| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 14:49:58
Dug out my copy of Cloak and Target to convert into word documents.
I never really looked at it before and it is packed full of awesome realmslore.
One thing that caught my eye is this quote below
quote:
What are Khelben’s and Laeral’s motivations for seeming to betray Those Who Harp?
Why is Cylyria Dragonbreast not moderating the passions of her lieutenants? Why is she not getting any healthier?
And in trying to answer those questions my brain has cooked up some strange events.
Does anyone know what is wrong with Cylyria or why Khelben deliberately broke with the Harpers.
It seems unlikely that Khelben would severe ties with such a useful resource merely because he had grown tired of Bran Skorlsun's vendetta. Khelben has always struck me as an incredibly practical man, largely above petty emotions and actions and if he could have kept the Harpers on his side to use their intelligence he would have.
The Harpers would have been an excellent tool to use to bolster his newly formed Moonstars, and indeed he could still have created the Moonstars while remaining part of the Harpers without them knowing (he had been building the resources in secret for longer than any living Harper of Twilight Hall. Note that the Harpers appear to actually be several organisations in one; The Harpers of Twilight Hall and the remains of the original Harpers that Elminster founded long ago and possibly the northern Harpers of that Khelben has shepherded for so long).
The only reason i can think of for Khelben breaking away from the Harpers completely is because that organisation had been infiltrated by evil beings somehow and he could no longer trust it completely. And that by breaking away from the organisation he hoped the evil would reveal itself somehow.
So if there is evil infiltrating the Harpers of Twilight Hall then who could it be?
And if not why did Khelben break from the Harpers and why is Cylyria not getting better? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 15:16:34
Ooh, just got to the section in Cloak and Dagger about the Heralds and a possible decades long infiltration of Gargauth into their organisation.
From their Gargauths corruptors could make their way into the Harpers since the two organisations are very closely allied.
I did find it strange that the Heralds lost two High Heralds (Huntsman and Manyshields) when the holders of those posts became corrupted (presumably by Gargauth).
This corruption isnt unusual in itself but the fact that they havent been replaced is.
I had a random thought, that what if the holder of the office is merely a holder for some kind of vast heraldic database (like an elven kiira device), and the reason they havent been replaced is that the receptacle/database itself has been damaged or destroyed (with the death of the holder of that office).
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 20:28:15
Lol, I never even realised it said Cloak and Target. That's predictive text for you.
The main problem with converting the information from the Herald is that I wont be doing a Spellplague. And since Steven Schend didn't know there was going to be a spellplague when he wrote Cloak and Dagger then Khelben couldn't have been working towards such a goal.
However what I do get from it is that Larloch may have been one of the Patricians, and since the hints are that Larloch may have been a chosen of Mystryl then perhaps Khelben was fighting against the Patricians who were the Chosen of Mystryl. |
| hobbitfan |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 19:27:53
Cards77: I think that might be a typo and they meant the Cloak and Dagger supplement. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 19:13:37
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Dug out my copy of Cloak and Target to convert into word documents.
I never really looked at it before and it is packed full of awesome realmslore.
Sorry dumb question: what is Cloak and Target? |
| Thorn Illance |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 17:06:54
So the formation of the Moonstars was in preparation of the Spellplague. Khelben didn't even tell Laeral about it, even though she tried to get more info out of him using sex. But that's because Midnight told Khelben not to tell anyone.
Tough to integrate that into a 1370s campaign, because it was so secret. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 14:14:47
Interesting. I shall have to have a think as to how that could be applied to the 1370 timeline.
Thankyou for the information |
| Thorn Illance |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 04:29:38
So Khelben formed the Moonstars to destroy Candlekeep. Because the combined Weave-Force of Candlekeep's Wards and Myth Drannor's mythal is enough Weave for to completely annihilate Toril. |
| Thorn Illance |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 04:23:02
Harper Schism:
Khelben knew that he had to be prepared to channel the remnant Weave-Force in Candlekeeps Wards to thwart Larloch and two other Waiters in Darkness, and this could only be accomplished by making Laeral and Austriel scour Candlekeep for his secret books for 100 years, while copying other non-Khelben scribed books... whichvwere aming thhose not the six books by Khelben that Elminster read. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 19:41:29
Now you are just teasing. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 19:13:38
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Perhaps Khelben has convinced his fellow chosen of his view of what's coming in the future and the formation of the Moonstars, his sacrifice at Rhymanthiin (leaving Lateral alone to raise their two newborn children) and Laeral's sudden disappearance at about the time when said children could begin looking after themselves (and the NDAs regarding them) are all connected.
