| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Razz |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 23:10:41
I guess to be more specific, was Deneir around during the Age of Netheril? I plan on connecting an enclave of Netherese to Denier and have them discover the Ritual of Word Made Flesh which transformed them into Illumians, and then they departed for the Astral Plane (and, eventually, the Plane of Shadow) and are now slowly moving into Faerun because of the Shadovar (who they see as a major threat).
I just want to make sure Denier has been around long enough for me to incorporate that. |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Asharak |
Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 21:24:41
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
I can't remember the original reference but it was reproduced in the Grand History.
tsr1085: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Running the Realms p.14
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| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 05:45:29
quote:
Originally posted by Dreamstalker
Out of curiosity, what is the reference for the DR 25 date for the founding of Denier's church? That is rather specific. Denier as a god of literature and knowledge does seem the sort to have such important things recorded. Unfortunately that works just as easily for ascension, appearance of an interloper, or divine birth/budding. No real hint on which is more likely from a founding date.
I can't remember the original reference but it was reproduced in the Grand History. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 00:01:39
You know, what with what I just noted.... it is kind of interesting that a god involved with teaching the basics of knowledge (i.e. writing) arose right after Netheril, Jhaamdath, Narfell, and Raumathar, all fell. I do note that I missed Calimshan and Tethyr as surviving "empires" of the time. I wonder if Deneir didn't rise up in that general vicinity. I wonder, could the Edificant Library that produced Cadderly have been the original temple of Deneir? Could the building of the "Spirit Soaring" have been some kind of reanchoring of Deneir to Toril somehow because the Edificant Library was tainted? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 23:50:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I‘m guessing that Realms-Oghma did not invent the first alphabet and writing, as attributed to Celtic-Oghma. The presence of the Nether Scrolls alone is sort of a giveaway ... I wonder if writing was first brought by dragons and elves.
I‘m disinclined to think invention was big in Netheril. At least not invention by technological artifice; available equipment of the time was roughly equivalent to what AD&D calls “Ancient“ and “Middle-Ages“, and Inventor-school Arcanists would never bother with clunky machinery when (for them) magic could do anything easier, better, and more respectably.
Knowledge and lore were governed by Mystryl. I wonder if the Realms lost knowledge to a sort of dark age after Netheril‘s Fall but before Oghma (by whatever name) arrived.
You make the assumption there that Oghma wasn't around. When Netheril fell, its knowledge was lost, but that doesn't mean that the people of Talfir were lost. At the same time, the people of Jhaamdath were still around and had a highly intellectual society. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Oghma and Gond weren't adopted in amongst the worship of the people's of Jhaamdath, seeing as the place where the Talfir were and the place where Jhaamdath was were so close. It would absolutely fit a society that worshipped the mind if they not only had Auppenser, but also Oghma and Gond. Of course, the fact that Jhaamdath fell a century after Netheril could have led to some dark age for humanity, as the remainder of Netheril slowly regathered in Halruaa. That left your great empires in the east, and low and behold a century later Narfell and Raumathar mutually disintegrated. This left the main shining empires that were left being the god-ruled empires of Mulhorand and Unther, both of whom were slowly losing power.
From these ashes arose the "time of city states and small countries" or essentially "points of light". This led to the intermixing of cultures in Western Faerun, in which each group of peoples took their pantheon of deities with them. So as not to be destroyed, it seems as though the deities began sharing out their portfolios and becoming more specific in their roles, and thus the "Faerunian" Pantheon grew from multiple cultural pantheons.
This is why I really think they should do a project where they start somewhat mapping out the arrival of the deities. I have no doubt that there will be some mess ups, and some things that some won't like and others will. However, all things can be corrected over time, as sagely lore is not always accurate. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 23:29:46
Oghma could have just been the inventor of the first human alphabet and writing. Netheril isn't the oldest advanced human civilization by far. Imaskar, Coramsham, and Jhaamdath all have significant development about two millenia before the Alliance of Seventon. The Talfir are noted back to at least the Crown Wars and so little is known about them that it is still possible Oghma came in and invented the first use of writing by humans before the proto-Netherese advanced to the point of writing. However, I doubt that since the Talfir supposedly used the Draconic script. So I agree that Oghma probably did not have that bit of lore in his Faerűnian aspect. I suspect the Sarrukh, Aeree, and Batrachi writing systems were not alphabets. Draconic or Elvish are probably the first alphabets in Toril as said.
