| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Razz |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 04:40:11
According to "Magic of Faerun", the Weave is not present beyond the Material Plane of Toril. It is only in Toril where one needs the Weave to safely access and shape magic to work as intended.
My question is has there been any precedent where a magic user discovered, or was researching, a method of casting spells safely WITHOUT having to rely on the Weave (or the Shadow Weave)? If so, what details are known.
I have a player with a sun elf wizard who is traveling the world and is consumed in magical research to discover a means to use magic without relying on the Weave/Shadow Weave. I am curious on whether this has been discovered or done in Realmslore first, before I plan to make up the rest myself.
Appreciate any help given :D |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 09:05:16
Learned Scribe BrennonGoldeye,
This is why I felt it was odd and not a good story to have the Weave broken by Karsus. Sure, he accessed the "real stuff" (I like that expression), but that doesn't mean it breaks it. For a mortal mage to figure out at the moment of ascension how to break the Weave must mean the Weave is pathetically weak and vulnerable. If so, you would have thought other gods would have broken that to cause similar outcomes, etc.
Water under the bridge now though.
Best regards,
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 01:52:48
Master Krashos,
quote:
Mystryl struck me as a deity who simply exulted in the working of magic and the shaping/manipulation of the Weave. She didn't have the concerns about the actual ramifications of the use of magic that Mystra did (almost certainly because of Karsus).
I agree with you there. In fact, I think the ethical approach that Mystral utilized was a Divine Command Theory ethic: it is as she made it be, as a deity. There is no wrong in contravention of her will. I think it is quite interesting to evaluate Mystral in that way. Thoughts?
quote:
Mystryl allowed mythallars that were in effect direct, focused Weave taps and mighty magics that played havoc with the ecology and actual make up of Faerun (Sundering, et. al.)
This is why I find the ethical argumentation of how the intersection of the mechanical alignment system denies the reality of what is going on with the actions of deities, mortals, etc. It would bring together harmoniously, the writings of Realms authors, product designers and DM's, if the alignment system were eliminated, or at a minimum powerfully altered so we could assign more experiential reality to what is going on with these deities since they behave in the very powerful, but childish ways of the Greek and Roman gods.
quote:
Remember, it is explicitly stated that she sacrificed herself to save the Weave, and so she did what she had to do to preserve the best means of casting magic going around and what was essentially her core essence. Without the Weave the deity of magic becomes a tin pot deity with a few (in relative terms) worshippers who use alternative-to-the-Weave magic systems.
This is the one part that didn't make sense to me. So Karsus figured out a different power level of magic. She should have been able to just shut it down. When Karsus tapped into it she should have been able to figure it out and do a quick fix with some Weave duct tape and call it good until she could professionally finish the job. It really diminished in my eyes, the power of a greater deity who controlled the very essence of Art/Power. It would have been a great opportunity for her to fix the problem and "promote" Karsus to an Exarch or Seneshchal.
quote:
Her power and power base are instantly gone, and more likely ripe for some other deity (Jergal ...) to usurp. Just a cluster f of immense proportions simply because Mystryl thought that the good times were going to roll on forever.
I respect the military and Cars quotes immensely.
Best regards,
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 01:39:55
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
haha...I don't know why, but, I saw dependent only. Thank you for that correction! :)
Best regards,
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 22:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I would postulate Karsus' avatar was Weave independent. Otherwise, how could Karsus forcibly seize Mystryl's power, even if only momentarily?
Why not?
She could just "unplug" it (or him) or do "soft" shutdown like her heirs did for maintenance, instead of a hard reboot that killed her?
Yes, but this would involve acting directly against her own portfolio. Deities are at least extremely unwilling and at most (according to some sources) completely unable to do this.
Mystra and Mystra II could and did ban spells, but it indirectly feeds their portfolio, and rarely done anyway.Also, all these banned spells already were tested - usually even too extensively, which is what got them banned. Karsus' Avatar was the first casting of that spell ever. In light of having magic development in portfolio it's a very different situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given that elves are supposed to be really in touch with the Weave and all that, I would assume that High Magic does use the Weave -- but it's a separate spellcasting tradition that draws on the Weave in a way unlike other spellcasting,
Not separate, since it requires a more common form as a prerequisite.
