| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 12:38:55
Maybe this is a complete coincidence, maybe not.
I just noticed this quote in GHoTR
quote:
-10300 DR: The elves of Keltormir, opposed on both sides by the Vyshaan of Aryvandaar and the dark elf Clan Hune of Ilythiir, strategically withdraw from eastern Keltormir, holding their lines at Highlands’ Edge.
At the time i was reading Cloak and Dagger in the section about the Knights of the Shield which were refounded by Tithklar Illehhune.
It struck me that the name Illehhune and Hune of Ilythiir could be linked over time through various language corruptions.
The fact that Clan Hune was fighting in Keltormir which at one point covered Tethyr, and that Tithklar Illehhune and now Lord Inselm Hhune are based in the Tethyr area are also intriguing.
That Tithklar was driven to explore a barrow based on dream visions he received could be significant.
I wonder if the Hhune/Illehhune family are not incredibly distantly related to the dark elves of Clan Hune (after all there were humans present in those forests so long ago).
Then perhaps Gargauth long ago had a minor role in the corruption of the dark elves (as well as wendonai and lolth), and maybe he reached out to Tithklar Illehhune when he was trapped in the Shield of the Hidden Lord because of the ancient corruptive link he has with the bloodline of Clan Hune. Gargauth is certainly known to traffic with tanar'ri now (his consort is a marilith) so perhaps he was playing for both sides of the Blood War way back in -10300 DR and perhaps that is a reason for his banishment from Baator.
Just a random thought, maybe i'm reading too much into it. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 05 Nov 2020 : 02:53:21
I almost got super sidelined thinking about how Gargauth would be an ally, but yeah it's definitely a formatting issue that got sleyvas caught up.
SO YEAH? Gargauth as an enemy of the Eye is EXTREMELY random! I couldn't find an explanation of it anywhere, and The Drow of the Underdark (if that is the only entry of the term) gives still no backstory for Gormauth Souldrinker! I gotta say it certainly sounds like a title a Fiend in the Hells would have.. can you imagine? Ghaunadaur, somehow stealing a title from this odd-one-out archdevil. Gargauth loses access to some obscure source of power. Gargauth gets booted out of the Hells. Ghaunadaur gains power. Seriously WHAT is the relationship between these two- it seems completely unexplained! Other than cults v cults and demons v devils..
....I will have to dive back into Cloak and Dagger because I don't recall.. Has published content ever listed the date when Gargauth was removed from his position in the Hells? Can you imagine if it lined up with an obscure power grab by the Eye?
..also with the formatting controversy out of the way..
quote:
If Gargauth is tied in with Clan Hune (which I believe is responsible for the Calimshan Crystal and the Living Gem Wars and all of that nonsense due to their hidden temple to Ghaunadaur in the region which was then raided by a certain wizard ages later) then I am even more fascinated with Gargauth's relationship to Ghaunadaur...
|
| Tigon |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 23:31:49
HAHA! The game is afoot once again!!! |
| AJA |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 21:49:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Only Bwimb and Moander were (still are, in the case of Moander, I guess) his allies. The rest are listed under foes.
Not in my copy, as the aforementioned list is a cut and paste.. That being said, I'm looking at a PDF, and my real books I don't see on the shelf (so they must be packed away OR they got stolen/lost). Worryingly I don't see F&A, P&P, demihuman deities, or monster mythology on my shelf, so I hope they're in a box.
Odd. I just checked my copy, and it does indeed differentiate between Allies and Foes... But I can't copy/paste from it. My pdf is a scan I got from Paizo in 2005, when the WotC/TSR pdfs were available through them (and before all pdfs were yanked in response to 4E books being pirated), and it is most definitely not OCR'ed.
Still irked about WotC doing that. Now, if I want to get a better copy of that pdf, I've got to purchase it again -- even though I already purchased it once.
Yeah, Irennan and Wooly are correct. Here's a snapshot from my print 1998 copy of Demihuman Deities.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 16:20:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Only Bwimb and Moander were (still are, in the case of Moander, I guess) his allies. The rest are listed under foes.