An interesting idea, Deneir does have some of the literature/writing concerns of the real world Oghma but increased. After the fall of Jhaamdath in -255 DR, the Jhaamdathans dispersed and changed heavily. For a few centuries the Calimshan were more influential then they had ever been over the Heartlands despite Tethyrian problems. During this time period the Jhaamdathan and Alzhedo languages gave rise to Old Thorass which eventually formed into Chondathan and Common. During the Old Thorass period an unnamed person invented the Thorassian alphabet which spread across Faerűn very quickly. This suggests Thorass might be more robust than older human scripts, likely learning a lot from Elvish, Dwarvish and Draconic. What if that unnamed scribe was Deneir? His creation of a very well designed and useful script led to Oghma sponsoring his ascension, and allowing all aspects of writing to fall into Deneir's portfolio. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 23:22:15
quote:
Originally posted by Dreamstalker
Part of why I was musing the way I did. At some point a Celtic interloper gained access to the realms. Was this by way of a transported people like the Unther and Mulhorandi pantheons? Or possibly more like Loviatar, Mielikki, and Tyr who by Planescape lore appeared to have interloped by way of personal ambition rather than being brought along with well established worshipers? There are a lot of unexplored histories and wholes to fill.
You know, one thing I would note with the lore from On Hallowed Ground is that it is Planescape lore, and that is notorious for being "one person's belief" in the way things work. In fact, in the case of things like Tyr... I kind of wonder if the place where the Northmen come from didn't have many of the Norse Pantheon (or maybe some mismatched mix of deities from many pantheons <Celtic, Finnish, Norse, Newhonian, and even racial pantheons like the Giants>). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 22:38:36
I‘m guessing that Realms-Oghma did not invent the first alphabet and writing, as attributed to Celtic-Oghma. The presence of the Nether Scrolls alone is sort of a giveaway ... I wonder if writing was first brought by dragons and elves.
I‘m disinclined to think invention was big in Netheril. At least not invention by technological artifice; available equipment of the time was roughly equivalent to what AD&D calls “Ancient“ and “Middle-Ages“, and Inventor-school Arcanists would never bother with clunky machinery when (for them) magic could do anything easier, better, and more respectably.
Knowledge and lore were governed by Mystryl. I wonder if the Realms lost knowledge to a sort of dark age after Netheril‘s Fall but before Oghma (by whatever name) arrived. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 20:58:55
Out of curiosity, what is the reference for the DR 25 date for the founding of Denier's church? That is rather specific. Denier as a god of literature and knowledge does seem the sort to have such important things recorded. Unfortunately that works just as easily for ascension, appearance of an interloper, or divine birth/budding. No real hint on which is more likely from a founding date.
I could definitely see Curna being a previously independent deity absorbed by Oghma. My general assumption for aliases of interloper deities is absorption or banishment of a previous deity. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 14:14:22
well, the only other thing I can add is that one of the interloper deities that came with Oghma is Herne, a god of hunting worshiped (mostly by neutral-aligned orcs who called him 'Hurkgruum') in the High Forest. Faiths and Avatars claims that Herne was a corrupted avatar of Malar and that during the ToT Malar tracked him down and killed him, and now impersonates him for his worshipers prayers. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 13:44:21
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
It's mentioned that Oghma came to Toril along with a bunch of other deities but not mentioned exactly when or who all of those deities were.
None of the deities of Knowledge and Invention have been mentioned as contemporaries of the Netherese who, I believe, would have naturally been drawn to such gods.
The earliest solid date that references Deneir is 25 DR when his church was founded. The earliest solid date I can find for Oghma is -256 DR where he is known as 'Curna' in the Shining Lands.
This means that Oghma could have existed at the time of Netheril but was only discovered by the netherese during the time of the netherese successor states.
Yet Curna is a female goddess, so it could be that Oghma came before OR after this reference. After all, if Oghma came to the realms and came into competition with Curna, Oghma may have defeated her OR she may have simply yielded to him (being weakened by receiving little worship energy from Adama worshippers).
The 25 DR reference to Deneir's church being founded however, that's a lot more specific. That may just answer the original poster's question.
Personally, as others have noted, I believe Oghma, Silvanus, and Gond (alias possibly of Goibhnie) came from the Talfir people. Whenever the Talfir people's fled to the islands off the sword coast, possibly some fled to Lantan and thus Gond's worship grew there. Whether Mielikki, Loviatar, and Kiputytto were also Talfiric gods is something that's questionable, but it is a possibility.
