| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 14:00:49
Been having a few thoughts about the wychlaran.
Their mysterious arrival where they announced themselves to the Rashemmi in 108 DR right under the nose of Eltab who was ruling the country at the time.
The fact that the Rashemmi agreed to be ruled by them because of their prowess at fighting both the Raumathar and Narfell Empires.
That they were seemingly able to create the only weapon known to be capable of injuring Eltab, at the time a powerful demon lord. Surely such magic would require intimate knowledge of his nature, perhaps even his true name.
Their supposed Raumviran racial stock.
Their mastery of elemental and spirit magic.
Who were the wychlaran, where did they come from |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 23:24:25
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In my completely homebrew world, hags are female giants: they can change one size category per day, at will. More powerful ones can do it more often using their other magic. When they mate with giants they give birth to giants - the females they keep, the baby giants they give to the Giant clans (and MY giants are more along the lines of Gloranthan giants - they are born one type, and continue to grow and getting more intelligent as they age. Starting out as Hill Giants, they then choose a 'path' - usually elemental, but not necessarily. They tend to follow the same path as the rest of their clan, but that is not 'set in stone').
When hags mate with other species, they create other 'things' - the Hagspawn being merely one type. When Hagspawn breed with human (and other) females they create ogres. For my D&D-related musings, I went an entirely different route (because I had to work-in the proto-ogres - Irda - of Krynn).
like I said, all homebrew. I don't like 'races appearing out of nowhere', so everything on my world is inter-related.
The Hags of the setting I am running (NOT my homebrew - the amalgam world I put together) stay truer to D&D, except that I embrace the concept that evil people can become fiends when they die, so some witches are working toward a hag-apotheosis (become a native outsider). You can also become any type of outsider - its best to work toward this end before you die, lest you wind-up on the 'bottom of the ladder' in whatever afterlife you've earned. Thus, a 'good witch' could turn into a 'fairy godmother' type of archon or some-such.
Hmmmm, I'm not big on human-hag breeding causing ogres. However, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that some variant ogre-magi come from the interbreeding of ogres in the area with hags. It may be that where the hags live, ogres are allowed to survive as long as they work to defend Rashemen without entering human areas.
Also, I was just discussing the idea that the witches may swap their male failures to the hags. Prior to sacrificing them, perhaps the hags force breed with these males (and thus the hagspawn in Rashemi society). That's something I hadn't really thought about. The males may not even realize they're mating with hags, as the hags may glamour themselves to look like a beautiful female. The witches may encourage the standard Rashemi to accept these hagspawn into their own societies, as "ranger" type hunters who patrol the borders protecting the communities. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 23:13:10
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Because of the existence of Hagspawn, I'd like to think that the Witches do in fact have some relation to the Hags of the area.
Even "good" nations have secret weapons that are vile and horrible to behold...so there could be ancient pacts that allow for the Hags living in the area and being left alone by the witches in return for secrets that were once (or still are) shared.
Hags/Witches are sweet together. 
I absolutely agree here. I mentioned above that some sects of the witches may worship Cegilune. These sects make perfect sense that they may have learned their magics from hags and that they may continue to work with hags. I could easily see something where these witches, if they catch a male who refuses to become a vremyonni (or who otherwise fails out) decides to sacrifice the male to Cegilune or turn his soul into a larvae. They may also maintain ties to the night hags. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 15:28:34
In my completely homebrew world, hags are female giants: they can change one size category per day, at will. More powerful ones can do it more often using their other magic. When they mate with giants they give birth to giants - the females they keep, the baby giants they give to the Giant clans (and MY giants are more along the lines of Gloranthan giants - they are born one type, and continue to grow and getting more intelligent as they age. Starting out as Hill Giants, they then choose a 'path' - usually elemental, but not necessarily. They tend to follow the same path as the rest of their clan, but that is not 'set in stone').
When hags mate with other species, they create other 'things' - the Hagspawn being merely one type. When Hagspawn breed with human (and other) females they create ogres. For my D&D-related musings, I went an entirely different route (because I had to work-in the proto-ogres - Irda - of Krynn).
like I said, all homebrew. I don't like 'races appearing out of nowhere', so everything on my world is inter-related.