It stinks to the Seven Heavens of secrets and subtleties to me.
It does, doesn't it?  |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 18:38:37
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. You scribes might want to read The Herald, Ed's latest novel. There's an interesting scene wherein Elminster argues with two of the Sisters, and there are some revelations regarding what Khelben foresaw, and why he did what he did . . .
love,
THO
Well, now, I'll have to get a copy of The Herald sooner than expected just to read that scene.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 21:37:18
Just had a reply from Steven Schend that is much more illuminating than it might seem
quote:
Can't really expand too much on in-depth reasons for Khelben's break with the Harpers. Part of the meta-thinking behind the scenes was it was a way to make him more distinct from Elminster and the other Chosen in that he's shown to not play well with others (not under his thumb).
Another easier reason I tried to hint at in Blackstaff (novel) was his need to draw fire away from others onto himself. Thus, those he marshalled into the Moonstars were, as he made himself, stalking horses of sorts to draw danger and risk away from others he felt were less able to handle some of the evils the Harpers were thwarting.
One of the simpler things therein was the constant personality friction between Khelben and Bran Skorlsun; even if they're both great heroes, it doesn't mean they'll like each other or get along. Then again, if Bran's the focal point AND he's an obvious reason why Khelben and others are leaving the Harpers, maybe K was trying to point out something about Bran to others while never saying so aloud. (I.E. Is Bran possessed? Influenced by a dire artifact? Replaced by a shapechanger?) All or any of these things are possible....or none of them, if you've a better idea that works better for your campaign.
While I lament that they put short shrift to the Manshoon Wars, the Harper Schism was always meant to be shadow play behind shadow play and something for DMs to find the answers themselves. The fact that there are multiple interpretations to why Khelben did any of this is the main reason it is in print as it is--it leaves the widest possibilities open for campaigns to make use of the plot as a spring board for bigger things.
Hope that helps a bit more; if you want, feel free to copy this onto the thread(s) in question to share the answer(s) around. I have to get back to work so I can't do so myself and am apt to forget to do so myself later.
Be well, and take care.
Steven
Khelben separating so he could turn attention to himself because he felt only he was strong enough to endure it is an angle I had not considered.
By separating and appearing to do nothing (while secretly creating a new organisation) means that every evil doer on the planet will be trying to discover what he is doing and then focusing all their resources on this new secret organisation.
It is the perfect ruse when he is really doing it just for the sake of doing it.
As for the Inquisition, Cylyria's sickness and other stuff going on in the Harpers. Well it looks like that is another story that Khelben may not have even been aware of. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 20 Jun 2014 : 01:24:00
I can't wait for my copy. That's one of the things I love about Ed's fiction - the countless explanations, large and small, that he weaves into his prose on "issues" in the Realms. I find at least 2-3 per novel which directly link back to fanbase gripes about this or that being unclear or "not right". Love the man.
-- George Krashos
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| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 03:11:47
What Lady THO said, it's one of the best scenes in the book. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 18 Jun 2014 : 02:03:03
Heh. You scribes might want to read The Herald, Ed's latest novel. There's an interesting scene wherein Elminster argues with two of the Sisters, and there are some revelations regarding what Khelben foresaw, and why he did what he did . . .
love,
THO |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 22:18:17
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The only reason i can think of for Khelben breaking away from the Harpers completely is because that organisation had been infiltrated by evil beings somehow and he could no longer trust it completely. And that by breaking away from the organisation he hoped the evil would reveal itself somehow.
