| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| DrErika |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 02:45:04
I have a long standing campaign in Undermountain and I would love to delve deeper into the subject of Halaster's background. Although lore on the Imaskari seems sketchy at best. Any help on this subject Ed or anyone?
many thanks
~Dr Erika Van Sheldon
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the ethers. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 00:23:17
Great Reader sleyvas,
I dig the idea of Halaster being associated somehow with the Dark Pit of Maleficence. That is frickin' cool!
BTW, other than the Shining South, do you know of any materials that discuss it?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
From 3.5 Dragons of Faerun, Roll Call of Dragons. They give the name and make it a green dragon.
Xavarathimius, CR 27 Dracolich Male great wyrm green Sharawood, Shaar “The Everlasting Wyrm”
However, thank you for the thread necromancy... I had forgotten Demzer's interesting ideas involving Fraz'urb-luu, Hilather, Gargauth, and Eltab.
Even moreso, I'm now picturing Hilather/Halaster as an anima mage (mixing wizardry and binding magic), and that maybe part of his craziness is that he did this creating of link form the dark pit of maleficence to wells of darkness/shattered night using a ritual that had his mind touch into the wells of darkness and the place where vestiges go. Given my interests in Peleveran, this is a great find. Now ... how to work it....
Even more fits that I want to have Thayd's disappearance around the time of the formation of the Zulkirate, the fall of Peleveran, and the release of Gargauth. If Thayd is going to the Pit of Maleficence because he's Imaskari, and the Imaskari made the Pit, and he knows Halaster did something there... maybe he goes there and Halaster shows up (because he got the alarm that Gargauth is free) and entraps Thayd as a vestige (because my original story also had Thayd as an anima mage... a lot of Imaskari in my book were anima mages.... as were the Theurgist Adepts). Halaster may have also entrapped Jorgmacdon, the first Zulkir of Conjuration, there somehow, since I want him freed in Peleveran.
Hmmm, gotta remember was also having Thayd possessing a dragon simply because it was the only creature he could find with enough hit die for his "suel lich" type form... and the dragon rage was going on too.
Hmmmm, what if Halaster's shattering also had something to do with the Dark Pit of Maleficence and the wells of darkness.... what if Halaster is now a vestige?
Hmmm, several things to tie together, but it could make a good story.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 00:28:46
From 3.5 Dragons of Faerun, Roll Call of Dragons. They give the name and make it a green dragon.
Xavarathimius, CR 27 Dracolich Male great wyrm green Sharawood, Shaar “The Everlasting Wyrm”
However, thank you for the thread necromancy... I had forgotten Demzer's interesting ideas involving Fraz'urb-luu, Hilather, Gargauth, and Eltab.
Even moreso, I'm now picturing Hilather/Halaster as an anima mage (mixing wizardry and binding magic), and that maybe part of his craziness is that he did this creating of link form the dark pit of maleficence to wells of darkness/shattered night using a ritual that had his mind touch into the wells of darkness and the place where vestiges go. Given my interests in Peleveran, this is a great find. Now ... how to work it....
Even more fits that I want to have Thayd's disappearance around the time of the formation of the Zulkirate, the fall of Peleveran, and the release of Gargauth. If Thayd is going to the Pit of Maleficence because he's Imaskari, and the Imaskari made the Pit, and he knows Halaster did something there... maybe he goes there and Halaster shows up (because he got the alarm that Gargauth is free) and entraps Thayd as a vestige (because my original story also had Thayd as an anima mage... a lot of Imaskari in my book were anima mages.... as were the Theurgist Adepts). Halaster may have also entrapped Jorgmacdon, the first Zulkir of Conjuration, there somehow, since I want him freed in Peleveran.
Hmmm, gotta remember was also having Thayd possessing a dragon simply because it was the only creature he could find with enough hit die for his "suel lich" type form... and the dragon rage was going on too.
Hmmmm, what if Halaster's shattering also had something to do with the Dark Pit of Maleficence and the wells of darkness.... what if Halaster is now a vestige?
Hmmm, several things to tie together, but it could make a good story. |
| Tigon |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 12:48:40
Another case of thread necromancy...
In regards to the "Everlasting Wyrm", is there ever a description given for this dragon?
As I pointed out on another thread, on page 23 of Powers & Pantheons:
"Gargauth is a loner. His few servants are undead and other creatures he can control with his charm monster ability, such as snakes and blue dragons He is often encountered astride Rathguul, a great blue wyrm with maximum hit points who serves as his steed as part of an ancient contract..."
Could this everylasting wyrm be Gargauth's own steed... Rathguul? Certainly would be an attractive lure for the COTD as well. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 23:14:47
One thing to consider. Once Gargauth was FREED from it (assuming he had been entrapped), the abilities may have changed. Essentially, having an entrapped devil in it may have given it some interesting abilities fueled by the entrapped being. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 16:47:12
It does seem like a sensible option to me.
The shield is totally unrelated to devil binding in every way. In fact its powers are very beneficial and almost good aligned (helping the wielder communicate with others while keeping him alive).
Almost as if it were a ruse, to lull the wielder into thinking its a nice item and have no idea this guy is or was hiding in it.
I dont know that Gargauth was ever trapped in this shield i think he just trapped a portion of himself in it (kind of like a liches phylactery).
Halaster must have found it during his travels and from it learned how to bind Gargauth specifically which helped him in actually binding Gargauth into that pit using ancient Imaskari magic. Curiously the description of Gargauths bindings describe them as ancient magic, not that they were cast in ancient times.
It would be nice if scheming Gargauth's own instrument was used against him. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 16:38:57
Cloak and Dagger (p72) doesn't clear this question up either. Just that it was found in the Fields of the Dead and that Gargauth's followers believe it's a manifestation of Gargauth. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 16:20:52
Dont know how it happened but i came across gargauth again in the cult of the dragon sourcebook and i had a read of the Shield of the Hidden Lords abilities.
+4 mithril shield covered in precious gems. Grants wearer protection from arrows and the tongues ability.
I dont know why but this shield doesnt seem like something Halaster would create, it certainly isnt like the other shields even if it is a prototype.
I can only think that either it is elven make and Gargauth was accidentally trapped in it for a time.
