| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Intellectus |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 11:59:05
Warlocks gain power from their pact(s) with entities most commonly devils, demons, fey, elder evils and maybe even more parties .But I cannot seem to find more information about these pacts anywhere. If anyone knows more about them please write it down here. Information like who else can a warlock make pacts with, what are the obligations of both sides of the parties, what does this pact look like (is it writen down or not , what is it writwn down on ...) would be most appreciated. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Intellectus |
Posted - 02 Feb 2014 : 20:28:58
Thanks people. That's plenty. |
| Lothlos |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 18:16:02
If you are researching Warlock pacts there is a Warlock, Japheth, in the Abolethic Sovereignty. There are many details given about his pacts. His first pact is broken and he is able to make a second one with a different entity. |
| ErinMEvans |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 01:23:11
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I haven't read them, but i think Ms Evans books on the tiefling warlock Farideh can shed some light on the matter.
Caveat: This is based largely on what had been said about warlocks as of 2011. I read everything that was available while writing Brimstone Angels and what I added was shared with the RPG team. So there may be other viewpoints, etc., etc.
The way I have depicted the Infernal pact is that the warlock draws their power from the plane, with the entity who makes the pact acting as either the conduit or the controller of said conduit. Several DDi articles mentioned half-devils/cambions and other lower ranking devils as the sort to make warlock pacts, which strongly suggested to me that the power doesn't come from the entity specifically.
The terms of the pact vary from agreement to agreement. Here are two I've shown.
1. Temerity is the warlock. Lorcan is the pact-entity (the Nine Hells are the plane). Basic terms are that Lorcan will give Temerity access to the powers of the Hells at his discretion--so when she's ready for a new spell, Lorcan might require something in return. A corrupt act here, aid a cultist there, and step by step, Temerity starts to value her power and comfort over her soul--a Pact Certain seals it off and Lorcan basically starts ignoring this warlock at that point. She has access to the powers, she can use them as she wants. At this point, Lorcan can't pull her pact because the terms of the agreements have made it permanent. If somehow Temerity were to regain her soul, then there is probably something to the contract that would void the pact.
2. Farideh is the warlock. Lorcan again is the pact-entity. Farideh is extremely reluctant to take the pact and isn't swayed by pure power/comfort. But she is the very rare heir of a powerful warlock, so keeping her in a pact confers a sort of "micro-status" on Lorcan within the circle of the collector devils of the Nine Hells. He doesn't need her to get him more because she gives him that micro-status. He can wait for other benefits.
Swapping a pact for your soul is an option, but it seems kind of short sighted for the devil in question, particularly if you're playing in the post-Spellplague FR where Asmodeus has as much a use for active, living souls as dead ones. A pact-entity can get more from a person if they re-up their deal for each new spell. At least keep the options open. But there's always going to be a warlock out there who's got the WIS score or the shoddy Will save to just plunge in and swap eldritch blast for an eternity in the Hells.
Other things I can think of:
1. If the pact-entity dies, the pact goes away.
2. A warlock can switch their pact, or a devil can broker the pact to another, but if any party in this is unwilling, it could go very poorly. As someone in Brimstone Angels tells Farideh, it's safer to switch if you kill your pact-entity first.
3. I put collector devils in the Hells. THese are devils who hunt down specific types of warlocks to show off how clever and skilled they are. I imagine that, at points, the forms dead ends (the same way a huge bureaucracy will have points where you can' get promoted past a certain boss) and they'd have to do something with all that pent up ambition.
4. Infernal warlocks sport magical brands that identify their pact-owner and anchor their connection to the Hells.
5. I've shown Lorcan needing to grant each new spell learned to Farideh directly. Like something passes between them and then he explains how to trigger it.
And for a whole lot more and clearer depictions of all of this, I do highly recommend Brimstone Angels, Brimstone Angels: Lesser Evils and The Adversary. I get a lot of messages from people saying that these books made them like/understand/get a great idea for warlocks.
I think it could all apply to other flavors of warlock. The entities in question are all tied to various planes (to my knowledge), and while some of them are powerful enough to give a measure of that power over to one or many mortals, others really don't feel like they could handle it.