As to unlike, who knows?
Maybe e.g. psionic enchantments is close, as another "more direct" approach. Of course, to work with the Weave, someone should first somehow bring those methods (rare even where invented) to Realmspace first. And either become a living artifact, or learn to use other artifacts as anchors instead. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Mar 2020 : 01:04:50
Given that elves are supposed to be really in touch with the Weave and all that, I would assume that High Magic does use the Weave -- but it's a separate spellcasting tradition that draws on the Weave in a way unlike other spellcasting, and that a key component of this way of calling on the Weave is the elven connection to the Weave. |
| BrennonGoldeye |
Posted - 16 Mar 2020 : 19:50:49
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Other than Elven High Magic not requiring the Weave, what other possibilities are there?
Epic Spellcasting goes straight to the source along the same lines as Elven High Magic.There are several Archmages and High Priests wandering around capable of accessing the real stuff. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 23:27:00
I think the answer is that Mystryl was a very different deity to Mystra. Mystryl struck me as a deity who simply exulted in the working of magic and the shaping/manipulation of the Weave. She didn't have the concerns about the actual ramifications of the use of magic that Mystra did (almost certainly because of Karsus). Mystryl allowed mythallars that were in effect direct, focused Weave taps and mighty magics that played havoc with the ecology and actual make up of Faerun (Sundering, et. al.) and couldn't care less. Magic was all. Karsus did indeed use the Weave and Mystryl didn't care until she realised that his spell was going to probably destroy that construct. Remember, it is explicitly stated that she sacrificed herself to save the Weave, and so she did what she had to do to preserve the best means of casting magic going around and what was essentially her core essence. Without the Weave the deity of magic becomes a tin pot deity with a few (in relative terms) worshippers who use alternative-to-the-Weave magic systems. Her power and power base are instantly gone, and more likely ripe for some other deity (Jergal ...) to usurp. Just a cluster f of immense proportions simply because Mystryl thought that the good times were going to roll on forever.
-- George Krashos |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 15 Mar 2020 : 16:02:36
Master cpthero2,
That is why I said Karsus' Avatar was Weave independent, not Weave dependent.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Delnyn,
I don't necessarily agree with that. He had to get to the point of being an avatar, thus using some source of power, to get to the point of seizing Mytral's power. That's why I think, it must have been him pulling on some sort of other magical power source, other than the Weave to do so. I would imagine that Mystral as her being a deity, would have just prevented him from using the Weave to do what he did.
That was the rationale behind my looking at Pact magic as a form of magic, though I don't think it was what was used specifically. Honestly, it must have been Elven High Magic that he somehow gained access too, as I believe that Elven High Magic was independent of the Weave.
Thoughts?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I would postulate Karsus' avatar was Weave independent. Otherwise, how could Karsus forcibly seize Mystryl's power, even if only momentarily?
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 16:07:06
Seeker Delnyn,
I don't necessarily agree with that. He had to get to the point of being an avatar, thus using some source of power, to get to the point of seizing Mytral's power. That's why I think, it must have been him pulling on some sort of other magical power source, other than the Weave to do so. I would imagine that Mystral as her being a deity, would have just prevented him from using the Weave to do what he did.
That was the rationale behind my looking at Pact magic as a form of magic, though I don't think it was what was used specifically. Honestly, it must have been Elven High Magic that he somehow gained access too, as I believe that Elven High Magic was independent of the Weave.
Thoughts?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I would postulate Karsus' avatar was Weave independent. Otherwise, how could Karsus forcibly seize Mystryl's power, even if only momentarily?
