| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 15:46:42
Reading the Cult of the Dragon sourcebook.
I came across the description of Sammaster's battle with Lathander's avatar.
I do love this section of the book, the description of the battle is awesome but i have to admit i have no idea what spells Sammaster is casting. I can guess at what Lathander is doing but not Sammaster.
So far i think the energy wheel Sammaster creates is some kind of time stop spell maybe.
The sliver of metal he pulls from "elsewhere" i would take a guess at him manipulating true names maybe (it seems daft that Sammaster would think a symbol of x spell word work on an avatar). True names seems like something ancient and powerful and it has definite power of mortals (the chosen all keep their true names secret).
What about the shards of metal tha explode, its got to be some awesome powerful stuff to damage an avatar maybe something from another plane or the far realm perhaps - Sammaster did like experimenting and creating mutations.
So anyone have any ideas what unknown powers Sammaster had at his disposal and used during this battle? |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 09:14:53
Well i'm trying to keep the cult of the dragon and church of Bane as separate entities because Algashon never managed to fully bring the cult into the fold of Bane's church. After Algashon's death in 1018 DR the two organisations went their separate ways and with the rise of Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim they actually come into conflict quite a bit after this period.
However, saying that. Before 1370 the church of Bane is not the Zhentarim and vice versa.
The church of Bane does not strike me as a subtle organisation, i would imagine them having large fortress temples (where they are allowed) like the one in Mourktar and Zhentil Keep.
Sembia allows evil faiths like Talos and Shar (found that in Elminster's Forgotten Realms - love that book). So i would imagine they allow any faith that doesnt impede trade.
We have mention of plenty of random faiths with shrines and worshippers, including Malar, Shar, Loviatar, Talos, Umberlee. Still nothing on Bane, if none of the above require hidden shrines why should Bane's church unless he did something very naughty (like try to topple the government).
I guess the distinction to be made is whether the church of Bane was a place of open worship but kept its extra curricular activities (like manipulating government) a secret which i hadnt thought of before. Or whether they were a secret underground religion hiding in the shadows. I think they were the former (until they did a naughty thing which Aurgloroasa and her night knives exposed).
That way they could be seen as a legitimate place of worship in Sembia and still do all the nasty stuff without people realising it through secret agents such as those placed in the Cult of the Dragon (and later in other organisations). That sounds a bit more like Bane's church to me. Ineffectual Braggards on the outside, but scheming evil genius' in the shadows using their network of agents and lay worshippers.
Curiously, the cult of the dragon mentions Algashon's doctrine of manipulating tyrants rather than being the tyrant yourself and implies that this spread throughout the church of Bane as Fzoul Chembryl was supposedly a strict adherent to this code. However something must have happened to him along the way (multiple possessions and meetings with various gods most likely) to make him think that he is actually the embodiment of the tyrant and should no longer be the manipulator behind the scenes. That prompts him to bump off Manshoon and take control of the Zhentarim, try to make it an affiliated order of the church of Bane and put the church in the centre stage of politics in the Moonsea and Inner Sea region. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 06:31:16
I really enjoyed your analysis but think you answered your own question here:
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So assuming the church of Bane operates openly in Sembia then in 1141 DR they must have had considerable political clout to torture and execute a Harper Agent in public in Selgaunt (such a thing may have prompted a political backlash but since the Harpers later assassinate the High Imperceptor of Bane i doubt the Sembian authorities did anything).
I see no basis for your assumption given your previous breakdown of the history of the Cult and the church of Bane's operations in Sembia. You note the fact that they have worshippers in government and operate in the context of "cells" and behind the scenes activities and then make a leap of logic and assume that the church of Bane was operating openly in Sembia. Quite simply, I don't think that it was, and this would certainly explain the lack of information on temples, shrines etc in the sources.
Good stuff and an enjoyable read.
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 11:33:39
Okay, so trying to figure out how the church of Bane, Cult of the Dragon and Sembia all fit together regarding their history (i am actually beginning to inwardly curse the Realms' interconnectedness, even though that is the bit i love best about it).
