hand crossbow with a single action by pushing the lever down with my fingers and setting the wheel with my thumb simultaneously, and then set the string and place the dart with another single motion and aim.
Assuming the same pull weight on the bow, a friend of mine who owned the pistol grip hand crossbow can set his string, place a bolt, and aim in about the same time as I can with my more mundane hand crossbow. At this point, it's more the Strength and skill of the user than it is the device itself. The real advantage I see to having a mechanical means of setting the bow string is you can have a higher draw weight on the string without requiring the user to be stronger, thus increasing the penetrating power of the projectile and the range.
Now, if you can design a hand crossbow that sets itself, you're talking business and cooking with gas.
I wouldn't say that a more complex mechanism is the only explanation. As Xaeyruudh points out, the smaller design takes more skill to craft. Same reason a well-made pocket watch can cost more than a well made wall clock. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 15:59:26
Well some current bolts appear about 6 inches long. Still looking for something closer to when first used. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 15:40:58
Anyone know the size of a handcrossbow bolt? They would have to be so small that I'd think only a neck or eye hit would be an instant kill. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 05:49:23
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Crossbows, hand or no, are historically slow. Their best use is for a single, well aimed shot.
Yes. And a bigger crossbow does this better. Even if the user relies more on the poison, there's a matter of range.
Conclusion: hand crossbow is not carried for sniping.
Hrm. Hand crossbows are smaller and lighter than standard crossbows, and the bolts are also smaller and lighter. This makes them easier to carry and conceal, and therefore an attractive option in any scenario calling for stealth or deception. The range issue is valid, but sniping (aka "one shot, one kill") is still on the menu.
Edit: Smaller size also explains higher price, without necessarily depending on a more complex mechanism. It's highly improbable that you'll sneak a crossbow past the guards at the gate without using magic, but a hand crossbow small enough to be "holstered" inside a wide pant leg... that's actually pretty likely, especially if you look like the honorable sort who wouldn't resort to such underhanded techniques. Dishonorable sorts have a lot of coin to spend on concealable weapons.
There's also more than just the firing mechanism when it comes to considering a more complicated construction. For example, what if the uh... I don't know the terminology, but the "arms" of the crossbow are hinged and can be closed to make an even smaller package? It's fairly simple to brace/lock the arms open when you're ready to fire, so the detriment to range would be minimal, and really... as long as it will fire a dart 20-30 feet it's suitable for an assassin's purposes. Anything beyond that is just silly bragging... everyone knows the true measure of an assassin lies in how close he can get without his target knowing that death approaches. The only reason to even have a crossbow is for those rare scenarios where a dagger won't work.  |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Mar 2015 : 04:36:54
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I just meant that the standard stock could be trimmed down to where it would provide stability by laying against the forearm rather than interfering with aim by being bulbous like a traditional rifle stock.
You describe bullpup configuration.
Which is yet another "valid in its own niche" option, but:
1) Needs a handle set even closer to perpendicular. Because the range of acceptable wrist angles is more constrained.
2) Needs measures to prevent string snagging, especially when used by people fond of silken cloaks. Either the string high above the handle (which works better for full sized crossbows) or solid screen under the string.
Making a piece noticeably bullpup-ier than shotguns with pistol handle and stock or typical modern crossbows design would be useful mostly in [more] forward-heavy designs, especially ones intended to be useable from hip. Like piston flamethrowers (needs a lamp for reliable pilot flame) or torsion machines ("mini-ballista"), depending on mechanism design.
For a pistol sized weapon... it would probably interfere with movements while snap shooting, while advantages aren't clear.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
How much of an innovation it is to fit the angle of bend convenient for the specific movements of an intended user?
Well, it's easy to look back and say "that's an easy tweak." Both the different usage and the tweak had to occur to someone with the dissatisfaction, motivation, and engineering ability to accomplish it.
Accomplishment of increasing the handle's angle is minimal: it's reachable from the basic design incrementally via common "fit to the customer" process.
