| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Barastir |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 12:18:06
Dear sages,
I have a 2e campaign running in the cities of the North, currently in 1368 DR, near to Silverymoon. My question is about the defenses of the city, more specifically about the fabled "Knights in Silver".
I've read about them in 2e and 3e sourcebooks, but there is one question that remains unanswered to me, especially for its practical reasons: are the knights (and the spellguard) the only official defenders of the city? I mean, are there regular soldiers, gate keepers, archers, pikemen, and so, or only the knights defend the city? If there are soldiers, are the knights detached from them, or they work as hierarchic superiors to the regular troops?
Thank you in advance for any answer. |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Barastir |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 13:59:03
Just to register Ed's answer about this issue, sent through the lovely THO:
"Barastir, the Knights In Silver and the Spellguard are the elite "heavy hitters" of Silverymoon's defenders and expeditionary forces; the daily guards (of gates, walls, civic building entrances) and street police are in addition to the Knights, and beneath them in rank (not formally, but in terms of authority; any of the Silverwatch or the Moon Garrison who are given an order by a Knight or a member of the Spellguard will obey it unhesitatingly). However, the Knights in Silver can and do "muck in" on mundane guarding work, on a regular rota; they're not haughty sorts. They do provide the fast cavalry, and patrol Everlund and the environs of Silverymoon on horseback regularly." |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 17:50:09
It is probably better to say that the Guard is the standing army and the Watch is the police force.
I sometimes have the Watch investigating police matters outside the walls and you obviously need the Guard to respond to military matters within the walls. Besides, the headquarters of the Guard is Castle Waterdeep, well inside the walls.
In other words, the distinction doesn't really restrict either in a way which can't corelate with the Knights in Silver.
I've always used the Knights in Silver as literal Knights. That means they are petty nobles with minor authority, but are also a part of the military. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 11:40:34
Actually, 2e sources (repeated in Silver Marches) describe patrols that would be guard duty, while the aforementioned citation suggests that they do watch duty.
In 2e sources for Waterdeep (and probably in later sources) the guard does outside and wall duty, while the watch works more inside the city proper.
The Knights in Silver apparently do both, I'd just like to know if there are other guard or watch members, or if there are knights and knights, with different equipment, outlook and duties (would heavy cavalry knights with masterwork swords keep the walls, for example? Would they have restrictions about using missile weapons? What about the other knights, are they open to this kind of weapon, unlike many cavalier orders?). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 03:42:48
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I understand it... But once again, my problem persists. Who takes care of the dirty work? While in the Knights in Silver entry they are all described as shining knights, and apparently all are heavy cavalry, more than an entry says that they make the seven-day ride patrols around the city (also cited in 2e sources), while other section of the book states that "The Knights in Silver provide the watch of the town".
I know you placed question to Ed's ask so any answer you get from him better then what I might offer.
In general Watch and Guard are two different things, however some cities might rotate the duties. Some times Watch and Guard also mean the same thing. Most of the time Guard means the army and Watch means the police. That is Guard defends from foreign powers or forces and Watch strives to keep civil order (police).
Duke Kentinal, self assumed title, has both A Watch and A Guard. The Watch works within the capital city. The Guard maintain a patrol of the fields and claimed borders that surround the city, maintain the watch on the walls of the city, does have army bases in the city. There is duty rotation for both as well. Watch can be transferred from one Ward to a different one. Guard can be transferred from border to city wall detail.
Part of concern you might be dealing with is Watch vs. watch. One is a force and the other something someone does when not out riding their horse. *S* |
| Barastir |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 02:13:27
I understand it... But once again, my problem persists. Who takes care of the dirty work? While in the Knights in Silver entry they are all described as shining knights, and apparently all are heavy cavalry, more than an entry says that they make the seven-day ride patrols around the city (also cited in 2e sources), while other section of the book states that "The Knights in Silver provide the watch of the town". |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 18:41:46
There is no reason a War 1 can not be regular Knight. There is no reason to infer that the 308 are militia. It clearly might be possible they could be reserves, however no reason to conclude that. The difference between a Ftr. 1 and War 1 are full Knights, just Ftr. 1 perform a little better then War. 1
The difference between a Ftr. and War is HD, the Fighter has class craft skill additional, and the Ftr. gets the bonus Fighter feat. That is all the difference. Skill points are the same, proficiency the same. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 14:30:57
Cool dazzlerdal! Thank you very much for this info!