So we have information from Code of the Harpers that state Bane's church (and Bhaal, Myrkul, and Loviatar) came to the north (starting in Sembia so i assume North refers to lands north of the sea of fallen stars) from the Vilhon Reach.
There are repeated references tied to events around 900 - 1000 DR that Bane's church is in ascendence in the north.
quote:
Much of the early history of human exploration and life in the North is shaped and driven by the cruelty and greed of the followers of Bane. The worshippers of other evil creeds fell over each other in an effort to compete with the faithful of the Black Lord.
quote:
The clergy of Bane (under the ambitious man who was then the High Imperceptor, their titular head of all mortal clergy) moved to establish their own kingdom in the Moonsea North. Hunting Harpers became a popular sport among these evil brotherhoods;
Now the dates could be tied either to Stellac Benadi and Flostrens Hold in 750 DR or to Wedic Bdondar and Mulmaster in 920 DR. Given the statement about hunting harpers and history tie ins from the Ruins of Zhentil Keep i am pretty certain it is Wedic Bdondar and the founding of Mulmaster (Stellac Benadi's kingdom was founded underground and in secret for an unknown purpose of Bane that was never revealed, so the church must have established itself in Mulmaster to setup the Banite kingdom there).
Now given the dates it seems that by 900 DR the church of Bane was well established in Sembia as was the cult of the dragon.
quote:
The Harpers soon mobilized to infiltrate, disable, and destroy the Cult cell in Chondathan before Sammaster’s evil could thoroughly infest the newly formed country of Sembia. (Sembia was formed in 913 DR under the banner of Rauthauvyr the Raven, commander of the new nation’s military for the Overmaster, the elected merchant ruler of the nation.)
While they had some successes, they failed to destroy Shargrailar and could not prevent the spread of the Cult’s ideology across the face of Faerûn.
The cult of the dragon says that Algashon spread the cult into the western heartlands and the north after Sammaster's death and so after 916 DR the cult and the church of Bane spread throughout the North (which ties in with the above statements from the code of the harpers and the ruins of Zhentil Keep about the history of the north).
quote:
some followers remained loyal to the memory of the First Speaker and continued to operate openly, while others followed Algashon into secrecy and exile, first to Urmlaspyr and then west and north into the Western Heartlands and the North. Most cells were eventually forced by their enemies to follow Algashon into hiding or face extinction, which allowed the Banite theurge to return to Sembia in triumph, where he became first of the Wearers of Purple.
I reckon from 900 DR to 916 DR the cult of the dragon; which was well stocked with priests of Bane had a controlling influence in almost everything that occured in Chondathan (Saerloon) and Algashon and the church of Bane may have used the cult of the dragon in some way to kickstart the nation of Sembia (i realise before i said they may have delayed to formation but they could do both). Sammaster in his madness may have hindered the creation of Sembia by stealing their money and taxes.
The brigandry caused by the cults open actions may have contributed to Rauthauvyr the Raven feeling the need to police Sembia's countryside and Algashon may have even used the cults funds through the church of Bane to fund such an event (and in that way gain control over the fledgling nation of Sembia).
The Harpers saw this danger and moved to stop it but were only moderately successful in destroying the cult in Chondathan and killed Sammaster in 916 DR, but this merely caused the cult to change tactic when Algashon inherited rulership of the cult.
So 916 to 950 DR There must have been some kind of minor schism in the cult. Algashon and his banite faction of the cult moved to Urmlaspyr and spread west from there into the western heartlands and then up into the sword coast north and the savage frontier. With Algashon the church of Bane also spread.
It states the cult of the dragon with algashon went underground and i reckon Algashon used the church of Bane as a front to hide his secret society so that they appeared as religious pilgrims of a sort.
quote:
As Algashon ruled over the decades, he slowly brought more and more of Bane’s doctrines and philosophies into the Sembian branch of the Cult. While many of the followers he had brought west with him from Chondathan had no compunctions about this, many of those who joined the Cult later grew unsettled as Algashon steered the Cult farther and farther toward a seeming union with the church of Bane.
The cult of the dragon may even have operated as an allied holy order of sorts during this time for the church of Bane.