Or that given the previous metals and gemstones on its surface and the tongues ability then Gargauth fashioned it himself and trapped himself in it which would not be out of the question for a devil on the run. What better place to hide. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 14:02:28
I LIKE IT! The Fraz link is great. Then we have a perfectly trapped Gargauth for Hilather to play with as he makes the Shield of the Hidden Lord. Whenever Eltab finds out what Hilather is doing, perhaps that sparks conflict between the two (he worries that the archmage may try to entrap him in a device... which Hilather may have been planning to do). Hilather flees to the Shoon Imperium, where he agrees to construct demonshields. He creates a portal linkage from beneath his tower that actually connects to a major demoncyst somewhere in the Unapproachable East (maybe... I kind of like the idea though... its simpler and more elegant I think), and binds entrapped demons from the demoncyst into shields. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 11:48:18
Sounds good to me, i'm still trying to locate the dungeon and dragon magazines in my collection so i can read more into the background for Astaroth and Gargauth before i give a final thumbs up but it gets a provisional thumbs up from me.
I do like the Fraz'Urb-Luu throw in as well, i always forget it is him that screwed over Eltab by helping the Narfelli bind him.
|
| Demzer |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 10:51:23
I say we can try to glue it all together with two moves:
1 - Blame it all on the Imaskari
2 - Give some stage time to Fraz-Urb'Luu
3 - ???
4 - Profit
To elaborate i would like to point at this interesting bit in Grand History of the Realms page 18, wholly dedicated to the Imaskari, fourth paragraph:
"In –6422 DR, rampaging krakentua razed the Imperial City of Inupras, forcing the Imaskari to abandon their ancient capital. How the demon spirits entered the city is unknown, but popular opinion later placed the blame on the Cult of Demogorgon, since the krakentua first emerged from the Temple of the Gaping Maw in the city’s center."
While i doubt the Imaskari worshipped demons the classical way, i think that, given their interest in planar magic, they had extensive relationships with them. And if they had a "Temple to Gaping Maw" in their capital city, i bet they had a lot more dealings with demons than with devils (probably viewing the "contracts" and pacts with devils as the same kind of binding relationship a faithful enters with his/her deity, demons on the other hand are as likely to renege on their pacts as any evil selfish human). So it's perfectly reasonable to have the Imaskari forge alliances with demons and maybe renege on agreements from time to time (the destruction of Inupras may very well had been one such occassion in which some smart-ass artificer decided to mess with a pact with Demogorgon) and capturing/binding devils is just one of the hundreds possible ways the Imaskari fulfilled their ends of the bargains. So we have the Imaskari messing around, binding devils and opening portals and planar rifts on a whim (seeing how much they employed traslocation magic and planar magic it's a wonder we don't have MORE reports of Imaskari screwing things up and permanent planar rifts forming anywhere in eastern Faerun/central Toril). In conclusion, we can freely say the Dark Pit was an Imaskari binding/planar experiment gone wrong (noting that at its peak, the Imaskari empire stretched south to the Durpari lands and Ulgarth so a few outposts in modern day Shaar are reasonable).
Some time later (centuries? millennias?) Fraz-Urb'Luu enters the scene, he is involved in a complex backstabbing maneuver that has Eltab bound on Toril with most of his leutanants and servitor demons (Ndulu got banished back home with some buddies only in 786 DR), he (and probably all self-respecting abyssal lords) knows about Astaroth's fate and about the fact Gargauth likes to wander Toril and kill/absorb/bind powerful fiends stranded there. His involvment in the "Eltab affair" ensures that he knows practically everything about him and his binding status at any time (including about the Everlasting Wyrm), we can say he keeps tabs on Eltab (... ok that was bad, sorry!). Eltab gets released by the Myrkulites and is free to do what he pleases, Fraz knows the old bullhead will find a way to renege on his pact with the fanatics and go about his business so he tips off Gargauth about this powerfull fiend bound on Toril and weakened by ages of imprisonment and a pact with lunatic fanatics.
Fraz motives are simple: if the two battle and Eltab bites the dust he has more time to further his schemes and try to seize Eltab's Layer (either because the Adamantine Binding snatches Eltab back inside a Demoncyst or Gargauth beats the crap out of him and Eltab has to spend time reforming in the Abyss and, once reformed, his mightily weakened), if on the other hand is Gargauth that bites the dust then Fraz has won a great victory for the Abyss in the Blood War (using Eltab as a pawn, to add insult to injury) gaining political influence and swaying the opinion of lesser demons to his advantage (thus strenghtening his armies and power in the Abyss).
Thus we have the Eltab-Gargauth fight we were looking for and we have Hilather tipping the balance in Eltab's favor by helping the Myrkulites bind Gargauth someplace outside their "holy realm" of Eltabranar, someplace with planar connections and binding rituals ready to be used, someplace the old Imaskari artificer knows was built to hold, bind and capture devils: the Dark Pit. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 06:13:00
Those were some ace references. If I remember rightly the anachtyr demonsbane shields were the inspiration for the Shoon empire and Halaster to create the demonshields.
Just one question, how did Gargauth know about the everlasting wyrm, I must have missed that bit. Otherwise it's all looking relatively solid, at least as solid as scattered bits of realmslore can anyway |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 02:02:51
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Damn, i turn my head for a day and you run off with all this juicy speculation!
Going in order from my last post (and avoiding nasty multiquote shuffle-effects):
1 - The three Demonsbane shields were created by the church of Anachtyr in 44 DR to aid paladin champions in battling fiends in the Calishar Emirates (modern day Amn and southern Sword Coast) [Source Dragons of Faerun, page 135, starting at line 13 from the top of the page]. Excluding that someone created three shields with the exact same names, these are the same three shields used by Impilturan Princes in 786 to banish Ndulu. The thirteen Demonshields were created by Halaster/Hilather in 132 DR and at this point we have sixteen shields made to battle/control demons, divided in two subsets (3 from Anachtyr's faithful and 13 from Halaster).
2 - Gargauth's relation with Astaroth is way more interesting than just "they met under the moonlight and only one walked away". Actually it was Astaroth that infiltrated the Hells and Gargauth was tasked with his destruction. More informations are in Eric L. Boyd's article on Dragon Magazine 357 called Savage Tidings: Gazing into the Abyss, i'll post a question about this story in Eric's thread here at the 'Keep but he hasn't been active since last year it seems.