It's rather strained. At least, without an implicit assumption that Khelben is the shiniest beacon who stands on top, sees beyond everyone else and whatever he does is automatically right.  While that's not a new idea... It's a good time to remember that:
1) A mysterious evil infiltration already happened before - and was not enough of a reason for this couse of action - during the whole mess with the Harper King.
2) Khelben and his consort are not the only active Chosen who oversee the Harpers.
3) His methods, more often than not, are only slightly more subtle than that of the Tarrasque. When there's some palpable enemy at whom one can point a finger, Khelben usually simply goes in hurling fire, whether himself or by proxy. Be it Colonel Cvor, Sammaster, nameless puny smokepowder smuggler, or a drow mage whose only fault was that she happened to attract interest of a certain power from Abyss for reasons unknown and who left his territory anyway. Thus, to make him jump through hoops because of some "evil beings", there must be a very good reason why his usual solution cannot be applied.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Now he has had to build the Moonstars into a largely information gathering organisation (nearly 80% of members - the senior and regional agents - are responsible for gathering and organising the information for Khelben, only 12 active agents actually undertake any missions).
That depends on how you spin it. To turn it around: those whom he managed to recruit into his team turned out to be enough to have a (more dedicated) spy network, yet a lot of them didn't have good potential as active agents.
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Also, there was that little aside there about Storm going on the warpath when she heard what Bran had done until Elminster took her aside, gave her a whispered explanation and then both of them left, leaving Sylune in their place. Is it a coincidence that Alustriel chose exactly the day of the trial to announce her resignation from the Harpers? Why was Elminster really avoiding Bran and Belhuar? Why are none of Khelben's fellow chosen giving evidence, positive or negative, about his activities over the centuries? Is it solidarity like the other Harpers seem to think or is it a conspiracy to get Khelben what he wants?
Indeed. Was it the direct reason, had it the same reason, or did other chosen simply use an opportunity?
Oh, and that's also where we remember that the main driving force of Bran's personal vendetta is Amnestria... and thus it's inherently connected to the elven politics. How about others simply didn't want to step into this more than necessary?
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The write-up in Cloak & Dagger makes it clear Khelben wants an organization of trusted agents that follow his orders to the letter without improvisation and autonomy in decisions (that's why most in the organization are just information gatherers), an organization over which he has complete control and in which he has the ultimate say on anything. All of these traits were completely absent in the Harpers.
And some others may have realized that his presence in the ranks will cause just enough of internal strain that it's going to split anyway. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 11:40:53
Well i will keep my fingers crossed. Even if he didnt actually commit anything to paper it would be great for just a few thoughts he has regarding the Harper Schism. It is one of the areas i will definitely look to expand on as a campaign arc that rocks the Harpers to its very core.
I'm still hoping its Moander making a comeback (i always figured Finder would rot from the inside out and morph back into Moander). I bet he would love to kill the organisation that Finder helped form. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 10:35:05
Well, I asked him similar questions only a few days ago as part of ... something else. As I now know, there was more in Steven's noggin re the Harper Schism that simply didn't make it into C&D. Hoperfully he'll get a chance to expand - but I do highlight that he has an alter ego: Captain Hook. Bar Mr Greenwood, Steven created more dangling realmslore hooks than anyone I know. Sometimes he just left them out there - this might be one of the big ones.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Jun 2014 : 08:39:10
Just a little bump in case Steven Schend comes on candlekeep this week/month.
I would love to hear anything you can remember about your thoughts when detailing the Harper Schism (especially anything about a big bad guy controlling things from behind the scenes).
Also where were you intending on going with the Harper Schism. Were the investigations going to turn nasty like the Inquisition in the real world, with Harpers being tried and hanged (or disintegrated) for any association with evil beings (intentional or not?) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2014 : 19:10:03
I believe it has something to do with the creation of the portal to Evermeet, the one that is the subject of the book Elfshadow. As I recall, the two meet in that book, and there is a reference to past issues that their mutual friends have been able to settle. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 17 Apr 2014 : 17:42:51
No details, just that in his time as a turncoat hunter, during his early career as a Harper, Bran kept finding clues that Khelben was up to stuff that could be perceived as betraying the organisation - Bran could never get enough evidence to accuse him of wrongdoing however, not until Khelben's theft of the Sceptre was revealed. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 17 Apr 2014 : 12:34:24
His appearances on the Sword & Song books also show a nice guy, IMHO. I don't think he is evil, he only diverges with Khelben for some reason I haven't found published. This is a good question: was the reason for their grudge ever canonized? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Apr 2014 : 12:16:34
Well just encountered a bit about Bran Skorlsun in the Waterdeep boxed set.