The Hags of the setting I am running (NOT my homebrew - the amalgam world I put together) stay truer to D&D, except that I embrace the concept that evil people can become fiends when they die, so some witches are working toward a hag-apotheosis (become a native outsider). You can also become any type of outsider - its best to work toward this end before you die, lest you wind-up on the 'bottom of the ladder' in whatever afterlife you've earned. Thus, a 'good witch' could turn into a 'fairy godmother' type of archon or some-such. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Nov 2014 : 00:23:27
Because of the existence of Hagspawn, I'd like to think that the Witches do in fact have some relation to the Hags of the area.
Even "good" nations have secret weapons that are vile and horrible to behold...so there could be ancient pacts that allow for the Hags living in the area and being left alone by the witches in return for secrets that were once (or still are) shared.
Hags/Witches are sweet together. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Nov 2014 : 23:20:21
Well, yeah - I was just trying to keep it simple. I seem to have a lot of trouble with that lately. 
I do not actually believe in 'good' & 'evil' as absolutes, because what they are is determined by religion and tradition (mores). I also don't use D&D's planer structure - I have a lot more leeway where alignments are concerned (so mine is both simplified, and yet more complicated - that whole 'shades of grey' thing you mentioned).
I think what I did is divide them along two main branches of philosophy - 'the ends justifies the means', and 'the end does NOT justify the means', basically, with a very broad interpretation by individuals of both sides. The third group I think was just those who refused to take sides, IIRC (still not even sure if I decided to do that - its been awhile since I worked on that region).
I edited (corrected) my above post - I meant 'Raumathari arcano-tech', NOT Rashemi.
I also borrow a lot form elsewhere - some of those other works of fiction I mentioned in an earlier post. The witches like to place 'advisers' with rulers all over the place, and they do not want common folk to be aware of their schism, so folks who have these councilors aren't even sure of which faction their adviser is from (or even the fact there are factions amongst the witches).
And then there are the 'lone wolfs' - those witches who just can't get along with anybody and go their own way. Every country has them. Rather then their ultimate goal becoming liches (like some Mages), their's is usually to become some type of Hag.
My Red Wizards have a different history. Very loosely based on the canon FR one, but with enough significant changes to make them different then the atypical 'ebil Red Wizard'. I completely ditched the whole 'Thaymart' concept - they are more like Clark Ashton Smith's Necromancers; a varied group of greedy, grasping powerful mages, each with their own agenda. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 19:45:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I love this topic. 
I blended the Rashemi lore with that of Irrisen (of Golarion/PF), making them 'a house divided' in my Amalgam setting. Its a great fit (both are regions where Baba Yaga 'does her thang'), and the 'good witches' vs 'bad witches' is an old and great trope. I think I also created a third, neutral group, but I can't recall. I may have to look over my notes. There must have been a reason why I needed them. Anyhow, Irrisen is great if you want a 'bad witch' region and do a whole 'Hathran vs Durthan' thing.
Also, Steven Schend's Iobaria material (in Varnhold Vanishing, part of the Kingmaker AP) makes a great replacement for north-eastern Narfell (I merged the two - it was easy, because we have almost nothing on Narfell) Lower/western Narfell I merged with Numeria (which is in that position in Golarion as well). I don't really like Numeria, but with some tweaking I made it worked (the psuedo-science became Rashemi acrcano-tech).
So basically, I took a rather under-developed region (Narfell, Rashemen, and the endless wastes between Narfell and Yal Tengri) and replaced/merged them with their Golarion counterparts, mostly so I can use all their AP's, but also because having MORE lore is never a bad thing.
The big thing I see is not to make it 2 sects. Not just good versus bad. That's too simple. You say you made a neutral group. Rather than dividing along alignment lines, it would be better for us to divide along viewpoint lines. For instance, maybe some of the witches will only turn males who refuse to become vremyonni, and they see this as a noble way of protecting their country (so for instance, if a male refuses to become an old one, they seek to put him somewhere where his magical skills can aid the country....like putting his spirit into a construct that they can control...). Is this evil? In some viewpoints, this is no more so than a country that conscripts its youths into the army and sends them off to battle. However, some would consider this slavery and a definite evil. Meanwhile, some other wychlaran are just blatantly after personal power, and they might drain said youth of his power just to enhance the local ley lines.... but they release him after wiping his memories of his time in the school. Is this evil? Again, some people would react one way, and others might react another. In the end, the youth is released with his free will, he just isn't allowed to have access to magic if its not in accordance with the viewpoint of the witches. Meanwhile, those witches are using his magical skill for their own personal power.