3 - For me, the effects of "Shattered Night" and it's wondrous binding powers are way too effective to let any "mere" archwizard mess with them and release/bind fiends at will with it (we are talking about godly beings trapped there for eons and with no means of escape, i'm really reluctant to have Halaster casually stop by for 4 years and succeeding were gods and archfiends failed for eons). I find it way more believable that, if Halaster indeed knew about the 73rd Layer, he just experimented tossing fiends in the pools and noting/studying the results with all the magical investigation means at his disposal. Four years later he was able to devise some new binding ritual inspired by his studies of "Shattered Night".
4 - Astaroth was a unique demon, deeply involved with the Blood War and called "Diabolus" by his fellows because he could infiltrate the Hells without risks. He got to the rank of "treasure of Hell", a rank reserved for the greater unique devils that work directly with Asmodeus, then Gargauth discovered him and forced him out of the Hells. Astaroth retreated to the Abyss and started to gather cultists on various Primes, [start of personal musing] on one of these Primes, Toril, Gargauth finally caught up with Astaroth [end of personal musing] and Gargauth killed him (probably with hellfire). At this point, since Astaroth made a pact with Ahazu, his body was bound inside one of the Wells of Darkness (Source Dragon Magazine 357, except for the personal musing). Oh and on his appearance i would be cautious in linking it to any race: unique demons and devils have all kind of weird appendages/wings/tails/claws/pincers/whatever with layers of scaly/feathered/whatever skin attached without actually having any relation to similarly shaped races/monsters.
5 - The idea that Hilather got caught up with Eltab and the Myrkulites and started catching up on all the Realms changes while playing demon-binder on the side is intriguing and interesting at the same time. As is very interesting the notion that the Dark Pit was/is a planar tear/rift, seeing how Halaster was(is?) deeply into planar and conjuration/summoning/binding magic and gates/portals (i mean, just look at Undermountain!)
Speculations the fun of everything 
Oh, and btw, thanks for the references. So much of this is spread across so many books. It really helps. I'm going to respond in kind.
1 - ok, so this makes the demonsbane shields NOT be redeemed demonshields, because Anachtyr's followers made them in 44 DR. So, while interesting and they do in fact come into use against Narfellian forces, they aren't a Hilather/Halaster link.
2 - will have to read that, I know Astaroth invaded hell and became Diabolus, then got chased out by Gargauth. There's a little more in the info about Astaroth's vestige.
3 - hmmmm, I do like that the Dark Pit of Maleficence is another link to shattered night. However, you're right, I don't want it to be any simple matter for Hilather/Halaster to control it. Especially since it was a 20 year ritual from the cult of the dragon to free Gargauth. I'm really envisioning his linkage as providing something akin to a pact with the bound being (aka binder style pact magic), though possibly an even "stronger" pact than what one normally gets. If you look at the effects of the only demonshield given, it would fit well with pact magic, as it provides certain types of defensive energies (DR, elemental immunities/resistances, The only thing I don't like is that when the shield is destroyed, something gets loose. But then, perhaps what happens is if its destroyed it opens a temporary portal to the abyss... it doesn't free the linked entity... I'd be interested to hear other options, as I'm not exactly fond of what I just came up with.
4 - cool, I had found this same info on a web site, but didn't know where it was from. Dragon 357. Yeah, I'm hesitant to tie him to some weird version of the creator races, but it is interesting enough to put that as a back burner idea. Nothing to do with Halaster/Hilather though, so moving on.
5 - yeah, I'm really liking the part where Hilather/Halaster got involved with Eltabranar. I think so far that's the best part and most solidly built part we have. I also like that the Dark Pit is a planar tear. How this planar tear appeared on Toril.... now that part is up for debate. Personally, I'd like to blame the Imaskari for somehow ACCIDENTALLY creating the planar tear to shattered night. I'd also like to say that they were imprisoning beings in it, kind of as an experiment of "lets see what happens". I'd also like to say that the Imaskari maybe had some "cultists" of Ahazu who used this methodology to create new vestiges from fiends that they captured and bound, and that the Imaskari had a lot of knowledge on pact magic that's been lost over time. Personally, I like the idea that Halaster has some knowledge of pact magic (i.e. he's an anima mage), but the canon information doesn't support this.
I do also like the idea that Gargauth also learned of the Dark Pit of Maleficence and was imprisoning beings in it after performing some ritual to strip them of their power. Throw in that he figured he'd mess with Eltab during the reign of Eltabranar and SOMEHOW Hilather showed up and tipped the scales in Eltab's favor (it may have been as simple as maybe he magically tied up/held Gargauth temporarily and then Eltab pushed him into the pit... maybe its relatively easy to put beings in and hard to take them out). It gives us a reason for Gargauth being entrapped, having knowledge of the Everlasting Wyrm, etc...
I also like the idea that Gargauth devised a ritual that only freed the baatezu entrapped within the Dark Pit and encouraged Drakewings to use it. There may have been a lot of Baatezu that were entrapped in the pit by the Imaskari and not by Gargauth, and so in doing so he not only freed himself but helped the hells as well (and probably got himself some new hellish allies). This would of course be why sages think the well is linked to Baator.
|
| Demzer |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 21:09:23
Damn, i turn my head for a day and you run off with all this juicy speculation!
Going in order from my last post (and avoiding nasty multiquote shuffle-effects):
1 - The three Demonsbane shields were created by the church of Anachtyr in 44 DR to aid paladin champions in battling fiends in the Calishar Emirates (modern day Amn and southern Sword Coast) [Source Dragons of Faerun, page 135, starting at line 13 from the top of the page]. Excluding that someone created three shields with the exact same names, these are the same three shields used by Impilturan Princes in 786 to banish Ndulu. The thirteen Demonshields were created by Halaster/Hilather in 132 DR and at this point we have sixteen shields made to battle/control demons, divided in two subsets (3 from Anachtyr's faithful and 13 from Halaster).
2 - Gargauth's relation with Astaroth is way more interesting than just "they met under the moonlight and only one walked away". Actually it was Astaroth that infiltrated the Hells and Gargauth was tasked with his destruction. More informations are in Eric L. Boyd's article on Dragon Magazine 357 called Savage Tidings: Gazing into the Abyss, i'll post a question about this story in Eric's thread here at the 'Keep but he hasn't been active since last year it seems.