It talks about him meeting Jeryth Phaulkon and helping her destroy the tribe of gnolls that captured her. He then stays on to teach her and her fellow former captives woodcraft.
This does not sound like the witch hunter Bran Skorlsun in 1372, ergo he is being influenced in some fell way to behave like this.
Also still no word from Steven Schend, i don't see him on the boards very often these days. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 07:44:45
I think I will. I hope he still comes here |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 05:26:03
Maybe you should ask Steven Schend on his thread.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 19:13:06
Well cloak and dagger does say he never undertakes any action likely so I am inclined to agree he had planned it for a long time, but again the question is why.
For he whom honour and duty define, abandoning an organisation because it no longer fits your exact needs doesn't seem like something he would do unless he had no other choice or he was trying to help them.
Now that Hashimashadoo mentioned it, the fact that many of the Seven Sisters and prominent Harpers of the North and the Dalelands also split or distance themselves is again telling. I don't think any of them were in on Khelben's Moonstars plan but I think they knew about his plan to break with the Harpers.
It all adds up to me thinking there was something rotten in the Harpers of Twilight Hall.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 18:33:36
I agree with Demzer. The Harpers had gone astray from their original purpose, and Khelben needed a group under his direct control. Additionally, the Harpers are a good organization, and Khelben needed people who would get their hands dirty -- using methods that would sometimes go against Harper ideals.
Khelben is kind of a Batman-type: He does want what's best for people, but he'll employ tactics that goodly folks would sometimes balk at, to get it.
We never got to see the reasoning behind it (thanks, 3E FR design team  ), but I do think that Khelben's split from the Harpers was very deliberate and planned in advance. Maybe he just needed public separation for some reason, maybe it was designed to draw out someone... Or, knowing Khelben, it was most likely both, plus two or three other reasons. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 17:40:25
Personally, i don't think Khelben (and by extension Laeral, that in this kind of important decisions always backs him up) needed any more reason to just quit the Harpers beyond the fact they didn't suit his needs anymore.
After all, he always was a control freak and the surprising thing is that, being the Harpers were always way too much chaotic, he was a part of them for so long in the first place (probably thanks to the other Chosen's influence and at their request, especially Elminster's).
So i think in the end Khelben just had enough of this rag-tag bunch of wanna-be Elminsters and used the first excuse that came up to resign, having a back-up plan already in place and having already made arrangements with the other "important" fellow Chosens (Laeral, Alustriel and Elminster, Dove and Storm and Qilue are probably second-tier Chosens for him being no top tier archmages and the Simbul is just the crazy girlfriend of his best friend).
The write-up in Cloak & Dagger makes it clear Khelben wants an organization of trusted agents that follow his orders to the letter without improvisation and autonomy in decisions (that's why most in the organization are just information gatherers), an organization over which he has complete control and in which he has the ultimate say on anything. All of these traits were completely absent in the Harpers.
I think the Twilight Trio is just acting over petty emotions and pursuing blind vengeance against the "traitors" but in my campaign Qysar Shoon VII is responsible for the disarray of the Harpers of Twilight Hall and Cylyria's disease: Berdusk is right next door to Amn so the demilich is infiltrating/thwarting the plans of each secret organization that may threaten his bid for power in the region (he's going after the Runemasters of the Twisted Rune and is exerting some control over the Cowled Wizards of Amn so why the Harpers should be special snowflakes and be left alone by an uber-powerful genius of a schemer of a 37th level demilich? Not in my campaign, i say!) |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 16:55:28
It's definitely an interesting theory. Apart from Cylyria, all of the others can have their behaviour explained away by their publicly recognised personality flaws.