In the end, the point is to make "shades of grey" for these witches. You already have the red wizards for the "blatantly evil" spellcasters in the area. The Rashemi should be something where even their own people aren't quite sure if what they're doing is right, but they trust them because the witches have protected them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 15:43:12
I love this topic.
I blended the Rashemi lore with that of Irrisen (of Golarion/PF), making them 'a house divided' in my Amalgam setting. Its a great fit (both are regions where Baba Yaga 'does her thang'), and the 'good witches' vs 'bad witches' is an old and great trope. I think I also created a third, neutral group, but I can't recall. I may have to look over my notes. There must have been a reason why I needed them. Anyhow, Irrisen is great if you want a 'bad witch' region and do a whole 'Hathran vs Durthan' thing.
Also, Steven Schend's Iobaria material (in Varnhold Vanishing, part of the Kingmaker AP) makes a great replacement for north-eastern Narfell (I merged the two - it was easy, because we have almost nothing on Narfell) Lower/western Narfell I merged with Numeria (which is in that position in Golarion as well). I don't really like Numeria, but with some tweaking I made it worked (the psuedo-science became Raumathari acrcano-tech).
So basically, I took a rather under-developed region (Narfell, Rashemen, and the endless wastes between Narfell and Yal Tengri) and replaced/merged them with their Golarion counterparts, mostly so I can use all their AP's, but also because having MORE lore is never a bad thing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 15:11:23
Oh, and on the idea that there is a secret sub-sect of the wychlaran that the "good" wychlaran aren't aware of. I recommend against this. The PEOPLE of Rashemen may be unaware of the differing sects and the power struggle amongst the wychlaran. However, the wychlaran themselves should know of the various sub-sects. They just don't tell the common populace that SOME of the male children who are taken become something other than vremyonni...... because they don't tell the common populace ANYTHING about what happens to the male children that they take. So, they aren't lying. It may be that there is a constant struggle between the factions to find children of power and adopt them into "the fold". It may even be that there's something akin to a "Hogwart's School" deep in the Urlingwood where all young children are supposed to be brought and where they eventually sort themselves into a wychlaran sect as they grow into their power (though some of the evil wychlaran may surreptitiously take the occasional male child for the aforementioned rites I threw out before). I should also note that those male children who choose to not become vremyonni are RUMORED to be forced out of Rashemen (and I would assume that becoming a vremyonni comes with some kind of powerful binding magical geas). It may very well be that those that ESCAPE the hunting parties of evil covens who would use his soul and/or magical abilities to further the protection of Rashemen are allowed to live (and this may be an agreed upon thing between the good and evil witches as a means to keep the peace). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 14:56:00
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well i was mulling over the idea of making the witches of Rashemen evil. They are pretty tyrannical when they want to be, they kidnap children and enrol them in their cult, they force males to live in isolation working as slaves for them, they kill anyone that disobeys them and trespasses on their secret holdings, they manipulate the society of Rashemen to keep themselves in power.
They arent nice people. So i was thinking they have a deep dark secret. The head of the order is 200 years old, very powerful and becoming vain so perhaps she has thrown her lot in with some dark patron.
I was thinking of linking them to a demon patron anyway since everyone appears to have been involved with demons in them days in that region. That way we could make the Durthans a good group but using evil methods (i.e. they recognise the threat of the taint spread by the witches and so they use fire and other elemental magics to erase that taint).
In fact the whole dangerous spirit thing of Rashemen could be down to the witches themselves. Maybe their taint or actions are angering the spirits and causing them to go wild and so they create a justification for their own existence by causing the spirits to become angry so that they are then needed to calm them into submission.
And then again perhaps i could just weave that into a secret sub-sect of the wychlaran that the membership isnt aware of.
I can definitely go along with the idea that some sects of the wychlaran are evil (in fact, I prefer this). The wording of that is important. On the whole, I believe that up to 2/3 of the wychlarans who survive into modern times are "good" in some form or another. I also believe that up to a 1/3 of the wychlaran are NOT good, and this faction tends to protect Rashemen to protect themselves, and they're allowed to guide/rule the people only because they have Rashemen's protection in mind.
Personally, in regards the Old Ones/vremyonni.... maybe its something like this.... the good witches and the bad witches met. The bad witches said they didn't want men in power again. They wanted to sacrifice the men in rituals to grow their own power. The good witches disagreed and decided to take the men and train them to be vremyonni. Meanwhile, secretly, the evil witches often take male children of magical power and perform certain rites with them (perhaps they use a rite which transfers their magical ability to a child of theirs who is not magically gifted, perhaps they transfer the childs magical power into the earth creating powerful ley lines, perhaps they use the child's soul to create powerful telthors from magical beasts that are then bound to protect Rashemen's borders, and perhaps they trade the souls of these children to hags in return for items of great power to protect Rashemen).