3 - For me, the effects of "Shattered Night" and it's wondrous binding powers are way too effective to let any "mere" archwizard mess with them and release/bind fiends at will with it (we are talking about godly beings trapped there for eons and with no means of escape, i'm really reluctant to have Halaster casually stop by for 4 years and succeeding were gods and archfiends failed for eons). I find it way more believable that, if Halaster indeed knew about the 73rd Layer, he just experimented tossing fiends in the pools and noting/studying the results with all the magical investigation means at his disposal. Four years later he was able to devise some new binding ritual inspired by his studies of "Shattered Night".
4 - Astaroth was a unique demon, deeply involved with the Blood War and called "Diabolus" by his fellows because he could infiltrate the Hells without risks. He got to the rank of "treasure of Hell", a rank reserved for the greater unique devils that work directly with Asmodeus, then Gargauth discovered him and forced him out of the Hells. Astaroth retreated to the Abyss and started to gather cultists on various Primes, [start of personal musing] on one of these Primes, Toril, Gargauth finally caught up with Astaroth [end of personal musing] and Gargauth killed him (probably with hellfire). At this point, since Astaroth made a pact with Ahazu, his body was bound inside one of the Wells of Darkness (Source Dragon Magazine 357, except for the personal musing). Oh and on his appearance i would be cautious in linking it to any race: unique demons and devils have all kind of weird appendages/wings/tails/claws/pincers/whatever with layers of scaly/feathered/whatever skin attached without actually having any relation to similarly shaped races/monsters.
5 - The idea that Hilather got caught up with Eltab and the Myrkulites and started catching up on all the Realms changes while playing demon-binder on the side is intriguing and interesting at the same time. As is very interesting the notion that the Dark Pit was/is a planar tear/rift, seeing how Halaster was(is?) deeply into planar and conjuration/summoning/binding magic and gates/portals (i mean, just look at Undermountain!) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 17:04:20
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I always thought that Eltab himself engineered the downfall of Eltabranar. He was bound to their service for 99 years and probably unable to do them direct harm, but whispering how mighty and invincible they are and how much he would be able to help them they get all over confident and declare war on Mulhorand.
Eltab then comes up against Anhur and was hoping to do a runner but he didnt count on Hadryllis and being bound to a demoncyst again.
Eltabranar dies and Eltab's service is conveniently over as he planned all along, unfortunately he is stuck beneath Thaymount.
True, he may have seen the means to create himself an empire and sought to expand. Hilather may have worked both ends there (or he may not have been involved at all and just watched happily), possibly encouraging the two empires to fight and possibly crush one another. After all, the mulan peoples probably didn't like the theocracy of Eltabranar (especially if as I've supposed in some other threads a month or two back that Myrkul may have been involved with the Theurgist Adepts a few millennia prior). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 16:56:19
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Reading Eltab's history, i find it curious that in every note of his imprisonment it mentions that it was a demoncyst used to imprison him in.
Apart from when the witches of Rashemen tracked him to the Sharawood and imprisoned him beneath it.
Kind of says to me they had to find some other way to imprison him (after all why would Eltab hide near a demoncyst if he knows he can be imprisoned in them so easily), what are the chances that a demoncyst exists all the way south in the one place Eltab chose to flee to, its seems too easy.
It is just a shame that the Sharawood and Pelevaran are so far away, it would be so much better if they were nearby and Eltab and Gargauth occupied the same endless pit at different times.
Anyway. Astaroth may well have been a powerful tanar'ri lord in service to Eltab. After all Eltab has 99 years of servitude to the theocracy of Eltabranar, stands to reason he would summon a few demons to his side (or more likely whisper some words of persuasion in a few priestly ears and get them to call them to the realms).
Eltab is known to have many powerful Balors serve him on his plane (Ndulu being one) so Astaroth may have been a contemporary of Ndulu. Balors are awesomely powerful and Gargauth draining one of them is going to boost his power quite considerably.
I'm not so sure of Eltabranar and Gargauth's realm existing at the same time - the dwarves of Underholme might have noted down an unholy war going on on their doorstep - after all demons and devils cant help but continue the bloodwar everywhere they go.
But there is nothing to say Halaster did not spend some time in Eltabranar studying demons, before it fell to Mulhorand and Unther. Then Astaroth heads west and sets up hidden Peleveria in a cliff face and along comes Gargauth and drains him dry. Halaster also happens to be in Peleveria at some point and binds him to the endless pit.
Hmmm, I may have miswrote something if you think I said Gargauth ever had a realm. He didn't. He had cults and he hunted down fiends for their power. Peleveria was just a follow up country that would seem to encompass roughly the same areas as the previous Eltabranar, but 8 centuries separate the two. When Peleveria formed, don't know. What happened in between Peleveria and Eltabranar would require some research.
The facts that we know are that Gargauth "killed" Astaroth, but we also know that Astaroth is now a vestige. Astaroth is actually imprisoned in the Wells of Darkness (73rd layer of the abyss) which has these "wells" that have links to "shattered night". He continually is trying to be resurrected by the Abyss, but Gargauth set hellfire into the well that consumes him before he can reform. This layer is used as a kind of prison, and it used to be used by followers of Ahazu to turn beings into vestiges. Astaroth had actually made some kind of agreement with Ahazu to let his body be imprisoned here after he died so that he could safely reform (a fact which Gargauth twisted). This information is found in Dungeon #148, page 66.
Perhaps after learning of the wells of darkness through killing Astaroth he began searching out similar planar anomalies on Toril, and he found one in the Dark Pit of Maleficence. Maybe he "stored" many fiendish beings in this Pit over the years. Maybe he fought Eltab there, but he was the loser for once and found himself imprisoned (possibly due to Hilather's involvement). Hell, maybe Eltab learned of many demons being stored there, because the planar tear to shattered night (aka the Dark Pit of Maleficence) was actually an accidental creation of the Imaskari and Hilather told Eltab of it.
"http://www.scribd.com/doc/38835505/Tome-of-Magic-Additional-Vestige-Collection-v2-1-2"
Interestingly enough.... Astaroth's form sounds surprisingly like a race of beings mentioned in GHotR (both feathered and draconic). Not sure what to make of that at all. Perhaps the battle between Astaroth and Gargauth was LONG ago.