Not in my copy, as the aforementioned list is a cut and paste.. That being said, I'm looking at a PDF, and my real books I don't see on the shelf (so they must be packed away OR they got stolen/lost). Worryingly I don't see F&A, P&P, demihuman deities, or monster mythology on my shelf, so I hope they're in a box.
Odd. I just checked my copy, and it does indeed differentiate between Allies and Foes... But I can't copy/paste from it. My pdf is a scan I got from Paizo in 2005, when the WotC/TSR pdfs were available through them (and before all pdfs were yanked in response to 4E books being pirated), and it is most definitely not OCR'ed.
Still irked about WotC doing that. Now, if I want to get a better copy of that pdf, I've got to purchase it again -- even though I already purchased it once. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 15:46:39
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Only Bwimb and Moander were (still are, in the case of Moander, I guess) his allies. The rest are listed under foes.
Not in my copy, as the aforementioned list is a cut and paste.. That being said, I'm looking at a PDF, and my real books I don't see on the shelf (so they must be packed away OR they got stolen/lost). Worryingly I don't see F&A, P&P, demihuman deities, or monster mythology on my shelf, so I hope they're in a box. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 14:58:57
Only Bwimb and Moander were (still are, in the case of Moander, I guess) his allies. The rest are listed under foes. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 14:37:24
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I personally have been engrossed in Clan Hune and other Ilithyr lore for the whole year. I am excited to hear about Gargauth having a connection to that family because Clan Hune has an extensive history involving Ghaunadaur. I read the 5e book Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus and was clueless as to the nature of the Shield of the Hidden Lord which appeared in the story. I was lead back to said shield (and Gargauth) because I was studying the trail of Ghaunadaur's many titles. I could not find the reason behind one of these titles- "Gormauth Souldrinker". The only connection I saw was a posting on the Forgotten Realms wiki that had no citation. The post said that Ghaunadaur stole the title of Gormauth Souldrinker from Gargauth. In-fact the first appearance of this title Gormauth Souldrinker is in Demihuman Deities, which lists (with no reference in the text otherwise) among Ghaunadaur's enemies.. Gargauth.
If Gargauth is tied in with Clan Hune (which I believe is responsible for the Calimshan Crystal and the Living Gem Wars and all of that nonsense due to their hidden temple to Ghaunadaur in the region which was then raided by a certain wizard ages later) then I am even more fascinated with Gargauth's relationship to Ghaunadaur...
Thank you for the thread necromancy. I wish we had someone here who worked on Demihuman Deities who could tell us why they listed Gargauth as an enemy of Ghaunadaur and where the title of Gormauth Souldrinker truly came from. I always assumed it was vague and for the DM to decide but..
Wait... what? You made me just doublecheck demihuman deities. It says Gargauth is an ally, not an enemy. The name Gormauth Souldrinker comes from the original drow of the underdark, but nothing is ever said about the name other than its another name. To my knowledge, there's not a whole lot of enmity between Gargauth and Ghaunadaur (at least no more than there would be between two conniving and evil priesthoods vying for power).
From drow of the underdark
Most humans find the worship of Ghaunadaur (also known as "The Elder Elemental God," "The Elder Eye," or "Gormauth Souldrinker") disgusting, but there are secret, subterranean altars and cults to the Eye all over Toril, particularly in the older and more degenerate lands of the Sword Coast South, Thay, and Kara-Tur.
What I find interesting are all the allies that I see listed, because some of these I would call indifferent or even hateful to Ghaunadaur. For instance Eilistraee and the Seldarine. I also doubt that Lolth (listed twice btw) and Selvetarm would be big fans. I'd also find it hard to figure the duergar gods, Laduguer and Deep Duerra, liking him. I wouldn't call the list mislabeled however, because things like moander, blibdoolpoolp, mind flayer deities, other insane/far realm entities, etc... do kind of make sense. I think this list should be taken with some skepticism and chalk it up to Eric or someone else being tired and bleary eyed (which considering all the great work in this, hey stuff happens), or simply a cut and paste error that got missed.
From Demihuman Deities
ALLIES: Bwimb (dead), Moander (dead) Deep Duerra, Eilistraee, Gargauth, Laduguer, Lolth, the Seldarine, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Lolth, Malar, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Blibdoolpoolp, the Blood Queen, Diinkarazan, Diirinka, Great Mother, Gzemnid, llsensine, Ilxendren, Laogzed, Maanzecorian (dead), Psilofyr |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 05:05:28
Seeker Tigon,
No problem of course good sir. It would never be a problem, but this year makes it even more understandable for sure! I've apologized to a fair number of sages myself for not having responded for months.