I would STRONGLY recommend staying away from a demon or devil taint with them however. Its too cliche', and it definitely doesn't fit with how much they hated Narfell. If anything, some of them may be akin to warlocks (but called witches), but they draw their power from an Archfey source that's not well liked. For instance, the Durthan's with their power over cold may well have called upon the Frost Sprite Queen, Aurilandur (aka Auril), who is also the Unseelie Queen of Air and Darkness. Other witches may have called upon the Hag Queen, Cegilune, who is a goddess of both magic and the moon (though she draws upon the magic of the full moon... not the new moon like Shar). Others might call upon the Stag King, or various aspects of Ulutiu / Uthgardt / Rillifane in their beast totems, or perhaps lesser Archfey or even beings such as Leira(who may be an Archfey). Personally, I'd like a faction of these "witches" who are spirit binders, calling upon "vestiges" who are spirit beings at different times MORE than warlocks who are patrons of one being only. I'd really like it if there's a lot of fey spirits/vestiges that they end up calling upon for power (with the idea that not all vestiges are trapped away in some hidden plane as presented in ToM.... some may just allow people to draw upon their essence to increase their knowledge of what's happening in the world or to experience the world through a mortal) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 09:36:00
Well i was mulling over the idea of making the witches of Rashemen evil. They are pretty tyrannical when they want to be, they kidnap children and enrol them in their cult, they force males to live in isolation working as slaves for them, they kill anyone that disobeys them and trespasses on their secret holdings, they manipulate the society of Rashemen to keep themselves in power.
They arent nice people. So i was thinking they have a deep dark secret. The head of the order is 200 years old, very powerful and becoming vain so perhaps she has thrown her lot in with some dark patron.
I was thinking of linking them to a demon patron anyway since everyone appears to have been involved with demons in them days in that region. That way we could make the Durthans a good group but using evil methods (i.e. they recognise the threat of the taint spread by the witches and so they use fire and other elemental magics to erase that taint).
In fact the whole dangerous spirit thing of Rashemen could be down to the witches themselves. Maybe their taint or actions are angering the spirits and causing them to go wild and so they create a justification for their own existence by causing the spirits to become angry so that they are then needed to calm them into submission.
And then again perhaps i could just weave that into a secret sub-sect of the wychlaran that the membership isnt aware of. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 03:15:01
On the idea of the whips, it occurs to me that the damage reduction of demons is usually bothered by either cold iron (which is abhorrent to the fey) or good. So, what if the whips were endowed with the power of good somehow. Maybe they were made of leather bound with unicorn manes. Maybe they were made with the hides of Mulhorandi noble-blooded (aka Genasi) who willingly provided their flesh in sufferance to the cause of ridding their northern neighbor of their demonic scum. Maybe they were made with the flesh of their own ancestors, blessed by the three goddesses, that through their own sacrifice they might free their long-suffering peoples. In fact, the Durthans might still follow this practice and harvest whips from their own dead ancestors in accordance with traditional practices (and these whips might provide some power over ancestral telthors). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 02:31:54
Here's what I see happening. The Raumathari culture was one which focused on elemental and nature magics. The males focused on the magics of war, metal magics, fire magics, thunder and lightning magics, force magics, and cold magics. They also focused on technological advancements in the form of magitech (golems, magical constructs, etc...), wondrous items, weaponry and armor during the later parts of their empire, whenever they began to learn from old Imaskari lore.
The females however focused on the magics of healing, nature, plant magics, weather control, and most importantly they practiced magics in concert to have greater control over such things as weather magic or plant magics, etc..... This isn't to say that the females weren't capable of the more combat oriented magics, but it does imply that they were more likely to be behind the lines protecting hearth and home while the males were propogating the wars. However, A subset of these practioners probably also began studies in abjuration, protection, and countering summoning magics (possibly becoming some of the first incantatrixes), as well as seeking to modify their magics by working in circles (possibly known as covens).