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 09:26:27
I would postulate Karsus' avatar was Weave independent. Otherwise, how could Karsus forcibly seize Mystryl's power, even if only momentarily? |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 08:15:45
Senior Scribe Razz,
I believe you could also use Pact magic for this. It seems that Pact magic would be drawing upon other sources than the Weave to fuel that power. It is discussed that the vestige of Karsus can be activated using pact magic but cannot be activated within the area of an active spell (Tome of Magic 3.5, p.37). It seems there is a little room in there to consider if that is meaning that area is unable to have magic used in it or not, or more likely, just not magic from the Weave. Page 110 of Tome of Magic 3.5 goes to say,
quote:
Because the Weave draws in energies, not just from extraplanar sources, but from the world around it, it leaves
holes in reality where those energies come from.
I think you'd be standing on good ground to go that route.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
According to "Magic of Faerun", the Weave is not present beyond the Material Plane of Toril. It is only in Toril where one needs the Weave to safely access and shape magic to work as intended.
My question is has there been any precedent where a magic user discovered, or was researching, a method of casting spells safely WITHOUT having to rely on the Weave (or the Shadow Weave)? If so, what details are known.
I have a player with a sun elf wizard who is traveling the world and is consumed in magical research to discover a means to use magic without relying on the Weave/Shadow Weave. I am curious on whether this has been discovered or done in Realmslore first, before I plan to make up the rest myself.
Appreciate any help given :D
|
| The Silver Sage |
Posted - 15 Mar 2017 : 05:04:23
My understanding of the weave is that it acts as a "filter" for the raw ambient magical energy which suffuses the universe. Magic is always present; left over from creation. Mystryl simply made the weave so that magic is more easily accessible (thus gaining more believers). Indeed, the weave is such a useful source of spellcasting that even the gods elect to use it (though a few elder gods don’t need to; they can just channel energy directly and grant it as divine magic to their followers). Use of the weave has become so pervasive, that most mortals have forgotten how to cast spells without it and rely on it.
But it is possible to channel raw magical energy; albeit rather difficult (misuse can kill you). This is how high elven magic works. The elves, being such an ancient race, had to learn how to channel magic without the use of the weave. Oftentimes, when creating an elven mythal, they had to use several elven archwizards to even attempt such a feat in days long rituals (which speaks to how difficult channeling raw magic can be).
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Magic |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 30 Dec 2016 : 11:12:40
I asked related questions, but no answer. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 28 Dec 2016 : 09:35:14
There is an article from 3.5 where the Magic of Incarnum is described as possibly Connected to Heavy Magic and Karsus. It would make the incarnum classes and races be connected With non-weave Magic, if the DM uses the optional rules.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070808
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 23:29:05
Wild-magic (and wild-mages) apparently originated from studies of Weave instabilities during the 1E-to-2E Time of Troubles. Such magic (and mages) might not be affected by Weave failures.
Mystryl allowed magic of all levels - including Netherese mythals and mythallars and spells of 10th, 11th, and 12th level. Her replacement, Mystra 1.0, rebuilt the Weave but only permitted mortals to have magics up to 9th level (10th-level, under special circumstances, with her special permission, for those deemed worthy). I suggest that anyone capable of casting 10th level or higher spells can circumvent the Weave. In practice this basically just means level 20+ characters somehow imported from Dark Sun setting.
Psionics, I think, completely circumvents the Weave. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 17 Dec 2016 : 23:20:52
I think that you specified it well - if you can cast it in dead magic zone than it is Weave independant. I do not believe that you can cast even elven High Magic in such zone. It is a epic magic so it is really strong and specialy permanent effects should be hard to dispell or dismantle with normal spells.
So for me there is only one source not using Weave and that is Shadow Weave. I do not say there are no others I just haven't tought of one. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 19:15:46
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The (2E) rules about mythals don't explicitly specify what happens to them when the world's background magic (the Weave) sputters or spikes or collapses. Although they do specify that "normal" magics - including the spells dispel magic, antimagic shell, and even wish - aren't particularly effective, they might deactivate a single effect or locality within the mythal for a time but they just aren't powerful enough to have any lasting effect. However, wish (and even limited wish) can be used to permanently change or reduce dead-magic and wild-magic zones. To me this suggests that mythals and Elven High Magic in general are more powerful than wish and likely impervious to Weave-failure conditions.