Best,
Erin |
| Gyor |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 00:48:56
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
"The specific source of the warlock's power is defined as a Pact (with a non-divine supernatural entity or power), which affects at-will power options and makesg certain powers more effective and provides a pact boon, an effect which is triggered whenever a cursed
enemy is killed or incapacitated. There are six Pacts:
The Star Pact is made with an entity from the Far Realm or a star located near it, which grants powers of grand revelations from the stars that madden foes. Star Pact warlocks can use either Constitution or Charisma for their attacks. There are also Star Pact spells which use Intelligence for attack rolls.[1]The Fey Pact, forged with a power of the Feywild, giving the user access to both wondrous and dangerous spells of the Faerie realm. Fey Pact warlocks use Charisma for their attacks.The Infernal Pact represents an agreement with a devil of the Nine Hells, giving one powers of hellish and demonic proportions. Infernal Pact warlocks use Constitution for their attacks.The Dark Pact is made with powerful residents of the Underdark and the Abyss, which grants spells of plagues, illness and disease. This was presented in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.[2] Dark Pact warlocks use Charisma for their attacks.The Vestige Pact, presented in the Arcane Power supplement, represents an agreement with vestiges, arcane "echoes" of once-great individuals and powers, allowing the Warlock to act as a spirit medium through which entities manifest their powers.The Sorcerer-King Pact is included in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting. This pact is made with a Sorcerer-King of Athas, giving access to
abilities that destroy and defile. Sorcerer-King Pact warlocks can use either Constitution or Charisma for their attacks.The Gloom Pact is made with creatures of the Shadowfell, which gives the ability to connect with the shadows and use them to bind foes to them.The
Elemental Pact which allows Warlocks to draw their power from ancient Primordials in the Elemental Chaos, which in turn gives them chaotic elemental powers."
The above is from Wikipedia under the Warlock entery. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 00:22:21
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
"The specific source of the warlock's power is defined as a Pact (with a non-divine supernatural entity or power), which affects at-will power options and makesg certain powers more effective and provides a pact boon, an effect which is triggered whenever a cursed
enemy is killed or incapacitated. There are six Pacts:
The Star Pact is made with an entity from the Far Realm or a star located near it, which grants powers of grand revelations from the stars that madden foes. Star Pact warlocks can use either Constitution or Charisma for their attacks. There are also Star Pact spells which use Intelligence for attack rolls.[1]The Fey Pact, forged with a power of the Feywild, giving the user access to both wondrous and dangerous spells of the Faerie realm. Fey Pact warlocks use Charisma for their attacks.The Infernal Pact represents an agreement with a devil of the Nine Hells, giving one powers of hellish and demonic proportions. Infernal Pact warlocks use Constitution for their attacks.The Dark Pact is made with powerful residents of the Underdark and the Abyss, which grants spells of plagues, illness and disease. This was presented in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.[2] Dark Pact warlocks use Charisma for their attacks.The Vestige Pact, presented in the Arcane Power supplement, represents an agreement with vestiges, arcane "echoes" of once-great individuals and powers, allowing the Warlock to act as a spirit medium through which entities manifest their powers.The Sorcerer-King Pact is included in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting. This pact is made with a Sorcerer-King of Athas, giving access to
abilities that destroy and defile. Sorcerer-King Pact warlocks can use either Constitution or Charisma for their attacks.The Gloom Pact is made with creatures of the Shadowfell, which gives the ability to connect with the shadows and use them to bind foes to them.The
Elemental Pact which allows Warlocks to draw their power from ancient Primordials in the Elemental Chaos, which in turn gives them chaotic elemental powers."