The final conflict happens, resulting in the death of most of the Raumathari battlemages. Eltab takes over in the country, using his bestial nature to make the folk of Rashemen think of him as a powerful nature spirit rather than an Abyssal being. This is furthered likely by his order to kill all who practice magic in the country. The female casters who survived the Great Conflagration flee their homes to live in the surrounding great forests. Others go seeking aid in the wider world around them and come across the barbaric Illuskan tribe known as the Rus, many of whom believe in nature spirit worship somewhat akin to that of the Raumathari.
A generation passes in which many of these women grow up with their children in the fey forests of Rashemen. They begin to slowly make contacts with the villages again, but only while using masks to conceal their identities. Similar to Robin Hood they slowly begin to make the lives of the people of Rashemen better by secretly combatting the forces of Eltab. Meanwhile, the witches manage to use lost Imaskari lore to create a portal link from somewhere in Rashemen to where the Rus live, and they cause a portal to "malfunction" and draw a powerful tribe of biddable warriors to their homeland (where of course they use their womanly wiles to encourage them to aid their society against the monstrosity known as Eltab).
Slowly several different sects of "wychlaran" gather together to form the original witches of Rashemen. Thus, I picture Durthans, druidesses, Hathrans , Incantatrixes, and even possibly beings like binders who worked with the spirits of the world, and possibly cults who have since been lost such as covens that drew upon fey magic through fey familiars, or that worked with ley lines. However, they all worked towards the end goal of ousting Eltab. They probably learned more of Eltab in the years following the Great Conflagration, especially as they began to discover demoncysts in the surrounding lands and worked divinations to discover their source.
There has got to be a good reason for how the whips fit into their culture. For instance, maybe Eltab was preventing weaponry being owned by anyone not his loyalists (though that would be hard to believe is such a savage world)? More likely, Eltab had some kind of magics in place to detect metals, and thus the women were sticking to weapons that they could conceal. Or perhaps they simply were taking the whips for the demon overlords and turning them upon them. Perhaps they came later and were seen as a kinder means to rule than the sword (one can survive a whipping more readily). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 16:55:29
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well novels dont cut it for me. Too much bad canon.
It's your call, of course, but I think you're being overly dismissive of some good material by brushing novels aside. Not only is there some really good material in some of the novels (and some good tales, to boot), but it also has to be noted that there are sourcebooks with canon issues. I personally have had issues with canon issues in sourcebooks far more oft than canon issues in novels. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 14:47:04
Well novels dont cut it for me. Too much bad canon.
The Raumathari were horse nomads like the Taan, so whether they were druidic or not it was probably only very low level magic and so inconsequential at the early stages.
Imaskari magic doesnt strike me as particularly nature based either (novels excluded for usual reasons). Raumathar and Narfell are stated in several sourcebooks as having acquired much of their magical knowledge from the Imaskari ruins when they were hired by Mulhorand during the Orcgate wars.
Magic is just magic to me, it uses the weave, its all the same stuff. Yes the caster might use a different language, but plug it into the same Operating system (the weave) and it all does pretty much the same stuff.
But thats an aside.
Either they had control over Kossuth or they did not. If they did have control over Kossuth (in order to direct him to not destroy the forests and Rashemen) then why destroy their own armies. If they did not have control over Kossuth (because he destroyed their own armies) then why did he avoid the forest of Lethyr. I can understand him avoiding rashemen since Eltab was in residence and thats not really a fight Kossuth is going to undertake lightly (probably the same reason why Eltab refused to march to Kensten since he may have had an inkling or a clue that Raumathar were going to summon Kossuth).
Narfell appears to have had the same problem with Eltab. They summoned him, ordered him to conquer Rashemen and Raumathar so he got as far as Rashemen and declared "i'll do the rest later, you never specified a time frame". That is exactly how i expect circumventing orders to occur.
I get that Kossuth is an elemental lord and therefore he works in mysterious ways, but ignoring an entire forest full of burnable trees is exactly the opposite of what i would expect a fire elemental to do, doing it twice is just downright odd. So if Raumathar stupidly ordered Kossuth to destroy everyone on the battlefield then thats fine he destroys the Raumathari as well. If they ordered him to destroy all trace of Narfell then i get he destroys the army, wanders up through Narfell and then maybe even into Rashemen as that would all have been Nar territory at one point, but again why leave the forest? And the disappearance at Winterkeep is also odd since that was ruined not long before.
Its just a bit too strange for me and therefore deserves a bit more digging. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 14:28:23
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Seems a silly idea for Raumathar to destroy its own army. Seems strange that it would preserve a forest that existed in Narfell and Rashemen which was at that time a major demon stronghold in service to Narfell. Even stranger that the avatar would end its path outside a ruined winter palace of Raumathar.