Manifestation:
Astaroth’s misty form rises up from his seal like a cloud of steam, slowly condensing into theform of a handsome human with draconic and feathered wings. His serpentine tongue flicks nervously as hisbody is slowly consumed with hellfire.
From GHotR, page 7
The last entry in the journal records a remarkable find. Far to the north, hovering above an ice-filled bay, Eartharran discovered an apparently abandoned floating city. During a brief exploration of the place with his crew, the captain sketched several examples of the remarkable statuary they found. From his drawings, it appears that
the city must once have been inhabited by a humanoid race with both draconic and avian features— that is, scales and feathers. The captain openly speculates as to whether the aearee, as he called
these creatures, were the descendants of great wyrms who had evolved avian characteristics, or the forebears of both the draconic and the avian races. The captain’s entry ends with a brief note that he and his crew were forced to flee back to their ship to escape a wing of wyrms that had suddenly appeared on the horizon. I can only guess at the fate of Eartharran and his crew, but the discovery of a broken
black dragon scale amid the wreckage of the ship suggests that their journey met a violent end. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 16:10:50
I always thought that Eltab himself engineered the downfall of Eltabranar. He was bound to their service for 99 years and probably unable to do them direct harm, but whispering how mighty and invincible they are and how much he would be able to help them they get all over confident and declare war on Mulhorand.
Eltab then comes up against Anhur and was hoping to do a runner but he didnt count on Hadryllis and being bound to a demoncyst again.
Eltabranar dies and Eltab's service is conveniently over as he planned all along, unfortunately he is stuck beneath Thaymount.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 16:07:25
Well we can make a good guess as to how the other 3 shields got there. They were present because of the battle between Valashar (Shoon) and Cormyr, the wielders died and the shields got buried with the bodies. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 16:05:55
Reading Eltab's history, i find it curious that in every note of his imprisonment it mentions that it was a demoncyst used to imprison him in.
Apart from when the witches of Rashemen tracked him to the Sharawood and imprisoned him beneath it.
Kind of says to me they had to find some other way to imprison him (after all why would Eltab hide near a demoncyst if he knows he can be imprisoned in them so easily), what are the chances that a demoncyst exists all the way south in the one place Eltab chose to flee to, its seems too easy.
It is just a shame that the Sharawood and Pelevaran are so far away, it would be so much better if they were nearby and Eltab and Gargauth occupied the same endless pit at different times.
Anyway. Astaroth may well have been a powerful tanar'ri lord in service to Eltab. After all Eltab has 99 years of servitude to the theocracy of Eltabranar, stands to reason he would summon a few demons to his side (or more likely whisper some words of persuasion in a few priestly ears and get them to call them to the realms).
Eltab is known to have many powerful Balors serve him on his plane (Ndulu being one) so Astaroth may have been a contemporary of Ndulu. Balors are awesomely powerful and Gargauth draining one of them is going to boost his power quite considerably.
I'm not so sure of Eltabranar and Gargauth's realm existing at the same time - the dwarves of Underholme might have noted down an unholy war going on on their doorstep - after all demons and devils cant help but continue the bloodwar everywhere they go.
But there is nothing to say Halaster did not spend some time in Eltabranar studying demons, before it fell to Mulhorand and Unther. Then Astaroth heads west and sets up hidden Peleveria in a cliff face and along comes Gargauth and drains him dry. Halaster also happens to be in Peleveria at some point and binds him to the endless pit.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 15:45:29
damn can't leave it alone
Something happens to make Hilather/Halaster leave behind his tower in Calimshan. He leaves behind the Shield of the Hidden Lord aka Devilshield. Its picked up by a Calishite noble. Somehow it ends up on the fields of the dead like at least 4 demonshields.
In 889 DR, Lord Tithklar Illehhune finds the Shield of the Hidden Lord on the Fields of the Dead. (as an aside, the Illehhune family MAY share ilythiiri blood due to some notes in GHotR under -10000 DR, descent of the drow). The
I'd imagine the Knights of the Shield begin feeding information to Gargauth through the shield. When Gargauth learns of a new cult forming called the Cult of the Dragon that worships undead dragons, he sees the means of his release. Gargauth informs the Knights of the Shield that they must pass information on to this burgeoning cult, which they do as the group is becoming powerful information brokers. The Knights tell cult members of the "Everlasting Wyrm" dracolich but the information is twisted to have Tuelhalva Drakewings find the Dark Pit of Maleficence. Entrapped within the pit is not only Gargauth, but many other devils who were entrapped by the Imaskari Empire. Tuelhalva Drakewings spends two decades casting a ritual to free the devils (and the ritual is designed to only free beings of Baator/Nine Hells who are entrapped). Gargauth is freed. The devils serve Tuelhalva and take over Peleveria. Gargauth informs the Cult that Tuelhalva assaulted the Everlasting Wyrm. Cult of the Dragon internal war.
Upon Gargauth's release, the Shield of the Hidden Lord has much less power in combat, but it still retains some of its prior magic. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:59:41
All good apart from how did the shield of the hidden lord end up in the fields of the dead.
If Halaster took it back with him it would be in his tower and would have been discovered by the school of wonder surely? he wouldnt have left it lying around in a field, thats not his style.
I like the idea of Halaster working both sides for Gargauth and Eltab. I dont think he would have done so to restore Imaskar though. I'm thinking he did it more to learn about the baatezu and tanar'ri directly so that he could increase his mastery of magic and specifically improve his knowledge of binding creatures and outsiders to places and items (which he can then employ to good use in undermountain).