The above is from Wikipedia under the Warlock entery. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 00:20:00
"The specific source of the warlock's power is defined as a Pact (with a non-divine supernatural entity or power), which affects at-will power options and makesg certain powers more effective and provides a pact boon, an effect which is triggered whenever a cursed
enemy is killed or incapacitated. There are six Pacts:
The Star Pact is made with an entity from the Far Realm or a star located near it, which grants powers of grand revelations from the stars that madden foes. Star Pact warlocks can use either Constitution or Charisma for their attacks. There are also Star Pact spells which use Intelligence for attack rolls.[1]The Fey Pact, forged with a power of the Feywild, giving the user access to both wondrous and dangerous spells of the Faerie realm. Fey Pact warlocks use Charisma for their attacks.The Infernal Pact represents an agreement with a devil of the Nine Hells, giving one powers of hellish and demonic proportions. Infernal Pact warlocks use Constitution for their attacks.The Dark Pact is made with powerful residents of the Underdark and the Abyss, which grants spells of plagues, illness and disease. This was presented in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide.[2] Dark Pact warlocks use Charisma for their attacks.The Vestige Pact, presented in the Arcane Power supplement, represents an agreement with vestiges, arcane "echoes" of once-great individuals and powers, allowing the Warlock to act as a spirit medium through which entities manifest their powers.The Sorcerer-King Pact is included in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting. This pact is made with a Sorcerer-King of Athas, giving access to
abilities that destroy and defile. Sorcerer-King Pact warlocks can use either Constitution or Charisma for their attacks.The Gloom Pact is made with creatures of the Shadowfell, which gives the ability to connect with the shadows and use them to bind foes to them.The
Elemental Pact which allows Warlocks to draw their power from ancient Primordials in the Elemental Chaos, which in turn gives them chaotic elemental powers."
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| Gyor |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 00:05:52
In 4e one can make pacts with Fey, something in the underdark (I'm still not sure what, but an example patron was released in the past), Gloom pacts with powerful Shadowfell enitities like Shadow demons, Dark Powers, and Dread Lords I believe, Stars and the Lovecraftian enitities connected to them, devils/demons infernal pacts, sorceror king pacts (that maybe more accoicated with Athas, but it was legal in the LFR). I think there was a pact with Primordials too in that Elemental Choas player book, but I never read that one.
In 3e it was Slaad Lords, Archfiends, Fey, and even rarely Gods (Eldrich Disciple Prestiage Class one of my favourite ones in 3e).
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| Intellectus |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 19:17:15
"Bestowing cleric spells is something that every god with a divine rank can do, regardless of their statistical abilities. Presumably this is something Ao wants them to do and his word just goes."
Gods fight and gods die. In truth most gods probably grant spells to protect their followers and themseleves from death, and to uphold their dogma. They also use it to attract more followers (this was most evident during the Spellplague) and kill followers of other gods.
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| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 18:17:36
Grunch.
Bestowing cleric spells is something that every god with a divine rank can do, regardless of their statistical abilities. Presumably this is something Ao wants them to do and his word just goes.
Warlocks are trickier. Not all warlocks need to make the pact themselves. The Class Chronicles articles state that some people descended from those who made the pact are born with warlock powers, much like a sorcerer. I'm not sure that it's ever been explicitly stated what the pact maker gets out of the deal, nor why they don't use warlock powers themselves. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 17:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But you're not facing the "god" when you face his avatar.
Uhm, i was referring to the gods themselves, those big stacks of stats with anywhere between forty and sixty HD presented in Faiths & Pantheons. There it gives us the gods stats and the modified stats for the avatars, i was referring to the gods stats. There are gods (Cyric, Tymora, Mask, Silvanus, Talos and others) that don't have cleric levels but undoubtely bestow clerical spells on their followers, thus the explanation i gave before.
I don't know if it is applicable to warlock pacts, i think so, since we are still speaking about beings of great power (not god-like, but enough to take notice from a lowly mortal POV). I don't even know what the warlock gives to the entity he/she makes the pact with in exchange for his/her powers. Priests give worship, warlocks? Their souls? Is it a one time deal?
I haven't read them, but i think Ms Evans books on the tiefling warlock Farideh can shed some light on the matter. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 16:11:32
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yeah, one thing I'd like to know with all these warlocks is where's the original source(s)? Why aren't these devil lords themselves hurling powerful eldritch blasts and/or using warlock powers if they have access to them, etc...? I like the general idea, but some better explanation would be appreciated.