In 950 DR the cult of the dragon has over 100 cells spread across Faerun (one would conclude these are concentrated north of the sea of fallen stars and loyal to Algashon. And probably around this time he returns to find the openly operating cell in Chondathan disbanded after its conflict with the Harpers, Sembia, and other religions perhaps.
I think that establishes the church of Bane and the cult of the dragon very strongly in Sembia. Algashon particularly espoused the doctrine that the church of Bane should support tyrants from behind the scenes for the greater glory of Bane.
So it is entirely likely that both the church of Bane and the cult of the dragon had agents in various levels of government in Sembia.
It is curious to note that the cult of the dragon still maintains this level of infiltration but the church of Bane does not, and it may be down to the cult's status as a secret society and the fact that it operates behind other organisations.
Now we know that in 1018 DR the church of Bane and the cult of the dragon go their separate ways following the manipulations of Gargauth (who later around 1090 DR participates in an attack on the Harpers with the church of Bane) which results in the death of Algashon and many of the priests of Bane within the cult. The pragmatist faction takes hold in the cult from this point on and they eschew any ties to religious groups, although there were probably still a number of priests of Bane in the organisation in Sembia (they just fell out of favour).
So assuming the church of Bane operates openly in Sembia then in 1141 DR they must have had considerable political clout to torture and execute a Harper Agent in public in Selgaunt (such a thing may have prompted a political backlash but since the Harpers later assassinate the High Imperceptor of Bane i doubt the Sembian authorities did anything).
So how do we explain today that there is not a single reference to a priest, church or shrine of Bane in any sourcebooks with snippets about Sembia.
Something must have happened to remove the church from Sembia and i the only dates i have that might explain it is the sembian civil war from 1254 to 1256 DR which was instigated by Aurgloroasa.
Now it is mentioned that Aurgloroasa started this to weaken the cult of the dragon and probably cause them to look for other allies (such as her). It may also be that she used this event to finally eliminate any last trace of the church of Bane in the cult (meaning they would have to rely almost completely on her once she joined) and weaken the church of Bane's hold on Sembia.
So she starts a civil war using her organisation (the Night Knives) which severally weakens the cult of the dragon and she plants evidence that the whole thing was orchestrated by the church of Bane so that they could get their favoured candidate into the Overmaster's spot.
Thus church of Bane is booted out of Sembia (for a little while anyway), and the cult of the dragon gradually worms its way back into the echelons of power under Aurgloroasa's guiding hand. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 02:47:30
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So far i think the energy wheel Sammaster creates is some kind of time stop spell maybe.
Then no one would feel a thing. IMHO, looks more like some necromantic effect based on spell engine and something like ghoul touch - "the Weave is tied to life, therefore..."
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ooh, i like it, he did after all remove a body part and turn it to ash for his future reanimation as a lich, no reason that he wouldnt have tried to create items and weapons out of a gift of the gods (even before he became evil).
You treat it like it was some separate material stuck in his body. 
IIRC, the Mystra's Chosen always use silver fire when creating magic items, the practical effect is - it replaces the personal sacrifice of lifeforce.
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
Alustriel is half-Elven.
Quarter (human + half-elf). I.e. "merely" an elf-blooded human, so all half-elven kids are from elves. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 20:23:25
Really, I just assumed she was human, how bad am I. Oh well then that's perfect, there is a possibility she could be Sammaster's daughter then (although only a small possibility, but that's enough) |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 17:25:58
Alustriel is half-Elven. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 14:25:48
More disturbing thoughts brewing.
Sammaster and Alustriel had an intense relationship that lasted 3 years ending in 864 DR
What if that relationship had issue.
We know Alustriel had 12 sons and the dates of their birth may well be plotted already. However there are rumours that she has had daughters.
What is Sammaster and Alustriel had a child; a girl.
I found this passage in Cult of the Dragon about the sorority of the silver fire.
quote:
The Sorority of the Silver Fire was founded in the Year of
Bright Nights (985 DR) by the half-elven incantatrix Fetitia
Ledora, said to be the daughter of Alustriel Silverhand, and
Yhelfanna the Masked, a Rashemaar witch of the Hathran.