Time to go and read about Eltab again and see what else can be gleaned from his entry. Man that demon gets around and affects a lot of stuff in the realms |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:53:47
Oh, and on the above idea, perhaps Hilather/Halaster had something to do with the eventual invasion of Eltabranar on southern Unther and Mulhorand in 202 DR. Not sure how, but it would seem to fit an Imaskari wizard's sense of revenge. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:49:45
We do have a ROUGH idea where Peleveria was from Shining South pg 174, and it actually mentions the Dark Pit / Endless Pit. It actually overlaps somewhat with the area where Eltab was bound, and where the earlier theocracy of Eltabranar arose. Your mentions of Gargauth wandering the realms taking out demons makes me wonder something. Did the Endless Pit/Dark Pit of Maleficence exist possibly during the times of Imaskar, and the description that "sages suspect it opens to Baator" is actually wrong and it instead opens onto Shattered Night (like the wells of darkness)? Did Gargauth go after Eltab and Eltab defeated Gargauth (who as you point out was not a god yet)? However, perhaps Eltab had discovered the Dark Pit and decided to imprison Gargauth in it? Hell, for all we know, what if Gargauth had been making use of the Dark Pit himself imprisoning devils there so that they were eventually absorbed and became vestiges (after all, from the wells of darkness, we know that he must have deposited Astaroth in one such pit on the 73rd layer of the abyss (aka wells of darkness layer)). Read through the below and show me my flaws
1st) at some point after 106 DR and before 128 DR, followers of Myrkul from the Theocracy of Eltabranar are sent to delve into Imaskari military stronghold ruins in the nearby Giant's Belt Mountains. They free an Imaskari archmage named Hilather. Hilather is intrigued by the stories of this new being who had risen to godhood from being a mortal, as well as the stories of a society ruled by a demon lord. Hilather is also amazed to discover that his Imaskari brethren are dead and that the Mulan peoples have risen to forge their religion driven empires just to the north of where he "slept" for millennia. Deciding that he may be able to raise an army from this theocracy of Eltabranar to attack the nearby Mulhorandi and Untheric empires, he offers his aid to Eltab while he learns more of this new world.
2nd) Gargauth attacks Eltab. Hilather aids Eltab and tips the tide. They entrap Gargauth in the Dark Pit of Maleficence.
3rd) Hilather begins work on the "devilshield" which is linked to the entrapped devil-in-exile Gargauth. Hilather also begins gathering information on demoncysts and Eltab's hidden layer.
4th) Eltab and Gargauth have a falling out, primarily because Gargauth fears the growing power of Hilather in his empire.
128 DR - Hilather flees to the empire of Shoon and builds a tower. Using knowledge of demoncysts, Hilather channels the energy of the destruction of several demoncysts to create a planar tear to shattered night. He then implants thirteen captured demons from the aforementioned demoncysts into this planar tear and ties them to the creation of his 13 demonshields over the next four years.
Peleveran
The ruins of this ancient city are built into the side of the Landrise, very near the point where the River Shaar emerges from the subterranean portion of its journey. Peleveran was once the capital of an ancient kingdom called Peleveria, which stretched across the plains connecting the Landrise, the Firesteaps, and the Shaarwood. The city was destroyed in the Year of the Dracorage (1018 DR), when it became the site of a devastating conflict between two warring factions of the Cult of the Dragon.
A temple known as the Dark Pit of Maleficence, dedicated to the demigod Gargauth, is hidden deep in the tunnels and caverns beneath the city, inside an immense cavern that once served the city as a granary. At the very bottom of the temple is a nearly bottomless pit that sages suspect connects directly to Baator via a portal.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 09:41:07
Well Sleyvas, your idea about planar tears and Halaster has some support. I found this quote in the write up for Kuraltaar the Demonshield
quote:
In the catacombs beneath his newly
appropriated tower, the Raurinese wizard either located or created
a planar breach between the Material Plane and the Abyss.
Drawing on the large body of genie lore that had been developed
by Calishite sorcerers over the centuries and the process for
creating a mirror of life trapping, he devised a process whereby
he could summon all manner of nether beings and permanently
bind them into physical objects.
So looks like Halaster might have spent the early portion of his reawakening looking for planar tears as part of his research into binding fiends.
It does link Halaster's work to rampaging fiends in the far flung colonies of the Shoon empire so maybe Gargauth was one such fiend that was rampaging (i dont recall if the Shaar ever came under Shoon jurisdiction or not).
Now back to the shield of the hidden lord. I found this quote in the writeup for it.
quote:
the sages and lore masters who are aware of its existence suspect that it might have been first used in a battle on the Fields of the Dead. Crafted from pure mithral, the shield is inlaid with hundreds of tiny diamonds, emeralds, rubies, and sapphires that form the shape of a snarling, bestial face.
So wherever and whenever it was made it was hidden from the rest of the realms and not used until either the battle between the ophidians of Najara and the Shadowking (of Ebon-something) or the battle between Valashar and Cormyr. Probably the later one, so the shield may have only been forged or discovered a few years before that event.
Now reading through Gargauth's entry in powers and pantheons it does say he was exiled and spent many eons wandering the planes particularly the material plane, centred on Toril where. It then says at one point during his travels he defeated Astaroth, a tanar'ri lord of great power and appropriated his worship giving him his first taste of godhood.
Now this bit is slightly ambiguous. It doesnt say where he encountered Astaroth, but since Gargauth spent most of his time on the world of Abeir Toril it is a good bet he encountered him there. It also doesnt say whether Astaroth ruled his own layer of the abyss, only that he was a powerful tanar'ri lord. So Astaroth may well have been called to Toril and had set up his own mini kingdom in Toril which Gargauth found. It also doesnt say that Astaroth was destroyed, only defeated, so maybe Gargauth killed him on the material plane and banished him to the Abyss for 1001 years (or however long they were banished for). Then it states this gave Gargauth his first taste of godhood but not that he became a god (that comes later) so this was probably the first instance of Gargauth killing a fiend and taking his worshippers which gave him a bit of a power boost and helped him form his plan.
Now shortly after 1022 DR, the battle at the Silver Sign of the Harp inn in Sembia (where the harpers congregated after their reformation) it states Gargauth ascended to demigod status after centuries of "permanently destroying" baatezu that had entered Faerun in person, he then absorbed their power and cultists worship.
So Astaroth may have been killed somewhere between 23DR and 822 DR (because it says centuries and not millenia) which kind of puts us in the time frame for fiends rampaging across the Shoon empire and prompting the creation of Kuraltaar and the other demonsbane shields.
So perhaps the whole Astaroth, binding of Gargauth, forging of the demonsbane shields, and Halaster are all connected.
Maybe the shield of the hidden lord was one such demonsbane shield created by Halaster to fight the rampaging fiends wandering the Shoon colonies, maybe his most powerful shield. The wielder of the shield (doesnt have to be Halaster since it was said that these shields were given to generals of the Shoon empire) bound a portion of Gargauth's essence into the shield and went a wandering with it only to die during the battle between Shoon and Cormyr.