{sigh} You can only include so much detail in a timeline entry.
Raumathar did NOT destroy its own army - they summoned an ELEMENTAL LORD to destroy their enemies, and in their hubris (its always hubris, isn't it?) thought they could control him. He not only did what they asked, but he destroyed them as well, for their temerity. As for Eltab stopping - their was a major druidic artifact/relic there at Winterkeep that would have kept him out (see the novel Frostfell).
I already said that Raumathar had 'strong druidic leanings' (see the novel Frostfell), which is why they would be against destroying any forest. Their original magic was nature-based, and probably the very basis for the Rashemi Witch's traditions. They were losing the war until they captured a Narfeli Demonbinder, who taught him their ways... to their undoing. They became corrupted by the very thing they were fighting against (destruction of 'the balance of nature' by fiendish forces). I can see the Raumvari having gotten their original magic from the Fey, which ties into so much else going on that region (the Taan). Even the Imaskari had gotten some of their knowledge from the Fey (see the novel Darkvision). Besides an archfey (demigod/Exarch) living in the middle of the Wastes (Hro'nyewachu), we also have a lot of history centered around 'Spirit Folk' (half-Fey) - see the entries revolving around the Fallen kingdom of Guge in The Hordeands sources. There is also the 'Cave of a Thousand Gods' (Kami - which are what Fey are called in the east), and a major tribe of Lythari (elves with a very fey-leaning). Everything points to a fey/druidic tradition in that region early-on.
Krash and I have been tossing-around the idea that the main Raumathar 'juggernaught' was not really an automaton at all - they had combined ancient Imaskari knowledge of Golemancy (mobile artificery) with what they were able to learn from their enemies, and created a type of soulcage built into a massive suit of armor (precursors to Helmed Horrors... or a more advanced device?) If we throw-in the 'Fey magic' connection, we can reason why these 'enchanted magical suits of armor' would have been made from copper (fey - and their magic - HATE Iron). So these 'Copper juggernaughts' would walk onto the battlefield, and when confronting a demon, would absorb it into itself, thus trapping it (to bend its will, and to use their power). Some demons, however, proved too powerful to control in this manner (like the 'Copper Demon of Troos').
But I digress... The point is that the Raumathari magic and the Narfeli magic were anathema to each other initially, but in the end, Raumathar was corrupted, as has happened so many times before and since (the elves - both drow and Aryvandaar - and the folk of Ascalhorn - now Hellgate Keep). Moral of the story - if you keep the company of demons, you become one.
I used to think The Hordelands was a good place for me to 'park myself' and create lore, but I think with George making forays into that area more frequently, and Mark Sehestedt's penchant for writing novels there, I may have to find myself some new stomping grounds to call my own. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 10:34:19
Well i suspected you had a hand in that piece given the historical context.
Any further clues you want to share? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 10:32:58
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Grand History of the Realms has an excellent bit about the last stages of the war.
Yes, I think it is quite excellent. An inspired bit of realmslore. Brilliant really. Ahem.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 09:20:55
Grand History of the Realms has an excellent bit about the last stages of the war.
It appears the Nar used frost giants to conquer Rashemen and then they destroyed Winterkeep.
In response Raumathar used magic to unleash the dragons of Hoarfaern upon Narfell and the two armies entered a stalemate for a time.
Next Raumathar created its construct army and pushed through to Narfell itself where the army was whisked away through giant portals to somewhere else by the Nar (that sounds like an interesting hook with a mad man trying to bring them back).
Raumathar had fortified the Lakelands and so Narfell ordered Eltab to take Rashemen once more. Once he had done so he refused to move so he could study the Telthors and try to twist them to his service.
Narfell learned Raumathar was gathering a force at Kensten and so marched its armies into Thay. Raumathar then unleashed Kossuth in Thay and the avatar destroyed both armies and went on its path of destruction missing out the forest of lethyr and rashemen before stopping at Winterkeep.
Seems a silly idea for Raumathar to destroy its own army. Seems strange that it would preserve a forest that existed in Narfell and Rashemen which was at that time a major demon stronghold in service to Narfell. Even stranger that the avatar would end its path outside a ruined winter palace of Raumathar.
Winterkeep was supposedly destroyed by frost and fire which matches the frost giants destroying it and then kossuth turning up later. The witches know secret paths to Winterkeep so they must have been there before quite frequently to learn those secret safe routes (why would they go following its destruction, more likely they lived there before the event).