Fortunately, the fine, learned individuals here have been gracious in their understanding.
quote:
I picked up LoI several months back but with everything going on I havent had chance to crack into it yet. I'll do so with haste!
I find you will love it. I absolutely loved reading that, as I have a couple of times through now.
quote:
As a side note, looks like you're just over on the other side of the state. When once this virus crisis abates, if you ever made it over to the Emerald City for PAX or anything similar, let me know. I'd love to grab a drink or a bite to eat and chat about some lore!
I am indeed over in Spokane. Are you in Seattle, or just near there I take it? I would absolutely love to meet up with you and talk some Realms lore! If you shoot me a PM on here with your email, I'll save it and keep you mind when I get over that way for sure.
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 04 Nov 2020 : 03:15:47
I personally have been engrossed in Clan Hune and other Ilithyr lore for the whole year. I am excited to hear about Gargauth having a connection to that family because Clan Hune has an extensive history involving Ghaunadaur. I read the 5e book Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus and was clueless as to the nature of the Shield of the Hidden Lord which appeared in the story. I was lead back to said shield (and Gargauth) because I was studying the trail of Ghaunadaur's many titles. I could not find the reason behind one of these titles- "Gormauth Souldrinker". The only connection I saw was a posting on the Forgotten Realms wiki that had no citation. The post said that Ghaunadaur stole the title of Gormauth Souldrinker from Gargauth. In-fact the first appearance of this title Gormauth Souldrinker is in Demihuman Deities, which lists (with no reference in the text otherwise) among Ghaunadaur's enemies.. Gargauth.
If Gargauth is tied in with Clan Hune (which I believe is responsible for the Calimshan Crystal and the Living Gem Wars and all of that nonsense due to their hidden temple to Ghaunadaur in the region which was then raided by a certain wizard ages later) then I am even more fascinated with Gargauth's relationship to Ghaunadaur...
Thank you for the thread necromancy. I wish we had someone here who worked on Demihuman Deities who could tell us why they listed Gargauth as an enemy of Ghaunadaur and where the title of Gormauth Souldrinker truly came from. I always assumed it was vague and for the DM to decide but.. |
| Tigon |
Posted - 03 Nov 2020 : 22:27:18
I am very gracious sage! I apologize for missing this response, 2020 has been crazy and Ive just now had a moment to return to the keep here.
I picked up LoI several months back but with everything going on I havent had chance to crack into it yet. I'll do so with haste!
As a side note, looks like you're just over on the other side of the state. When once this virus crisis abates, if you ever made it over to the Emerald City for PAX or anything similar, let me know. I'd love to grab a drink or a bite to eat and chat about some lore!
Cheers!
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Tigon,
LoI is definitely the correct source, starting on page 25.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Where is this referenced? Id like to read up on this. Even a google search for Shield of Silvam yielded next to nothing.
PS I'm repurposing my 'Unveiling the Hidden Lord' thread as an organized repository (in as much chronological order as possible) for everything about the Lord Who Watches
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 17:40:41
Seeker Tigon,
LoI is definitely the correct source, starting on page 25.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Where is this referenced? Id like to read up on this. Even a google search for Shield of Silvam yielded next to nothing.
PS I'm repurposing my 'Unveiling the Hidden Lord' thread as an organized repository (in as much chronological order as possible) for everything about the Lord Who Watches
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 16:13:59
Yeah i never bother referencing the lore i just copy out large swathes of text and organise it into topics.
Empires of the shining sea
Lands of intrigue
Empire of the sands
Cloak and dagger
They are probably the four main resources for anything tethyr,calimshan related. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 14:07:06
Probably the Lands of Intrigue Boxed set from the 2E Era. |
| Tigon |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 04:41:49
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Where is this referenced? Id like to read up on this. Even a google search for Shield of Silvam yielded next to nothing.
PS I'm repurposing my 'Unveiling the Hidden Lord' thread as an organized repository (in as much chronological order as possible) for everything about the Lord Who Watches |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 17:29:25
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it.