PS: I checked the 2e reference, and it comes from The North - Guide to the Savage Frontier boxed set. This reference also says that "The High Guard is 150 warriors strong and is supplemented by the Spellguard, the battery of spellcasters whose main offices are in the central tower of the castle."
Checking 3e Silver Marches, I found that the Knights in Silver are 704 heavy cavalry. However, the heavy cavalry is composed of Ftr1, while the city's entry says that almost half (308) of the knights are War1 (just like the militia entry). Would they be part cavalry, part militia? The Knights in Silver entry also says that their patrols are often accompanied by a spellguard mage... Well, since there is one spellguard mage for every 20 or so knights, I think if it works... Maybe if half of the knights are normal guards with militia duty, it is more likely to happen (spellguards would accompany a smaller number os knights in the field). However, I see, then, two kinds of knights. Well, I hope Ed and THO bring more clarifications... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 12:35:38
If you count the spellguard numbers from the city blurb about silverymoon it gives you the number and classes and levels of the spellguard (probably in the Silver Marches book). I count 33 in there
I also found this quote
quote:
The Gem of the North also has the protection of Alustriel's own Spellguard, a cadre of mages dedicated to helping keep the peace within a settlement so steeped in magic. The Spellguard has 20 to 30 members at any given time, and they are led by Taern “Thunderspell” Hornblade (LG hm W17), one of Alustriel's senior advisors.
As always i have no idea what its from, i only know that its a 2nd edition source, probably a volo's guide. The same source also says their primary duties are guarding alustriel and the palace but they also deal with rogue mages in the streets and help supplement the army when needed.
Also rooted out the quotes that mention regular guards (they may refer to high guard and spell guard but i doubt it given the details.
quote:
891 DR: With the influx of people from Ascalhorn and record trade years for the cities. merchants, the city is forced to expand the city's north walls to the locations where they rest today. All the guards’ garrisons and some support buildings are demolished and rebuilt across the bridge on the southern shore of the Rauvin, with new high walls surrounding the Warriors' Quarter.
quote:
1034 DR: Bowgentle is born to a fisherman and his wife on the last day of this year. Guards on the city walls later reported the sighting of exactly 21 shooting stars at the time of his birth.
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| Barastir |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 18:53:40
Don't you think maybe it would be even more stranger to have an order of mages doing the dirty work, hashimashadoo? Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I think it is even more unlikely, no?
Clarification: I say this because I see magic as rare and special, and that would explain why there are less spellguard members than any other defenders.
Question: You say three-to-one? So, there are only about 30 men in spellguard? Where can I find this info?
Well, I think I'll extend my question to Ed and THO... Thank you all for your contribution! And if someone has something more to add, please do it, all insights are welcome!  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 15:48:27
Well i cant find any concrete information on other guard units or a watch.
However in history entries for silverymoon it repeatedly mentions guards doing or witnessing things while on duty such as manning the walls.
So perhaps there are regular city guard units but they arent important enough to mention |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 15:10:19
I don't think mundane duties like that are ever mentioned, only that they patrol the area within seven days' ride around the city. I also see them guarding the city gates but it's the Spellguard who are responsible for internal security, so they'd be the ones responsible for 'dirty' guard duty.
Except of course for responsibilities in, around and in regard to the Palace and its residents, which would fall under the purview of the High Guard...though it's strange that they outnumber the Spellguard nearly three-to-one. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 13:16:26
One more question, then. Do knights in silver use bows or crossbows, keep the gates, guard entrances to some official buildings... Resuming: are they there for the "dirty" guard work? I always thought of them as "shining knights" that would not do some tasks or use some weapons, like old edition cavaliers. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 25 Feb 2014 : 12:39:49
There's also the High Guard, a force of 90 veterans stationed in the two northern towers of the High Palace. Otherwise the Knights and the Spellguard are the only official defenders of Silverymoon.
Farms and small towns/villages that supply Silverymoon have militias that are separate from the Knights and of course the North is famous for its Rangers, though they are not officially employed by the city.
With the wards and all the capable and devoted citizens, I'm guessing there isn't a need for any more. |
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