It looks to me like the witches summoned Kossuth or had knowledge of his summoning, certainly enough to unsummon him at Winterkeep (the subterranean passages are still in good condition to this day so many people may have survived the destruction of the keep). For whatever reason they kept Rashemen alive and then appeared there to help remove Eltab (although that doesnt mean they wouldnt help him at first in order to get close to him). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 09:04:25
Okay, found this in Eltabs writeup.
quote:
In an effort to open a new front against Raumathar, the reigning Nentyarch directed Eltab to invade Rashemen with a host of demons, who quickly overran the realm. In the Year of the Black Marble (–148 DR), Eltab claimed Rashemen for himself, and the demon lord quickly found he had a taste for ruling in the lands of humankind, with the almost godlike veneration one such as he could inspire.
Looks like Narfell had the demons conquer Raumathar between -160 and -150 so that they could invade Raumathar from the north (i believe at that particular point in time Thay was owned by Raumathar after they took it from Narfell).
Following the death of Narfell Eltab marched into Rashemen and the demons would naturally defer to one as powerful as he. And it appears he had the humans worship him.
I'm still leaning towards the wychlaran originally being servants of Eltab who betrayed him after they learned enough about him. Dont know why though, maybe its my naturally suspicious mind. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 08:56:32
I have been thinking about the origin of the two sects (although there should be more) and i've had a number of possible ideas.
Perhaps a difference in patrons (i.e. the Hathrans threw in their lot with Eltab for a time and so the Durthans split off from the main group and maybe turned to other powers for help. Perhaps its a familial origin with a number of twins that started the group having a fall out and so breaking away to form their own groups. Perhaps its a racial divide with the Raumviran Hathrans beginning it then the native Rashemmi form their own group as a rival, perhaps some Nars also form their own sect as well.
None of the theories seem to have any more legitimacy than others in the lore.
Also i've been wondering about the Old Ones and i was thinking that their segregation may not be purely for magical talent. What if it was a legacy of Eltab's conquest and the Old Ones exhibit a recessive demonic trait found only in males that makes them dangerous but magically gifted. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Nov 2014 : 02:38:46
There must be a reason why there are hathrans and durthans, don't you think?
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Nov 2014 : 21:00:31
Gotcha.
I think its just another example of 'wheels within wheels' of this setting. There is always 'someone behind the curtain, pulling strings'.
As for the Witches themselves - its a pretty common trope of modern fantasy (and scify)...
Aes Sedai of WoT, 'The Sisters of the Light' (and dark) of SoT, the Bene Gesserit of Dune, the 'Granny Magic' of the Ozark trilogy (a weird but wonderful romp), etc, etc - groups of 'mysterious women who are very secret, have 'magical powers', and keep to themselves until some disaster forces them to act overtly'. Usually, when they are 'hidden' (or even mostly hidden), they only announce themselves (their existence) when they foresee the need (they also usually have those kinds of precognitive abilities).
Thus, The Witches of Rashemen saw a time in the near future when they would be needed, and people would have to listen to them, so they announced their presence to everyone. In other words, they were there the whole time (since the beginnings of the Raumvari people), but only came forward then. Tthere may have been other times, in the distant past, like during the war between Raumatahr and Narfell... which is interesting if you consider there may have been witches on each side, operating covertly against one-another.
EDIT: This just came to me after I hit 'post'; Nature magic - like divine magic - depends a lot on 'belief', and perhaps they needed to establish 'strong beliefs' of their power before they were able to pull-off that feat (of binding a demon). 50 years isn't really very long, but it may have been long enough (two generations?)
EDIT2: Also, there is always a LOT going on everywhere in the Realms. Just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean nothing at all isn't going on (that 50 years of nothing you mentioned). It would be impossible to detail every interesting tidbit that happened in every single country. we just get the 'highlights'. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Nov 2014 : 19:50:48
Well I wasn't really over thinking it in that way. Its just that summoning and binding a demon lord is pretty monumental and seemingly unique in this setting (and possibly others).
The Nar managed it because another demon lord imparted the knowledge of how to them. The people of Eltabranar managed it possibly because Eltab himself may have told them how in order to secure his release.
Szass Tam managed it after talking with one of the most powerful wizards on the planet (and maybe several others).
So how did the wychlaran manage to bind Eltab into one place. Where did they get the knowledge?