Lhaeo was Elminster's scribe, not his apprentice. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 15:22:37
Well it was made for King Silvam then later given to the Bormuls then it was stolen from the crypt of King Strom and finally it was restored to Tethyr by the now King Haedrak (Elminster's former apprentice Lhaeo) although I've no idea how he got hold of it. |
| Tigon |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 12:06:51
Hey Dazzerdal.... Ive yet to be able to find any information on what happened to the Shield of Silvam. Where and when was it last seen? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 14:53:53
I think people like a mystery and trying to solve it. We know Ed has hidden lots of links and we like it even more when he acknowledged the links we make or his links we have discovered.
Gargauth is just one such mystery. There are plenty of others out there. If you start reading the lore and adding your own stuff then he may just pop by and nod his head or smile knowingly which makes it all worthwhile. |
| Tigon |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 13:51:44
I'll admit that I'm a bit surprised that Gargauth is such a hot topic being as though he's still so rather obscure. Then again, perhaps that's precisely why. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 13:46:54
There are a few topics guaranteed to get a response on the halls. Anything god related is one of them. Gargauth, the Dark Three, Mystra and Shar are the most popular for responses.
I will happily postulate and theorise on anything faerun bound. I steer clear of true gods and anything planes related because my treatment of them is apocryphal in these halls.
I will be looking into rathguul tonight and adding it to my site on Unther somewhere as dragons have been heavily involved in Unther's early years.
I like the idea of rathguul being bound to gargauth somehow. Im wondering perhaps if Rathguul was imprisoned with Gargauth but perhaps escaped when the shield was created.
Regarding the means of destruction, all artefacts were given mostly impossible means to destroy them as plothooks for DMs for further adventures, but burying the shield in the pit beneath peleveran is surprisingly easy. Im wondering if perhaps this means of destruction is false and will just release Gargauth completely. Gargauth has spread the rumour so that those who acquire the shield will invariably choose the easy option and will just make him more powerful.
Perhaps there is a vestige of Gargauth (an echo) left in the pit and rejoining the majority in the shield and the remnant in the pit is the only means of making him whole again.
Ive been having thoughts about the current guardian of the shield. I forget his name but i know he is left mysterious. In considering have him be one of the original people to find the shield (maybe Tithklar Illehune) who was corrupted into a shadow of Gargauth do he looks and behaves just like him and is essentially immortal unless slain.
|
| Tigon |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 13:26:05
@dazzlerdal - This thread of yours is the artifact that drew me here. I'm ecstatic that you're still so active as I've got a plethora more questions, theories and plot hooks to bounce off you.
I feel quite honored too in that, ive only been roaming the keep here for less than 48 hours and have already been able to point out information to one of the sages they had previously missed. XD |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 13:14:33
Ooh i never noticed Rathguul. Ive been looking for dragon overlords of the south and rathguul fits the bill.
The wyrmcaves beneath the sharawood house a family of dragons. If they are blue (cant recall which colour right now) then im making rathguul their leader |
| Tigon |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 12:38:17
ARISE!
*cheeky grin*
Interesting how quick the cast time is on a "Resurrect Thread" spell, though the components required to do so properly takes some effort.
That said, I do have a thing or two to contribute here.
Let me preface this here that I'm no expert, and that I have been absent from the realms for around 20 years (pursuit of professional career, musical side-career, relationships etc.) and have recently returned. I was vaguely introduced to Gargauth's story arc, attempting to steal Faerun and make it the 10th level of Baator in an online role playing chat... and it stuck with me all of these 20 years. In that time ive periodically had my interest fanned a bit and have learned bits and pieces about the Blood War, but more details on Gargauth had always elluded me until this past week when I have been deeply active in research as I finally have the time, motivation, and resources to run a campaign and have always wanted to pursue this arc.
That said, if i'm waaay off base here, please correct me i'm just here putting pieces of this ancient mystery together.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Gargauth, in his apparent role of Asmodeus' assassin, was tasked with tracking down Astaroth after he was unmasked as an Abyssal lord and fled the Hells. Perhaps Astaroth was building a power base in Narfell and gaining divine power through human worship there (and from creatures on different worlds simultaneously). Perhaps, Gargauth learnt of this and manipulated a cabal of Narfelli demonbinders to summon Astaroth to the Prime where Gargauth was waiting for him and slew him, taking his guise and fooling Astaroth's unwitting mortal worshippers.