Meanwhile Peleveran was the centre of Gargauth's empire and his primary residence on Toril, he had dwelled there so long a planar tear had formed linking Toril to Nessus (its a really deep trench after all, almost endless in fact), when the Demonsbane shield was used on Gargauth it couldnt contain all his essence and so the remainder was imprisoned in this planar breach or tear. Now it is stated that Tuelhalva spent two decades working on a spell to release Gargauth so maybe he was working to undo Halaster's binding spells (that would take a lot of time even for an archmage).
One last curious thing from Gargauth's entry was that the final paragraph of his history states he plots to eventually recover all his lost lands.
This kind of supports Gargauth having a mini empire, Peleveran may have been one such city and so the kingdom of Peleveria may have belonged to him, it is well hidden in the side of a cliff i believe and that would be fitting for the hidden lord.
It may have been a kingdom hidden within the Shoon empire and the source of many of the fiends that rampaged throughout the Shoon empire at the time of the forging of the demonsbane shields. I'm not quite sure how Peleveria is tied into Astaroth but perhaps Gargauth slew him there and created the kingdom and city to commemorate his victory, or maybe he robbed it from Astaroth who created the kingdom first.
Anyway, ramblings over |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 04:07:01
I like the idea of the Dark Pit being a planar rift/tear. Nice one sleyvas.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 01:36:23
Oh, and if those 3 particular shields were redeemed by the holy power of Anachtyr and PERHAPS tied to demons tied in a demoncyst in Impiltur, might they have had some means to "send back" or "somehow control" that demoncyst. Could they have somehow opened the path to a demoncyst from the hidden layer of the abyss and forced the demons into it? Could Ndulu be thus trapped and awaiting Eltab releasing him?
Also, just one other niggling thing in regards the well of darkness. It was a big thing where Ahazu's cultists were taking demon and devil lords and turning them into vestiges by bringing them to the well of darkness layer of the abyss and trapping them in "shattered night". Then they overreached and they tried to entrap... Orcus... who plays into so much lore regarding Narfell. This from dungeon #148. Not sure if it might fit into anything, but interesting. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 01:27:38
Yeah, that's why I try to stay away from multi-quotes.
On the part about Gargauth being in the abyss and that being a problem with the blood war. Remember, he's an exiled Baatezu lord. The Abyssal Lords may see that as grounds enough to at least entreat with him. They may see him as a rogue mercenary for hire as a result.... or they may let him have a place to stay in return for simple fealty in case of invasion (and Gargauth will typically stick to the letter of a contract, unlike most demons). Or hell, he may have been playing diplomat between two abyssal lords as a somewhat trustworthy intermediary.
However, you just threw out the argument that makes me truly wonder. Was Hilather actually freed in 128 DR? It states he began exploring Faerun that year. However, in this same year, he settled down and built a tower all the way across the world in Calimshan. Granted, at the time, this was probably the closest thing he could find to his Imaskari Empire. But, I'd imagine he studied the world a bit prior to making the move, maybe via scrying. Also, what was one of the nearest countries? There were Mulhorand and Unther, both theocracies that he would have hated. Then there was the theocracy of Eltabrannar, a kingdom devoted to the worship of Myrkul, but with Eltab at its head. I'd imagine that it was members of this theocracy that may have freed Hilather, and he may have learned of the demoncysts from Eltab himself. In fact, Hilather may have fled from Eltabrannar to Caliimshan in an attempt to protect himself from becoming a pawn of Eltab's. In talking with Eltab, he may have learned of demoncysts and Gargauth being imprisoned nearby in the endless pit (whether the endless pit be demoncyst or not can be up for debate). There is the option that Gargauth was imprisoned by the Imaskari as an option, as well. Maybe Hilather simply travelled to the endless pit to try and make some kind of "devilshield" by binding the vestige of Astaroth OR the real Gargauth to the Shield of the Hidden Lord.
128 DR Year of the Addled Arcanist
The Raurinese wizard Hilather [–2488, 132], after millennia trapped in temporal stasis, begins to explore Faerűn. He is hired by the Imperial Court to develop a more secure means of binding fiends to the will of their summoners. He establishes himself in an abandoned tower in the remote emirate of Torsil, which lies along the Sword Coast between the Cloud Peaks and Candlekeep.
Anyway, the endless pit and the research into the wells of darkness brought back an old wonder. I'd wondered if Gargauth had been entrapped in a Toril bound "well of darkness" that held a planar tear to shattered night (see dungeon #148, wells of darkness, page 63). It would kind of explain why it was called an endless pit, and since these special planar tears aren't confined to just the abyss.... why couldn't there be one on Toril? In fact, what if the special planar tear that Hilather created beneath his tower in Calimshan was a similar link to the 73rd layer of the abyss (aka the Well of Darkness).
Yeah, I saw the part about the three shields in Eltab's entry, and it even more made me think there's some linkage. The names of the shields are very similar to the demonshields. That three of them could be used to make a vortex portal of some sort is also interesting. Where is the part about the church of Anachtyr and creating three demonsbane shields from? I'm kind of wondering... could those have been demonshields that were "redeemed" by the holy power of Anachtyr?
786 DR Year of the Moaning Gorge
The Battle of Moaning Gorge: Ndulu’s army is met by the great-grandsons of King Sarshel at the mouth of a gorge that leads deep into the Earthspurs, just outside the gates of the Citadel of Conjurers. Employing three shields—Kimeltaar, Naelotaar, and Dizeltaaar—and the sword Demonbane, the Paladin Princes form a vortex portal and through it drive Ndulu [731] and his horde back into the Abyss. Crown Prince Essys and Prince Araln are slain in the fighting. Nord, the youngest of the three, is named crown prince
and heir to the throne.
|
| Demzer |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 20:29:34
Uh i don't know why but each time i do multiquotes the posts got messed up and the quotes and the things i write under them get shuffled around, hope what i wrote still makes sense (the find about the demonsbane shields should be at the bottom of my post). |
| Demzer |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 20:27:08
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not saying that anything related to the abyss is automatically related to a demoncyst. I'm just saying that perhaps the special nature of these demonshields may require "entrapped" or "bound" demons in some form. After all, the "special nature" of these demonshields are what make them something that would draw wizards from all over Faerun to try and get one should it become available. If you could bind any old demon, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out. It could be that genies that are to be entrapped in bottles may have similar requirements (i.e some extradimensional dwelling place be created that they are bound to). Since these demonshields were created barely 250 years following the fall of Narfell, perhaps Hilather/Halaster took advantage of something that few individuals actually knew about (since many of the Narfellian wizards involved were killed in the final acts of the war).