In other words, mythals should rate on par with artifacts. Which only makes sense.
quote:
might have been degraded from another cause, as well.
[...] Too many waves of fiendish invaders?
It was stated so.
Anyway, corruption of a mythal is not something unique. They are tough, but dependent on the surroundings too much to be invulnerable. See also: Myth Glaurach.
quote:
Methodically eroded by drow attacks?
They wish. That thing under Ravengate probably could do the job, but it sent the drow themselves running.
quote:
Maybe the mythal is even depressed, angered, saddened by grief and loss and ruin?
Mythal-puppy!  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Aug 2014 : 23:02:22
Or you might be correct, xaeyruudh, I don't know.
The (2E) rules about mythals don't explicitly specify what happens to them when the world's background magic (the Weave) sputters or spikes or collapses. Although they do specify that "normal" magics - including the spells dispel magic, antimagic shell, and even wish - aren't particularly effective, they might deactivate a single effect or locality within the mythal for a time but they just aren't powerful enough to have any lasting effect. However, wish (and even limited wish) can be used to permanently change or reduce dead-magic and wild-magic zones. To me this suggests that mythals and Elven High Magic in general are more powerful than wish and likely impervious to Weave-failure conditions.
Myth Drannor's mythallar might have been degraded from another cause, as well. Flawed construction? Rampantly overabundant (mis)use of magics within its area over the centuries? Too many waves of fiendish invaders? Methodically eroded by drow attacks? Perhaps the sentience in charge of the mythal wasn't stable enough to retain sanity over the years? Myth Drannor is a ruined mess, unlike the habitations protected by other mythals. Maybe the mythal is even depressed, angered, saddened by grief and loss and ruin?
Evereska's mythal also nearly failed (while besieged by phaerimm invaders), until it was infused with a boost of (for lack of a better name) Elven High Shadow Magic. A mighty magical battle was fought at the site for a long time, involving Elven High Mages, several Chosen, Silverfire, various potent-yet-unworthy artifacts, and numerous elven and human wizards and priests. Seems like exactly the sorts of conditions which would strain the Weave to me, although such a thing (and its possible effects on the mythal) were never mentioned.
Massive stresses on the Weave apparently distract Mystra a bit, forcing her to allocate some of her attention onto the site. Thay was cratered during the Spellplague, too much magical battle going on. Halruaa was flat out nuked. Mystra herself perished, along with her Weave, leaving that silly blue storm stuff flashing and flaring all over the Realms. Yet Shade didn't dip out of orbit, its mythallar seemingly unaffected, and the elven mythals continued to function normally (or abnormally, in Myth Drannor's case) without any noticeable change during these events (indeed, up to a full century beyond these events). |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 30 Aug 2014 : 17:59:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elven High Mages can use their Elven High Magic unimpeded by Weave-failure conditions. Their permanent magics - things like Mythals and Moonblades - also continue to function during Mystras interregna and beyond.
I was under the impression that mythals deteriorated when the local Weave became weak/unstable, and that being separated from the Weave would spell the end of a mythal. I thought that was precisely the problem with Myth Drannor's weave, between 714 and 1357; there had been so many summonings etc, and the Weave in the area had been so abused, that the mythal was corrupting and dying. I can easily be wrong; that was what I took from the reading (admittedly, it's been quite a while since I did that reading). |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 30 Aug 2014 : 17:53:57
I think I get what you're going for. I envision the alienist and disciple/thrall prestige classes as drawing power from other planes. Casting spells in a magic-dead zone is fairly dramatic, and it's quite possible that the designers didn't intend to allow any prestige classes to do that. I'm just saying a rational case can be made favoring it. These classes are at least tainted by other planes, and I don't see a game-rending problem with allowing them to bypass the Weave entirely. The ability to cast magic in a magic-dead/wild zone could be balanced by being unable to cast spells whenever you're denied access to other planes. Just my take, obviously.
There are plenty of other systems of magic which have probably only been omitted from Realms books for incidental (or legal) reasons. Incarnum is "certainly suitable for the Realms" according to Ed last year (source) and he says in the same post that there are dozens of other methods of spellcasting in the Realms. Any of these might not depend on the Weave.