Is it mere coincidence that Ms Dragonbreast doesn't recover from her illness until it's too late to restore the issues that the schism caused?
We all know that Khelben is a 'by any means necessary' kind of guy and just about everyone except Laeral and the other chosen are afraid of him to a certain extent (rumours abound in Waterdeep that Khelben is keeping Laeral as a magical slave!). Maybe he was the one impeding Cylyria's recovery because she is the only person in Twilight Hall who could mellow the Twilight Trio's zeal.
Also, there was that little aside there about Storm going on the warpath when she heard what Bran had done until Elminster took her aside, gave her a whispered explanation and then both of them left, leaving Sylune in their place. Is it a coincidence that Alustriel chose exactly the day of the trial to announce her resignation from the Harpers? Why was Elminster really avoiding Bran and Belhuar? Why are none of Khelben's fellow chosen giving evidence, positive or negative, about his activities over the centuries? Is it solidarity like the other Harpers seem to think or is it a conspiracy to get Khelben what he wants?
Perhaps Khelben has convinced his fellow chosen of his view of what's coming in the future and the formation of the Moonstars, his sacrifice at Rhymanthiin (leaving Lateral alone to raise their two newborn children) and Laeral's sudden disappearance at about the time when said children could begin looking after themselves (and the NDAs regarding them) are all connected.
It stinks to the Seven Heavens of secrets and subtleties to me. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 15:32:27
I got the bit about his prophecy and needing another agency to combat it, and the formation of the Moonstars was inevitable and a long time in the planning.
That however didnt mean Khelben had to secede from the Harpers. He could have remained a Harper and created this new agency and then in his capacity as a Harper used the Intelligence he learned from them to help him in his role as head of the Moonstars.
Now he has had to build the Moonstars into a largely information gathering organisation (nearly 80% of members - the senior and regional agents - are responsible for gathering and organising the information for Khelben, only 12 active agents actually undertake any missions).
Now the Harper Schism did indeed provide a cover to allow him to create the Moonstars very easily under everyone's noses without anyone noticing, and he probably deliberately let the Harpers find out about his plan to give Fzoul the Sceptre (creating a book 2 hundred years ago and then secretly stealing the sceptre and placing a map of its location in the back of that book before trading it using an alter ego to a Zhent agent is not something you can discover easily unless you deliberately tell them about it).
I actually have a theory about Cylyria and how it is related to a growing evil within the Harper ranks (wouldnt be the first time it has happened, or indeed the second or third).
If there is an evil presence the first culprit would be Bran Skorlsun since he is pursuing selfish desires for revenge against Khelben and power of a master Harper, and he is destroying the organisation to do it.
However despite that he does not strike me as an evil mastermind and does not have the power to hide his nature from the other master Harpers (Obslin Minstrelwish and Belhuar have not noted him as being evil and indeed are performing his witch hunt for him).
Then there is the matter of Cylyria, whatever is wrong with her confounds the healing abilities of the chosen of Mystra and all the resources of the Harpers, so someone must be working against them to keep her ill.
The only person with constant access to her is Obslin who is madly in love with her, and again has not been picked up as an evil being by any of the other Master Harpers.
So we are looking for someone on the inside with full access to Cylyria who is powerful enough to confound Master Harpers and hide their true nature from them while thwarting attempts to heal Cylyria.
The only person i can think of left is Cylyria herself. It says in Cylyria's writeup in the code of the harpers that for many years she has been melancholy and no longer sings in front of anyone which most attributed to the loss of a loved one. However that strikes me as a significant personality change more than anything else. What if at some point in the past she was possessed or replaced by a greater doppelganger or infected with a seed of Moander or something equally dastardly that turned her evil, evil, evil.
She holes up in Twilight Hall so that no one gets to see her except for Obslinn. Any attempts at healing dont work because she isnt really sick she is just evil now. And so from the top she begins to spread evil and lies and treachery through the ranks of the Harpers, twisting it from the force of good it once was.
And thats why Khelben breaks away, he cannot locate the source of evil, but he knows it is in Twilight Hall and so he cannot trust the Harpers anymore or the information they provide.
Anyway its just a thought |