I can't remember where i found this explanation but i think it was from an Ask Ed scroll or from one of the Realms deities sourcebook, however i feel the reasoning behind the solution to the conundrum of deities without divine caster levels granting but non using divine spells can be applied here to devil/demon lords non having warlock levels but granting warlock powers without using them.
The explanation is something like this: the deities are beings of tremendous personal power and lending a tiny portion of this power to mortals to let them cast spell is something that doesn't even require thought on their part, however the skill, willpower and training to proficiently wield such granted power don't come as easily and are represented by the class/caster levels in some divine spellcasting class. I think it works the same way with warlocks' pacts: the powerful entity grants a tiny portion of his power to the mortal and that mortal shapes it and wields it as best as he/she can with his/her skill and training (class/caster levels).
That's why not all the gods have divine spells in their magic repertoire and why we don't see archdevils hurling eldritch blasts warlock-style. The marked difference here is that most deities can mimic the effects of divine spells or warlock incantations through their Alter Reality salient divine ability (i think it is that one, at least in 3e) while archdevils and the like cannot with ease (unless you give them salient divine abilities, but then they become deities).
On the nature of warlocks' pacts i know nothing.
But you're not facing the "god" when you face his avatar. Therefore, I have a natural believability that there's some "divine font of energy" that's created through worship and that the god simply lets you siphon some from it. Is there something similar with fiends, archfey, and far realms beings? At least with worshippers for a deity, you see the worship going "to" the deity because the worship is for him. What mechanisms are there for gathering such for fiends, archfey, and far realms beings?
I'm not saying that these things are unbelievable, but it would be of interest to know how they're "fueling" these things. For instance, if there was some powerful font of magical energy for demons (which there was talk of some demon weave), perhaps its fueled by sacrificing devils to it... or maybe through the use of larvae or contracted souls. What about the fey? Is it fueled by imagination or something different like nature? What about the far realms? Do they get empowered through something like nightmares, or literal blood sacrifice? |
| Demzer |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 14:18:29
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yeah, one thing I'd like to know with all these warlocks is where's the original source(s)? Why aren't these devil lords themselves hurling powerful eldritch blasts and/or using warlock powers if they have access to them, etc...? I like the general idea, but some better explanation would be appreciated.
I can't remember where i found this explanation but i think it was from an Ask Ed scroll or from one of the Realms deities sourcebook, however i feel the reasoning behind the solution to the conundrum of deities without divine caster levels granting but non using divine spells can be applied here to devil/demon lords non having warlock levels but granting warlock powers without using them.
The explanation is something like this: the deities are beings of tremendous personal power and lending a tiny portion of this power to mortals to let them cast spell is something that doesn't even require thought on their part, however the skill, willpower and training to proficiently wield such granted power don't come as easily and are represented by the class/caster levels in some divine spellcasting class. I think it works the same way with warlocks' pacts: the powerful entity grants a tiny portion of his power to the mortal and that mortal shapes it and wields it as best as he/she can with his/her skill and training (class/caster levels).
That's why not all the gods have divine spells in their magic repertoire and why we don't see archdevils hurling eldritch blasts warlock-style. The marked difference here is that most deities can mimic the effects of divine spells or warlock incantations through their Alter Reality salient divine ability (i think it is that one, at least in 3e) while archdevils and the like cannot with ease (unless you give them salient divine abilities, but then they become deities).
On the nature of warlocks' pacts i know nothing. |
| Intellectus |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 00:47:44
It surprises me that there are very few sources of information about this subject. Other types of spellcasting are described with so much more detail. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 28 Dec 2013 : 16:10:27
It would honestly depend on the Lord in question.
Perhaps the Lord also acts as a conduit between the caster and the power he borrows, or eldritch blasts and so on are just simply crude displays of the Lord's power. Of course, that creates the question of why warlocks of Orcus, Mephistopheles and Ygorl all have the same toolkit. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 12:44:09
yeah, one thing I'd like to know with all these warlocks is where's the original source(s)? Why aren't these devil lords themselves hurling powerful eldritch blasts and/or using warlock powers if they have access to them, etc...? I like the general idea, but some better explanation would be appreciated. |
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