P&P states that his secret power is that Gargauth "can fully absorb the power of any baatezu he utterly destroys while in the Realms. Hence if Gargauth slays a baatezu who has been summoned to the realms, he gains no benefit, but if the fiend is physically present on the plane (perhaps having entered via a magical gate), he can absorb its power."
This leads me to believe that Astaroth must have willfully been actually present on the Material Plane as Gargauth would not have been able to absorb his power if he was summoned there.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Anyway, that's my new thinking of what happened. I always wondered why the Cult of the Dragon suddenly decided to expand to Peleveran which is miles away from anywhere.
Again, this is fairly easily explained from what i can decypher.
So its already been mentioned that:
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Under Garguath's whisperings, Algashon was influenced to turn the attention of the Cult of the Dragon south.
When Algashon was ordered to send someone to an unknown settlement in the far flung corners of Faerun, Algashon chose his most dangerous rival and essentially exiled him to Peleveran in the Shaar.
Little did he know that Gargauth himself was waiting in Peleveran, and he was disappointed that Algashon did not come in person, plus he needed enough power to shatter the very earth he was trapped in so he needed godlike powers or a flight of dragons to do his bidding.
Ok sure, but what would draw the Cult of the Dragon... anywhere? How did he lure the Cult, even with two dozen of their powerful members being manipulated by him. How did they sell this jouney to the greater cult?
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Usually, the Cult of the Dragon expands somewhere when they discover potentially recruitable dragon(s) nearby.
Of course, how they happen to stummble on this is another matter.
The answer lies right in, again P&P page 23:
"Gargauth is a loner. His few servants are undead and other creatures he can control with his charm monster ability, such as snakes and blue dragons He is often encountered astride Rathguul, a great blue wyrm with maximum hit points who serves as his steed as part of an ancient contract..."
Seems reasonable to me that, since Rathguul has been bound to Garguath since some unspecified ancient time, it would stand to reason he's been around the entire time. My theory here is that while Gargauth was trapped in the Pit beneath Peleveran for a millenia, doesnt seem far fetched to think he may have commanded Rathguul to set up his lair somewhere adjacent to or nearby the pit. Whether it be Rathguul's normal hunting, or being commanded by Gargauth to be make sure he is sighted a few times, the lure of the possibility of engaging a great blue wyrm would have been hard for CotD to resist.
On to the matter of him being trapped in the Shield.
Im my previous thread, dazzlerdal commented:
quote:
Gargauth is now a demipower trapped entirely within that shield and is completely hidden from everyone and impossible to destroy. Its the perfect place to hide.
But then I found elsewhere on these forums the 3 means of destroying the shield:
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The Shield must be subject to a disintegration spell cast by the long dead Count Vizera Zahyra Bardson-Ithal, creator of the Shield of Silvam.
The Shield must be buried within the Dark Pit of Maleficence beneath the Landrise and the ruins of the capital city of Peleveran.
The Shield must be bathed in the blood on an Abyssal Lord of the Tanar’ri and the shattered pieces dropped into the River Styx.
Now none of this says WHAT happens if the shield is destroyed. Does it in turn destroy Gargauth, or would it instead free him?
Now, since Zahyra is long dead, despite the great theorycrafting that have been done over the connection between Zahyra, the Shield and Gargauth (and its very relevant historical associations) we can rule out the first because Zahyra is long dead... unless there was chronomancy going on.
So lets take a look at the second two.
"The Shield must be buried within the Dark Pit of Maleficence beneath the Landrise and the ruins of the capital city of Peleveran."
Ok so, wouldnt this just result in trapping Gargauth in the pit, again? If thats the case then we can assume destruction of the Shield does not destroy Gargauth but releases him (presumably into the Pit again in this case).
So lets look at the last one.
"The Shield must be bathed in the blood on an Abyssal Lord of the Tanar’ri and the shattered pieces dropped into the River Styx."