The biggest problems i have with this are two:
1- the means of creation of the Demonshields are written in the writeup for Kuraltaar in Dragons of Faerun and there's no mention of anything Narfellian or to the Demoncysts;
2- Hilater/Halaster was in temporal stasis from -2488 to 128 so i don't see were he could've gained his knowledge about Narfell and the Demoncysts.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On where Astaroth was killed, where did you get that he was killed specifically on Toril? Not saying he was or wasn't, but it makes more sense for a Abyssal lord turned divinity to be killed on his home plane. The only entries I see for him in P&P and the Well of Darkness Adventure in Dungeon #148 make no mention of WHERE he was killed. The entry in P&P indicates that the death of Astaroth "gave Gargauth his first taste of godhood".
I say he was killed on Toril because in Powers & Pantheons it clearly says that Gargauth's modus operandi was to kill fiends on Toril and leech both their power/essence and their followers/cultists. I still think Astaroth wasn't divine, he was powerfull but not enough to survive Gargauth's assault and Gargauth went divine with the boost gained from killing Astaroth and absorbing his cultists.
I find it way more believable for an abyssal lord stranded on Toril to be permanently killed by an outcast baatezu than for an outcast baatezu to go to the Abyss and bitch-slap an abyssal lord turned divine in his home plane (even if not on his Layer, any abyssal lord is at an advantage against any baatezu in the Abyss).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not that it makes any difference in the story I'm laying out. I agree Gargauth wandered around. What we do know is that he wasn't in the nine hells. Who is to say he wasn't on Eltab's layer when it was mixed with the realms and thus became entrapped? He may have been infiltrating the Abyss posing as Astaroth or someone else. He may have been in some kind of negotiations with Eltab. Hell, maybe even Fraz'Urb'Luu knew that Gargauth was entreating with Eltab and arranged his son, the nentyarch of Narfell, to create the demoncysts in order to imprison them both (or at least Gargauth, as Gargauth and Fraz both deal with deception to a degree).... or perhaps Fraz was also involved and betrayed by his own son?
This is where i invoke Occam's Razor and say that there are too much exceptional and highly unlikely (more like impossible) events to be believable. We are talking about baatezu and tanar'ri in full blown Blood War, not a dignitary or diplomatic envoy from some human kingdom paying a visit to some important political figure of another human kingdom.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Another entirely different idea is that Halaster/Hilather wasn't binding demons that were entrapped somehow in some weird planar anomaly. Maybe he was using Vestiges of demons and devils (who are entrapped in another way)? Maybe somehow Hilather bound the vestige of Astaroth to the Shield of the Hidden Lord, and Gargauth is using his own linkage to Astaroth to hijack the link to sometimes animate the shield. The one interesting point here is that the 4 demonshields that were destroyed supposedly freed their entrapped prisoners, so if it were vestiges.... kind of scary.
Aren't vestiges dead-only? I don't know, i know little about them, aren't they kind of spiritual remnants of dead beings? I don't know if the destruction of a vestige's vessel can resurrect the vestigial being, the demons that destroyed the School of Wonder were alive and kicking (and calling buddies to kick even more) after being freed from the shields.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Anyway, the base idea was that it seemed odd that at least 4 of the demonshields and the Shield of the Hidden Lord were all found on the Fields of the Dead... and so perhaps they had some kind of similar origin through Halaster/Hilather. The base idea has merit, and I'm sure we could work through details to make a good plot.
Undoubtely the idea has merit, i'll try looking in all the good old 2e sourcebooks to find more hints and bits to throw at the discussion.
Eh ... hey i may just have to pull the stick out of my arse here ... while writing i decided to check a thing just to be sure and you know what i found? In the Kuraltaar writeup in Dragons of Faerun is said that the Demonshields were the official response of the Shoon Imperium to repeated problems with demons gone mad in the Calishar Emirates, and you know who else worked to put a stop to the demonic onslaught? The church of Anachtyr, how? By creating three demonsbane shields, rings any bell? Kimeltaar, Naelotaar and Dizeltaar, the three demonsbane shields used by Impiltur's Princes to finally send Ndulu and his army back to the Abyss ... interesting. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 20:08:48
Looks like I was thinking about the battle of god's theatre which turns out was in the tunlands.
Looking into it the fields of the dead were used first as a battleground between the serpentfolk and the shadowking, then by the fight between Valashar and Cormyr.
Nothing to indicate how an artefact linked to Gargauth got there though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 16:46:25
This is another thread I'm going to have to go over with a fine tooth-comb - some good stuff here. 
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The only link I can think of is the Shaar was Illythiir territory a long time ago and I think the fields of the dead were the site of an ancient elven massacre (maybe involving the illythiir but I have something in my mind telling me the orcs spoiled the show). Maybe the elves imprisoned Gargauth all that time ago during the crown wars.
The Fields of the Dead have nothing to do with elves and all to do with Calimshan's history and the Shoon Imperium. The Fields were the northern borders of the Imperium and a lot of wars (both offense and defense) were fought there during the centuries, thus leading to the name and the fame (with farmers still uncovering bones, corpses, rusted weapons and armors and lost treasures, no undeads roaming here).
He may have been thinking of The High Moor, where the Miyeritari were slaughtered by The Dark Disaster. That was caused by Gold Elves, Not Dark Elves (the Dark Elves were the victims, actually, along with their Green-elf cousins).
The Shoon Imperium did indeed extend FAR north - an area of 'the Backlands' was even considered a duchy or some-such of theirs, at one point. I still don't understand how a fairly weak and new-born Cormyr beat the crap out of one of the most powerful empires in Realms history.
The Shaar was the Ilythiir 'stomping grounds', but much of it was covered with forest at that time (and the northern reaches of it held at least three green-elf kingdoms, which lends credence to my theory that 'Dark elves' were really nothing more then a southern branch of wild {green} elves - that modern-day green elves and drow were originally all part of a larger Grugach ethnic group, which would have been nearly all green elves at that time.) It was the High/Eladrin Elves who brought civilization with them. |
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