The specific niche of hand crossbow only adds more incentives to do more extreme modifications and removes incentives to avoid it.
Different usage of a hand crossbow is the main prerequisite for its very existence. It's a simple aposteriori consideration: someone made a weapon of inferior strength and range, more complex and expensive compared to a light crossbow - and this worked well enough that there's demand. Hence, those qualities are acceptable trade-offs to its advantages in the niche(s) where it's used.
Which allows us to backtrack those niches, via comparison with known competing solutions: find areas where either light crossbow, blowgun or hand-thrown dart (for the drow, also pneumatic sleeve-gun - FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark) isn't clearly better than a hand crossbow, and situation where these parameters matter more than drawbacks.
quote:
In our world, such coincidences have sometimes taken centuries to happen.
I can remember only one example of a no-brainer that failed to appear for decades: gangway mechanization on steamers (Life on the Mississippi) - but this at least required actually adding and rearranging components of a ship, rather than linear adjustment of something that's already here and then replacing some parts with ones that work better in the new geometry.
quote:
I don't have any specific real-world examples, but I'm sure someone who paid more attention in history classes will.
History classes? Tease. Anticipation builds up.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
...using materials and design solutions different enough that the result will be rather obviously not of the same make?
My problem here is exactly with the cases of this weapon being called "drow hand crossbow" when used by others.
[...] 1. It's just "hand crossbow" in the weapons table on page 117 of the 3.5 PH, and in the picture on pg 118, and in the text description on pg 115... no mention of drow.
Therefore my original question doesn't apply to those specific mentions of hand crossbows, right?
If, for example, a halfling living in Neverwinter carries a non-magical hand crossbow, the reasonable assumption would be that he got the piece made to order in a local mechanical workshop that churns them out for local militia - what's with clockwork being one of main exports - so it was fit to hand then and there, and that's it, until proven otherwise.
If (also for example) a halfling got specialization in "the drow hand crossbow" (Grey Box), this raises the question of how he uses it.
quote:
When someone sees a weapon they like, but which is sized or shaped wrong... if they have the motivation and means to make a version for themselves, they do it.
Re-engineering a drow hand crossbow for use by humans, for instance, is just a matter of sizing the grip and spacing the trigger properly.
My point exactly. 
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
I'm still not sure I'm following. If you're looking to fire rapidly, a crossbow, even a hand crossbow, is not the way to go.
So it got to have advantages over a thrown dart and blowgun.
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The way I've always read Drow hand crossbows is their primary use is to deliver a potent poison to the target.
Yes. So does a thrown dart, blowgun, etc.
So the question #0 is when someone would choose a hand crossbow, given the alternatives.
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Crossbows, hand or no, are historically slow. Their best use is for a single, well aimed shot.
Yes. And a bigger crossbow does this better. Even if the user relies more on the poison, there's a matter of range.
Conclusion: hand crossbow is not carried for sniping.
quote:
They are much more quiet than a pistol, have good range compared to a throwing dart or dagger, and are easier to aim for your average joe when compared to a bow, dagger, or dart.
Pistols don't even enter the competition. Given that SJ wheel lock pistol is comparable to light crossbow, at best.
Hand crossbow is rarely carried by "average joe", with exception of home defense. And the drow, whose designs are discussed, usually are not average joes.
quote:
On my hand crossbow, I turn the wheel back and push the lever down to lock the wheel in place. Then, I pull the string back and set it, placing a dart in the trough, aim by bracing the stock against my forearm, and press the trigger.
And that's why the most obvious way to speed it up is reducing this to:
1. Pull the string until it enters the nut and pushes it back, at which point the mechanism locks it.
2. Put a dart into the trough.
Which is how it's going to work with spring-reset trigger mechanism and pistol handle. Not unlike a single-action nerf gun, only with bow.