Hmmmmmmmmmm well, since Gargauth is known to obey, to the letter a pact, but will twist the spirit of it whenever the opportunity presents itself to further his own goals this one is intriguing.
A few things have been speculated (though unless im mistaken, not confirmed) elsewhere on these forums:
Graz'zt was actually the son of Asmodeous and Pale Night.
Graz'zt was originally a devil sent to the Abyss on a campaign against the demons in the Blood War.
Gargauth may have been in cahoots with Graz'zt, playing both sides of the Blood War against each other, which may be the reason for his exile from the 9 Hells by Asmodeous. But could there be more to it?
Could it be that Gargauth convinced Graz'zt that he would never find true power in Baator as Asmodeous was in power and the other Lords of 9 were well established. Could he then have convinced Graz'zt that his only way to power was to be corrupted by the chaos of the Abyss and become a Demon Prince. Asmodeous' anger at Gargauth could then be 2 fold: Betraying him and corrupting his son (Lord of Hell or not, Graz'zt would have been a fine Archdevil and General of Hell) and playing both sides of the Blood War against them.
Now lets go further to say Gargauth not only tricked Graz'zt into being corrupted, but was able to enter into a pact with him in exchange for the power he sought.
That pact could have been specific or an undefined favor in the future. Gargauth could all upon this pact to have Graz'zt spill his own blood (That of a Tenar'ri Abyssal Lord) and bathe the Shield in it, then cast the shattered pieces into the River Styx (which just so happens to run through all 3 of the layers of Azzagrat.)
This event would put Gargauth free from the Shield and in the River Styx, which will eventually, return him to Baator. As such this event would need to happen in tandum with The Unveiling so that by the time he arrived in Baator, the 10th level was waiting for him and Gargauth would reign as the 10th, and supreme Lord of Hell, over throwing Asmodeous (as each layer of hell is ruled by the one below it).
Additionally, from the time which he was exiled, then trapped until now (5e time) Gargauth has had ample time to deploy his clergy and agents into nearly every organization on Faerun: the Church of Bane, Cult of the Dragon, Governments of Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan. Its likely he could easily make a pact with the Night Masks to help them in their plot to raise a kingdom of Vampires in exchange for their worship, and sticking to the letter of that contract he very well would, thought it may not be all they hoped when the entire continent exists in Baator... but that might not be a terrible thing for Lawful Evil vampires who've spent their time manipulating their local government in true Gargauthian fashion.
Furthermore, he could likewise have infiltrated Asomdeous' clergy as well, convincing them that he no longer wished to be worshiped by name 'Asmodeous' but simply as 'The Devil' or 'The Lord of Hell', this way when Garguath succeeds in stealing Faerun, creating the 10th layer of Baator, becoming the Lord of Hell, by default all of Asmodeous' worshipers who were convinced to honor 'The Lord of Hell', would now be worshiping Gargauth causing Asmodeous to fall from godhood and Gargauth to ascend into his place.
And if all this were to happen, what would this mean to the Blood War? Would a 10th level of Baator sway the war in favor of the Devils? Or if he was playing both sides against each other all along? Could he continue his pact with Graz'zt and unite the conquer the lower planes. Either way I imagine ultimately this would lead to an all out Lower Plane assault on the Upper Planes.
Again, maybe I'm way off here... ive been absent for faaaar too long and have way more books than I care to catch up on. And sure I have gaps to fill, especially those extending further back. So at this point I'm merely theorizing partially based on the cannon references I do have, and partially based on the vast wealth of knowledge and theories here at CandleKeep.
But based on all this it is my novice opinion, that Gargauth could be the greatest threat to the Realms, whenever it may be that he decides to finally make his move.
I have 2 theories on why we may haven't seen much from Ed or anyone else on this though:
Either
1) He's leaving Gargauth hidden in the background for creative and crafty DM's to utilize in manners much like these, and actually the obfuscated lore about him lends itself EXACTLY to being used in this way AND makes the building of the campaign as much fun as running it with all of the obscure research and theorizing involved.
2) He's got one hell of a campaign adventures or series of novels planned for the future. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 09:17:06
Well i'm not looking for holes, just new light on previous lore given the developments we have had in 3rd edition.