In the decade prior to their first meeting, the two incantatrixes
independently confronted the enduring legacy of
Sammaster#146;s madness in the form of powerful dracoliches
which sought to ravage their homelands: Everlund and
Rashemen, respectively. Both women felt compelled to
track down the source of this blasphemous contamination
of the Weave, a trek which led them to Sembia and the
secret temples of the Keepers of the Secret Hoard.
Could it be that this organisation was founded by his child.
The only stumbling block is that the woman in question is half elven, but we don't know Sammaster's heritage, he may have had elven blood in his veins if he was born in the Heartlands area (which is likely true), so this woman may have displayed a few slightly elven characteristics (pointed ears) in order to be called half elven. An increased lifespan could be more down to having two chosen as parents and so with pointy ears and a longer than normal life people assume she is half elf
It would have a delicious irony that the daughter of Sammaster who did so much to research metamagic founded an organisation of metamagic users dedicated to bringing about the downfall of her father's organisation. All without her being aware of the truth (or maybe she is).
Anyway just a random thought popping into my brain |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 12:02:35
I just had a very evil thought.
Sembia was founded in 913 DR by Rauthauvyr the Raven who created a standing army to police the roads.
The previous large army of mercs that would be used to create Sembia was destroyed in 884 DR.
Sammaster was resurrected by Algashon and began wandering Faerun in 875 DR collecting lore from Anauroch, the Raurin desert etc. He was established in Sembia by 902 DR when they created Shargrailar. The Rotting War in Chondat begins in 902 DR.
Now i have a quote from Cult of the Dragon that says the cult tithed 50% of all caravan goods in Sembia using Shargrailar as a weapon during the founding days of the cult.
So that means the cities that would be Sembia lose their entire mercenary force in 884 DR and a ton of cash no doubt to elves.
They then have to rebuild this money in 30 years to make another attempt but during that time they are losing 50% of their money to Sammaster and his Cult of the Dragon.
Im wondering if Sembia was desperate to cede from Chondath in 902 DR but didnt have the cash. Time passes and the Sembian cities note the reduction in taxes flowing into their coffers and the rise in illicit activity in the area and they strike a deal with the cult.
Or even better Rauthauvyr the Raven may have been a member of the cult of the dragon and was sponsored by them to raise his police force and supposedly bring law to the area (even though the law breakers were mostly cultists anyways).
That way when Sembia actually forms the Cult of the Dragon get more than a few of their friends into positions of power. Might explain why they are so powerful there today and throughout history.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 09:14:19
Oooh, oooh, oooh, just read a passage which confirms a recent suspicion of mine about the church of Bane and the Cult of the Dragon.
The history of the church of Bane detailed its spread from Sembia to the Western Heartlands and the North, despite the fact that most of the Imperceptors of Bane seemed to be concentrating on the Moonsea. The third Imperceptor of Bane; Herr Santolic is credited with expanding the church of Bane's influence into the Western Heartlands. He was imperceptor from 877 DR to 966 DR.
While reading the cult of the dragon it states that after the death of Sammaster in 916 DR the cult split into those loyal to Sammaster who remained in Sembia and continued their activities in the open. The other faction was loyal to Algashon Nathaire (priest of Bane) who took the organisation underground, first into the Western Heartlands, and then into the North.
So it seems that until 1018 DR (when Algashon died and the reformationalist faction and the church of Bane was weakened) that the activities and spread of the Cult of the Dragon and the Church of Bane complemented one another.
Even better, upon Sammaster's third return he raised Algashon back to life as a Banelich which confirms one of my earlier suspicions that Bane did not create all the Baneliches. Stellac Benadi was the 7th banelich in 844 DR, Tomar of Bane was the eighth banelich in 877 DR, Wedic Bdondar is the last banelich to be created by bane (but no number is given) in 1010 DR. We know there is a total of 35 baneliches, and what happens between 900 DR and 1000 DR, the cult of the dragon appears and it would appear that Algashon knew how to create baneliches because how else would Sammaster have known of it.