"A more complex mechanism" remains the only explanation here for higher price of a hand crossbow. It's not clear why it would be worth this if it didn't improve performance, but it needs other changes to do so. It's also not obvious what characteristics other than reload time and ergonomics could possibly be improved at all for a hand crossbow with its weak pull. Thus, the most likely answer is the above. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 15:54:00
I'm still not sure I'm following. If you're looking to fire rapidly, a crossbow, even a hand crossbow, is not the way to go. Regardless of the mechanical method, you still have to draw back and set the bow string, load a bolt, aim, and release.
Even a repeating crossbow is going to be slow compared to the time it takes a foe to cross ground to your position and engage you in melee.
The way I've always read Drow hand crossbows is their primary use is to deliver a potent poison to the target.
Crossbows, hand or no, are historically slow. Their best use is for a single, well aimed shot. They are much more quiet than a pistol, have good range compared to a throwing dart or dagger, and are easier to aim for your average joe when compared to a bow, dagger, or dart.
The bike brake design is fairly simple to use with practice. On my hand crossbow, I turn the wheel back and push the lever down to lock the wheel in place. Then, I pull the string back and set it, placing a dart in the trough, aim by bracing the stock against my forearm, and press the trigger. The trigger takes very little pressure to release, in fact setting the crossbow on the floor would probably set it off if you aren't careful when you set it down. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 15:18:21
More good points, but I'm not caving yet.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
This seems to describe either bracer mount (which would be viable options, if not without disadvantages) or fist mount a la climbing claws (which also strongly depends on the hand shape).
Either way, not what "hand crossbow" is supposed to be.
Sorry, I was unclear, but this brings up another tangent. bracer/fist mounts seem like very "drow" innovations to me, and I hadn't considered them before. I agree that they're not hand crossbows, but I think I might like them better. But that wasn't what I meant... I just meant that the standard stock could be trimmed down to where it would provide stability by laying against the forearm rather than interfering with aim by being bulbous like a traditional rifle stock.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
How much of an innovation it is to fit the angle of bend convenient for the specific movements of an intended user?
Well, it's easy to look back and say "that's an easy tweak." Both the different usage and the tweak had to occur to someone with the dissatisfaction, motivation, and engineering ability to accomplish it. In our world, such coincidences have sometimes taken centuries to happen. Some changes catch on and become widespread, many live only as long as their creator and then wait to be accomplished again. I don't have any specific real-world examples, but I'm sure someone who paid more attention in history classes will.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
...using materials and design solutions different enough that the result will be rather obviously not of the same make?
My problem here is exactly with the cases of this weapon being called "drow hand crossbow" when used by others.
The drow part is exactly what I think you're putting too much confidence in.
1. It's just "hand crossbow" in the weapons table on page 117 of the 3.5 PH, and in the picture on pg 118, and in the text description on pg 115... no mention of drow.
2. I guarantee there are dwarves somewhere who are wielding double axes, in spite of the double axe being identified as orc double axe in the PH. On the flipside, there are definitely orcs wielding "dwarven" waraxes and urgroshes. For that matter, urgrosh sounds to me like an orcish name, not a dwarven one.
3. If hand crossbows were being made only by drow, how could this weapon logically appear in the PH? Likewise orcish double axes? Their presence in the PH means that they are available to PCs of any race, limited only by what sorts of weapons their local smithy produces. A PC in Waterdeep can get a hand crossbow, or a double axe, or an urgrosh.
When someone sees a weapon they like, but which is sized or shaped wrong... if they have the motivation and means to make a version for themselves, they do it. Re-engineering a drow hand crossbow for use by humans, for instance, is just a matter of sizing the grip and spacing the trigger properly. Some people still think of it as a drow weapon, for reasons mentioned in an earlier post, but so what? In the case of the "dwarven" waraxe, it's still thought of as a dwarven weapon, due to some combination of dwarves coming up with the design first and more dwarves using them than any other race, but that ultimately means nothing.
In my opinion. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Mar 2015 : 07:31:53
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I can see your points but I reject some of the premises.