And the first things that strike me are the description of Slarkrethel's origins, and Ascarle's origin. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 01:10:13
Not many holes in that one. I recall we stitched up the Kraken Society fairly tightly once Eric brainstormed the hook with the illithids.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 20:39:00
Well short of THO turning up and dropping a bombshell on us about Gargauth's imprisonment I cant find anything more from the info we have.
Looks like I will have to move onto the next section of Cloak and Dagger - The Kraken Society. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 12:06:02
So, what this would hint at would be that the "Snarling Shield of Aziz" was maybe originally made to contain a certain type of genie (for instance an efreeti)? Maybe it was even created to hold a powerful Sultan or Pasha of the Efreeti and left empty as a threat. If it was switched from the LE fiery efreeti to the LE (also somewhat fiery) baatezu by Hilather, I could buy that. Another option could be that Hilather actually freed the efreeti lord who was bound in the shield, and as a result earned his gratitude. Maybe this efreeti lord works with Hilather/Halaster still? I wonder if this efreeti lord (if he exists) was involved in the salamander war in Thay? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 08:33:51
Well it might not be canon for the realms but i always treat it as such |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 02:27:38
I think you are right Dazzlerdal; Zahyra should have a role in here somewhere. Perhaps she is the initial creator of the shield and it was a prototype for the Shield of Silvam. It could have sat in the Tethyrian royal vaults (brought out only for battles where it was entrusted to whatever war leader was leading the clans/armies of Tethyr in the king's absence) and then passed to the Shoon with their usurping of power in Tethyr. The Qysar Shoon III loaned it to Hilather as a template after a tour of the Shoonite treasure chambers (the outer ones where the average stuff was kept) and his pledge to bring the Qysar thirteen shields in exchange for the lore he sought. When he delivered on his promise 4 years later, he didn't bother to return the shield given to him and the new Qysar had no knowledge that he had the Snarling Shield of Aziz in his possession.
The rest can then follow. I don't like the idea of the Vizera being evil or corrupted. If she has the power to destroy the Shield of the Hidden Lord, that should be because she is one of the good guys in my book.
Oh and nothing I write or say is "canon" for the Realms. Feel free to use/ignore/modify my musings at your leisure. Your ideas are as good as mine every day of the week. Cheers.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Jul 2014 : 21:55:27
I am at a real quandary here. I consider all GK lore to be canon and have never ignored it, yet I love the idea of Gargauth tempting Zahyra Ithal so much that I may have to just this once. Or perhaps there is a way I can reconcile both.
I never picked up on the fact that the demonshields all came with a demon included, I always assumed they were used by the wielders to bind demons (they certainly would have been more useful that way). However I see now from reading Kuraltaar that I was wrong and they were indeed all demonbound on creation.
The idea of a blank demonshield is brilliant. Something left in his abandoned tower in Torsil. Something he abandoned because it didn't work initially, was somewhat flawed perhaps. Maybe it was the first shield and didn't work because it was the wrong shape and metal (the hidden shield is round and made of mithril - the demonshields are diamond shaped and made of an alloy of Baatorian ores).
And I think there may be a reason why Zahyra is part of the conditions of destruction for the Hidden Shield. Calishite sorcerers had been working on binding magics for centuries (according to the Kuraltaar writeup). Zahyra suddenly appears from nowhere in Tethyr in its early years as a very powerful sorceress. The chances are Zahyra was from Calimshan (escaped slave perhaps). Perhaps her researches into binding magics are something Hilather built upon in designing his Demonshields (maybe Zahyra even tried a binding process on a mithril round shield that Hilather later found and both used but couldn't get to work properly and so discarded). The fiend binding magics they used on this shield made it very easy for Gargauth to possess (Soneillon did it with a ship so why cant Gargauth do it with a shield) and after prolonged periods of possession the shield became an extension of himself.
The Narfelli bloodwar is pure genius by the way George and that definitely goes into my Narfell. I love that Astaroth is active in ancient Narfell and Gargauth kills him, drains him, and even takes his place.
I guess we will have to wait until Ed decides to tell us how/when/who Gargauth gets trapped in that pit. I'm happy to have a decent story of creation for the shield of the hidden lord though.
Maybe when I get round to looking at the Shaar (although there isn't much to look at) I will find some clues on Peleveran. |
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