Anyway that aside. The origin and early history is what interests me. They appear as if out of nowhere and announce themselves to the Rashemmi before seemingly doing nothing for the next 50 years until the Rus arrive.
Plus there is the case of Eltab ruling over Rashemen. There doesn't seem to be any lasting effect of his control over the region. He arrives in Rashemen seemingly under orders of the last Nentyarch of Narfell and then nothing is known until the wychlaran and berserkers remove him.
Did he have hordes of demons with him that enforced his order. Did he rule from somewhere in Rashemen itself. Or did he move into Winterkeep, find the wychlaran, and use them to enforce his rule over the rashemmi. Then perhaps they betray him at the first opportunity.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Nov 2014 : 14:21:55
I think you are on the right track, but at the same time, you may be over-thinking it.
Nature magic is 'life magic', and on some level I think that is anathema to fiendish (corruption of nature) magic. I would definitely picturing it harming demons.
The 4e lore says most demons were created by the corruption of elementals back in 'primordial times'. So in the same manner that Arcane energy (Silver Fire) can hurt/disrupt Shade magic, thats what I picture Nature-based magic doing to a demon. Once you've 'lost balance' and have emptied yourself of one type of energy over another, then any contact with the energy you have surrendered would cause you great harm. We also see something similar in one of Elaine's novels, when the Drow are deathly afraid of anything 'Fey' (because they have given-up their fey nature... in fact... thats precielsy what happened in this case as well. Nature/balance vs corrupting demonic energies: Lolth is 'the demon-Queen of spiders').
Another example would be that scene where Elminster is letting Larloch 'touch' Silver Fire, and while it hurts him, he is still enough of 'his old self' to taste the ecstasy it once held for him.
LOL - now it looks like I am 'over-thinking things'. But its actually very simple at its core - any being without balance will get 'burned' by the opposite energy of that which they have chosen. Thus, the Witches aren't uber-powerful and have some sort of super-magic we don't know about, its just that the nature of their magic works so well against corruption. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Nov 2014 : 09:23:00
Well the sword being able to hurt eltab and the witches being able to bind him beneath the sharawood shows that they know a lot about him and summoning in general.
Ill check out the dragon mag but probably ignore the novel (I tar them all with the same brush nowadays)
I was checking out some musings by the designers on here and one described kossuths route which was to skirt the forest of lethyr go through narfell back round avoiding rashemen before disappearing outside winterkeep.
Its a curious path and shows a respect for nature and rashemen.
Im thinking as the raumathari were originally horse nomads the vassalised rashemen and took a harem probably from the royal family. This group lived in winterkeep and may have been responsible for kossuth.
The witches know secret paths to winterkeep after all. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 14:54:14
They are part of the greater Raumvari* group (which was the ethnicity of the Raumathari, but NOT their entirety). Now, in my own homebrew musings I have likened the original (human) peoples of the Taan to Eastern Europeans (loosely), right down to thinking that the Finnish myths actually occurred in the far north (just to the east of the Great Ice Sea). In that way, FR did not get that pantheon from Earth, but rather, it worked the other way-around.
Anyhow, I use the Vistani from Ravenloft for my Raumvari (some few of whom still stick to 'the old ways'). In the novel Darkvision, the main character even bought a Vardo (gypsy wagon) in Rashemi, IIRC (I think it was because they were known for building such fine, 'mobile homes'). This also ties in nicely to the nomadic traditions of the Taan region (there are a few 'less Asian' Taangan {Tuigan} tribes, especially in the western wastes, near Rashemi and Narfell).
Further, in the novel Frostfell, we see that the original Raumthari nation had more druidic leanings, before being 'corrupted' by their war with Narfell. This also show-horns nicely with a more Eastern-European (nature-oriented/shamanistic) take on this rather large and wide-spread ethnic group.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Who were the wychlaran, where did they come from?
Where did they come from?
* See The Horde article in issue #349 of Dragon magazine. There was some decent history in that, but it was incomplete, and the article was missing a few important sites and details (at least THREE non-human kingdoms!) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Nov 2014 : 14:46:50
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
That they were seemingly able to create the only weapon known to be capable of injuring Eltab, at the time a powerful demon lord. Surely such magic would require intimate knowledge of his nature, perhaps even his true name.
A lot of extra-planar types have various forms of damage reduction... It could have been a far simpler thing of there not having been a powerful enough weapon to overcome his DR, until the wychlaren pooled their resources and made one.
You could be correct; I'm just saying it's not the only possible answer. |
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