So i reckon in the 100 years between Sammaster's death and Algashon's death, Algashon goes travelling the Western Heartlands and the North spreading the word of Bane and creating cult of the dragon cells and creates himself a few banelich allies (with or without the permission of Bane himself; probably with).
Maybe someone in the cult finds out the method to create baneliches and continues it after Algashon's death. Again it cant be a coincidence that Algashon dies in 1018 DR and Wedic Bdondar was the last banelich created in 1010 DR by Bane himself.
After 1018 DR the baneliches created are by nutty cult wizards and have nothing to do with Bane and it begins to fracture his power too much (after all a piece of himself is invested in the lich) and so he stops creating them and sets his servants on a mission to kill the rogue baneliches. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 08:48:50
All throughout the history of the cult i notice it saying this dracolich was killed or destroyed (usually by spellfire) but occasionally by other dragons (the cell in luskan for instance.
However it is my understanding that a dracolich has a phylactery and so once its body is destroyed it can reform if a suitable replacement body is found.
The only problem is that it must consume 10% of its original body in order to reform. Now for certain dragons destroyed by spellfire (and likely incinerated) this might pose a problem if there are no remains at all, but even then these can be reconstructed with a wish spell.
So why are these destroyed dracoliches not being reformed? The limiting factor in reforming the dracolich is the need for a dragon body for the spirit to inhabit. Now that may have been a problem until 1370 ish DR when the cult occupied the Well of Dragons. After that point they have an unlimited supply of dragon bodies from which to make proto dracoliches.
Now the first dracoliches of the cult seemed to be the most powerful, Shargrailar, Rauthgothlor, etc, they were very old. A lot of the newer dracoliches seem to be younger dragons turned into dracoliches. So if the cult wants powerful dragons they should probably reform the destroyed original dracoliches.
The only reason i can think of this not happening is if my favourite dracolich Augloroasa is preventing it (in her bid to become one of the cult's leaders, which happens much later). She certainly has a part of what is needed to reform Shargrailar and i can understand her not wanting him to return because at the moment she is one of the most powerful dracoliches in existence. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 02:26:22
I always thought the wheel some sort of spell enhancing augmentation...like a spell focus. There are also particular spells that are Spell Engines that draw in spells cast in their area to be used by the controller to increase their power. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 16:50:43
Ooh, i like it, he did after all remove a body part and turn it to ash for his future reanimation as a lich, no reason that he wouldnt have tried to create items and weapons out of a gift of the gods (even before he became evil).
I did notice something in the sourcebook.
Sammaster 2.0 (the lich's first reappearance in Harrowsmouth) was likely in the form of an orc. I bet that irked him a little bit, no wonder he stayed hidden in his mountain home rather than returning to the cult cell in Sembia. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 16:41:34
Don't know, but since Sammaster was kinda crazy and paranoid even while being a Chosen of Mystra could it be he stored in some private demiplane artifacts created/modelled/enchanted with silver fire?
That's just speculation based on what little we know:
- he takes this thing from some kind of extradimensional space;
- this thing has magical markings (runes, symbols and signs), glints "with a faint, silvery sheen", turns into light and magical energy once destroyed and is able to wound the avatar of a greater god;
- Sammaster had access to silver fire;
- Silver fire being part raw weave and part Mystra's essence (great banalization, but it's to get the point across) is probably able to harm gods or at least avatars;
So for me things went this way:
- While Sammaster is still a Chosen of Mystra but he's starting to go mad and grow paranoid, he fashions one (or several) magical artifacts of incredible power using his reserve of silver fire (and probably further straining himself and worsening his own mental health), just in case he has to confront powers against which his own spellcasting capabilities are useless;
- Later Sammaster gets kicked in the jimmies and left for dead by the Chosens and Azuth sucks the silver fire out of him, so he's now a "fallen chosen" without many special powers, including silver fire;
- Sammaster is confronted by the avatar of Lathander, something he can't battle with his own energies, so he reaches into his private pocket planes and extradimensional spaces to get his own doomsday silver fire wrought weapons but those fail too.
EDIT: agreed on the wheel being some version of the Time Stop spell |
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