Those always need looking-into, too.
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1. I think it would work fine to use a modified version of standard crossbow stocks. Cut the stock in half and hollow it out a bit, so that it cradles/grips the forearm.
This seems to describe either bracer mount (which would be viable options, if not without disadvantages) or fist mount a la climbing claws (which also strongly depends on the hand shape).
Either way, not what "hand crossbow" is supposed to be.
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and I see no reason why the pistol grip would have been invented just for small crossbows when a serviceable stock design already existed. I think the pistol grip started as artistic license/laziness, and other artists haven't bothered to fix it.
How much of an innovation it is to fit the angle of bend convenient for the specific movements of an intended user?
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3. Regardless of who invented it, different races will manufacture it with their own needs in mind. A halfling might have trouble using a hand crossbow which was built for elves, but a halfling who wants one bad enough can make his own.
...using materials and design solutions different enough that the result will be rather obviously not of the same make?
My problem here is exactly with the cases of this weapon being called "drow hand crossbow" when used by others.
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Short fingers really don't factor in much with most types of crossbow triggers.
Common crossbow designs, yes. But there's a difference. My assumptions are:
1) Hand crossbow's primary purpose is short-range snap shooting at mobile targets and quick reload, as opposed to sparse sighted shooting normal for full-sized crossbows. Those who plan to snipe can jolly well get a stronger weapon - and it will be cheaper, too.
2) Drow have precise mechanics advanced more than enough to make triggers that don't have such hard pull they need a "bike brake" style lever to operate without jostling the whole weapon - especially for relatively weak hand crossbow. What's with those artificial limbs and pneumatic holdouts. And even before drow are involved, the greater cost have to reflect mostly a more complex and compact trigger mechanism - everything else there is just smaller and weaker than in a heavy crossbow.
3) I'm not a crossbow expert, but... It's all about ergonomics.
3.1) The "bike brake" design doesn't look conducive to quick reload, even with better mechanism: shooter have to apply force to the weapon and hold it by the trigger at the same time - or change grip back and forth.
3.2) Conversely, bending handle at a greater angle makes the "apply force" part easier.
3.3) Holding any weapon at too obtuse an angle is not very convenient for quick pointing at anything. While semi-auto pistols with magazine in handle are different, it's the main factor determining the form of revolver handles and e.g. Mauser "Broomhandle". The empirical data we have is: many, many variation of the same simple shapes through the centuries.
How objects are used is what defines ergonomics.
The early pistols tended toward an intermediate slanted/hooked shape - though due to reload time and elements like pan, those were used more as sawn-off muskets/carbines than snap shooting weapons.
Now, a "proper" crossbow is bulky and slow enough to be used like a carbine, but hand crossbow is not - it's both short-ranged and relatively quick to reload.
quote:
and the hand crossbow designs pictured aren't any trouble for people with varying finger lengths to use.
Obviously. But that's just a working copy of larger crossbows before anyone started to optimize it for very different usage.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The pistol handle was designed to help user hold the weapon against recoil, much like the stock of a rifle is designed to handle recoil of a bullet fired.
1) Not only recoil, but the force applied while arming the bow. Which applies to the weak hand crossbow and pump action firearms, but not to crossbows with reloading mechanisms nor muzzle-loaded firearms - and in those cases the shooter won't want to mantain the grip.
1.1) Conversely, if a crossbow is used with the goat's foot, the force is applied perpendicular to its stock, which makes a more obtuse angle more convenient - for the same reason.
2) It's as much or more about quickly pointing the business end at the target. The pieces with negligible recoil (BB guns) or no recoil (light guns) don't leave the same comfort zone. No matter how "futuristic" look manufacturers may want, in the end the handle is shaped for the hand and any silly-looking random gubbinz invariably end up added to the parts where the user won't have to touch them.
As in, not even trekkies actually want to use something shaped like a shaver to try and shoot stuff. One needs to be noticeably less humanoid than "rubber forehead" for that.  |
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