The talfir pantheon may have been a composite of Celtic, Finnish, and maybe even some Newhon deities. The only reason I mention Newhon deities is I wonder if the healer god Ilmater isn't some kind of composite of the Newhonian Issek of the Jug, Finnish Ilmatar, and Celtic Diancecht... and at some point this composite had to give up some of the powers of Ilmatar to another deity. This could kind of explain the sect of Ilmatari worshippers who hold to drinking heavily without having to drag in the Greek pantheon (i.e. St. Dionysius). If there was some kind of Newhon incursion, I'd bet the majority of their deities either didn't come over and/or their people were simply destroyed (that being said, the Newhonian deity may even be an interloper in Newhon from Toril, as that pantheon seems to be some conglomeration as well).
As others have mentioned, I believe Tempus to have also come from the Talfir people, but my belief is that he is the risen warrior mortal favored by the divine known as Tempus from the Thieve's World series (i.e. he eventually became a god). |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 23 Jan 2014 : 06:31:29
It's mentioned that Oghma came to Toril along with a bunch of other deities but not mentioned exactly when or who all of those deities were.
None of the deities of Knowledge and Invention have been mentioned as contemporaries of the Netherese who, I believe, would have naturally been drawn to such gods.
The earliest solid date that references Deneir is 25 DR when his church was founded. The earliest solid date I can find for Oghma is -256 DR where he is known as 'Curna' in the Shining Lands.
This means that Oghma could have existed at the time of Netheril but was only discovered by the netherese during the time of the netherese successor states. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 23:25:41
Part of why I was musing the way I did. At some point a Celtic interloper gained access to the realms. Was this by way of a transported people like the Unther and Mulhorandi pantheons? Or possibly more like Loviatar, Mielikki, and Tyr who by Planescape lore appeared to have interloped by way of personal ambition rather than being brought along with well established worshipers? There are a lot of unexplored histories and wholes to fill. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 22:22:57
And when did Oghma first establish a presence in the Realms? He, too, was not listed among the deities of ancient Netheril. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 21:13:01
Denier has no specific origins that I have heard of. The best timing we might have is that there is a human librarian blessed with long life by Denier that is 600 years old in the mid 1300s. This puts Denier back to at least the late 700s or early 800s depending on when this man became a follower of Denier. Deneir is likely centuries older than this librarian. I could see Denier being an ascended human under Mystra or Oghma in the post Netherese formation of a Faerűnian pantheon. I could also see him being one of the deities possibly left behind by the little known about Talfiric people who may also be the source of Tempus. Or possibly another interloper deity under a changed name. Milil is based on possibly Bragi (Norse) while Gond is loosely based on and possibly Hephaestus (Greek). I don't see any good choices for an interloper deity that wouldn't likely be from an Old Empire or Kara Tur pantheon. Oghma himself would probably be the best male European deity equivalent. Being a split aspect of Oghma or a human with Oghma sponsored ascension are my personal biases for most likely.
Looking at his superior, Oghma is a Celtic deity that has gained influence in Faerűn at an unknown time. The Ffolk of the Moonshae Isles are probably the closest to the Celts in Forgotten Realms, but have a very insular religious setup, Talfiric origins, and more recent Tethyrian assimilation that neither implies nor denies Oghma would have his origins in their formation or arrival. The Talfir are a dark haired fair skinned people suspected of producing Tempus. Tempus rides two horses named Veiros (Victory) and Deiros (Defeat), which I cannot find a specific real world basis in those meanings but Veiros appears to be a Portugese name and Deiros a Spanish name. The Iberian peninsula does have a Celtic past. It is possible that the Talfir were a Iberian Celtic civilizations brought to Faerűn, likely one of the Castro cultures or the Celtiberians. Those cultures had influences beyond the pan-Celtic identity and could make the Talfiric people the source of not only Celtic gods but other gods of unknown origin that have a resemblance to gods of Europe. Just some thoughts. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2014 : 18:50:28
Why do you doubt Deneir knows Loross? While he wasn't in Netheril, he very well may have been a deity in another pantheon that was merged to the Netherese pantheon (granted, that doesn't necessarily help the original poster). Granted, he could have also been a mortal that was raised later. I've often wondered if Deneir wasn't somehow involved with the giant magical runes that cover the surface of Toril's Crystal Sphere, possibly being raised up by the goddess of magic in combination with Oghma. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jan 2014 : 22:24:01
Denier was not one of the (few) deities present in ancient Netheril. They are all listed in the Arcane Ages: Empire of Magic supplement.
Slightly off-topic, but one of the special abilities granted to Deneir‘s priests is the ability to understand, speak, read and write any language known by Deneir. I‘m assuming that Deneir doesn‘t know Loross, at least as anything more than a dead language. But the languages which Deneir *does* know have not been specified. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 18 Jan 2014 : 00:32:48
No. I believe at that time there were no lesser deities. Someone else can answer this more fully than I. |
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