Also: asking Ed about something specific might take less time (and thus get a quicker answer) than the general question of how someone might cast magic without using either the Weave or the Shadow Weave.
Good luck.  |
| Razz |
Posted - 30 Aug 2014 : 15:18:04
Indeed it is. The examples given sound to me more like different ways of channeling the Weave as opposed to bypassing it altogether to access another raw source of magic that is not reliant on the Weave.
Basically, what sort of magic would not be affected in a Wild Magic or Dead Magic zone? The Shadow Weave is affected by neither, for example. I would propose this on the Ask Ed thread, but the guy is so busy I dunno when he'll ever get the chance to answer. I don't think he's yet to answer a few questions I've asked a couple years ago LOL |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 30 Aug 2014 : 04:57:15
DM prerogative.
It's probably not in Realmslore, but I've thought about taking oddball kits and prestige classes and declaring that they access magic through a means other than the Weave.
Blood magus, from Tome and Blood, is one example. Using your own blood to fuel spells... not a typical means of accessing magic. Also from T&B, the alienist could bypass the Weave.
If you use the Book of Vile Darkness, malign sites and sacrifices --as well as the Disciple and Thrall prestige classes-- offer other opportunities to get around the Weave. They don't have to, but they can.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I think curses should be independent of the Weave. Not the bestow curse spell, but the voodoo type of curse that someone without apparent spellcasting power can sometimes lay upon an entire family for multiple generations. Stuff that wouldn't work using the standard "rules" of spell design and balance.
Anyway, I know you're looking for precedents in Realmslore, and I don't have any of those. It's an interesting topic, though. |
| Razz |
Posted - 30 Aug 2014 : 04:08:50
Other than Elven High Magic not requiring the Weave, what other possibilities are there? |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 14 Aug 2014 : 05:08:26
There was an article in Dragon Magazine that suggested that elven magic was sort of separate from normal magic in the Realms. It was very vague on the details as I recall. Can't really look it up right now though. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Aug 2014 : 02:37:22
Elven High Mages can use their Elven High Magic unimpeded by Weave-failure conditions. Their permanent magics - things like Mythals and Moonblades - also continue to function during Mystras interregna and beyond. Some sources claim that such magics are also unaffected by dead-magic and wild-magic zones (malfunctioning zones or holes in the Weave), although admittedly canon of these last claims is dubious. Nonetheless, this all strongly suggests that Elven High Magic is not Weave-dependant. |
| Razz |
Posted - 13 Aug 2014 : 23:52:04
Rune Magic looks like it does use the Weave. I also thought Elven High Magic was another. Because when you read those entries, it doesn't say they don't require the Weave.
So, say someone pisses Mystra off and she blocks access to their magic. A spellcaster could take up Runecasting and be able to use their magic via that route then? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 15:24:40
I remember Ghuls cast spells based on a link with the Negative Material plane. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 22:47:28
The Candlekeep search genie can retrieve many scrolls in which the Weave has been defined, discussed, and debated in great detail.
There are several magical disciplines/traditions in the Realms which do not require any Weaves. Elven High Magic is a fine example.
Its unclear whether wizards hailing from other worlds/planes draw from the Weave when using their magics in the Realms. Realmslore has never really attempted to answer this, although a few magic-using characters with exotic origins are sometimes featured in FR fiction - unfortunately, they tend to be extraordinary individuals who are not representative of ordinary magic-users. I would apply When-in-Rome logic, that is, magic (of any type) in the Realms is governed by Mystra and her Weave, just as death (of any type) in the Realms is governed by Jergal/Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor/etc, its just part of the properties of the place, not unlike how extraplanar places each have unique rules and properties of their own. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 04:47:36
Oh, there are unnamed magics in the Realms, also totem magic, rune magic and a few others. The Weave simple was the easiest to use so most use that as a focus. Some of the ask Ed has spoke some about the other magics. I am not sure how much is in print, however it might be High Elven Magic does not require the Weave, though likely used it as a shortcut. |
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