| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 22:00:14
Have there ever been examples of a sunelf noble family having a Moonblade? Or perhaps Sunblades? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 07 Jan 2014 : 00:07:48
Yeah well its part of the mystery i guess.
By the way. Thanks for all the knowledgable answers!  |
| khorne |
Posted - 20 Dec 2013 : 15:34:00
I must say that this is something that has bothered me ever since I first read about Moonblades. It just seemed...iffy to me that an entire race of elves were inherently incapable of being worthy of one of the swords. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 12 Nov 2013 : 12:56:14
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
In my campaign, so, the very few elves who possibly heard about the Starym moonblade specifically would dismiss the idea, believing the Seldarine to be too powerful for a human god to corrupt one of their artifacts...
This was a more likely attitude before Myth Drannor. Also, but Moander is not only "a human god", it corrupted elves too when it could.
I just read it again. In fact, I was implying that ELVES would consider him an human deity, since he is not part of the Seldarine. But actually I'd better replace "human" with N'Tel'Quess deity. 
EDIT: As for before or after Myth Drannor, I don't think elven attitude towards humans changed after this or that event or period in time. There were and are some places - like Myth Drannor and Silverymoon - in which these racial relations were better, but there are still many haughty elves around, in every time you consider. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 11 Nov 2013 : 11:56:21
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
(...)
Moander is not only "a human god", it corrupted elves too when it could.
(...)
This also raises the question of Moander corrupting, you know, elves.
I was considering him a human deity because he doesn't belong to the elven pantheon. But yes, gods from one pantheon interfere in the lives of other races, either directly (by Moander corrupting elves or Solonor accepting human archers in his holy grounds in Evereska) or indirectly (by all followers declaring war against an enemy race, for example). But yes, you can think of some deities - maybe most - as conceptual beings, not belonging to one race or the other.
This issue is discussed in 2e Draconomicon, among other sources, where it is stated that maybe the god of justice of the dragons and Tyr are different aspects of the same deity, or that Tyr would appear to dragons as a draconic god, even if he showed himself up as a mighty dragon.
In 2e DragonLance, where there are only 21 gods, this is true and clearly seen. And I think 4e has gone that way, by declaring that Sehanine and Selūne are one and the same, as Gruumsh and Talos would be different names of but one deity. Not my choice in my campaigns, but yet a possibility.
I think gods are gods, and too powerful for human beings to deal with, unless in very exceptional circumstances, and could be only checked by deities of greater stature. But this may not be the case, as discussed before.
EDIT: But most important, understanding deities and their roles and relations among themselves should be beyond the scope of mortal PCs, and left as a mysterious and undefined matter, maybe even more supernatural and unreachable than magic itself. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 11 Nov 2013 : 11:20:41
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think it is basically a rule that (with a few minor exceptions), the gods of FR don't keep track of the items they have blessed. Yes there are a couple that seem to have their constant attention but not many. For the most part, they leave all that to their clergy/followers to deal with. So in this case - its up to the elves to look after moonblades.
I'd say since moonblades would possibly shape the future of the entire elven people it would be one of the few items that would have continual attention from the Seldarine. But lore only says clearly that they had and have the perpetual attention of the elves - even after the choosing of the king, since Mrs. Cunningham once declared that in the unlikely possibility that the royal family is totally wiped out, another clan would possibly be determines by their moonblade powers and sucession, just like in the original choosing. Being so, I can agree that using their followers the Seldarine would be, in a way, taking care of this issue. But I cannot say the Seldarine are not watching... Once again, that's why it's open in my game. We don't have to determine everything, after all. If you like the Starym moonblade idea, you can opt for this explanation, though. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 04:12:05
I think it is basically a rule that (with a few minor exceptions), the gods of FR don't keep track of the items they have blessed. Yes there are a couple that seem to have their constant attention but not many. For the most part, they leave all that to their clergy/followers to deal with. So in this case - its up to the elves to look after moonblades. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 08:10:05
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
In my campaign, so, the very few elves who possibly heard about the Starym moonblade specifically would dismiss the idea, believing the Seldarine to be too powerful for a human god to corrupt one of their artifacts...
This was a more likely attitude before Myth Drannor. Also, but Moander is not only "a human god", it corrupted elves too when it could.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I see it, but unless Moander had a very good way of hiding it, I think the Seldarine would be vigilant and maybe would counteract after the corruption. After all, such corruption would have a huge impact over all the elven People in the Realms.
This also raises the question of Moander corrupting, you know, elves.
And, as the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen already mentioned, it was noticed in Tyche only when well underway.
Thus one slightly subverted (not blatantly changed to something entirely different) blessed artifact (not even a full relic as such) would not immediately stand out either, especially since at this point it was just a cool magical item, no stored spirits.
Thus the answer remains "possible", whether it happened or is just a runaway cautionary fairy-tale entwined with something else. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 03:59:38
Nothin like a good moonmelon on a warm summer night :P
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 12:45:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Originally, it was in the article 'Of Kings Unknown' from Dungeon Magazine 25 on Page 30.
Thank you very much, Masked Mage!
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Also to be found in the article are moonmelons and moonorcs.
     |
| Barastir |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 12:42:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
...
Like, even Elaith's heir Azariah, who is half Moon Elf, could not draw hers without dying.
...
It was never established that Azariah could not draw her moon blade. In fact, in one short story she picks it up without ill effects (aside from Elaith's temper, that is).
...
In fact, as we discussed before in elven genetics, she was not a half moon or even a gold elf, she was a moon elf.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
If only we could convince WOTC to contract Elaine to finish the novels she was working on...
We wish so, but this issue is deeper, and involves Mrs. Cunningham ending her novels - both Reclamation and The Serpent's Daughter were projects that she was actually contracted by WOTC to do but could not finish for her own reasons, among them the need to change some plans after the publishing of new lore about the moonblades, in canon. Face to this new lore, she could not use some elements she devised originally. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 03:16:51
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Have there ever been examples of a sunelf noble family having a Moonblade? Or perhaps Sunblades?
Isn't it death for a Gold Elf to try to draw a moonblade?
Like, even Elaith's heir Azariah, who is half Moon Elf, could not draw hers without dying.
Moonblades in particular were special only for Moon elves.
But there were always special Elf Swords. The Elfsword of Myth Drannor was a ruler's blade was it not? And any worthy elf could draw it
It was never established that Azariah could not draw her moon blade. In fact, in one short story she picks it up without ill effects (aside from Elaith's temper, that is). His concern in my view (I never asked if I read it correctly) was that she was not properly prepared. Elaith trained for over a century to be worthy of the blade and in the end found out that he was not worthy. It was perhaps his greatest fear that the same shame that drove him from his ancestral homelands and his love would fall upon his daughter.
If only we could convince WOTC to contract Elaine to finish the novels she was working on... |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 20:57:03
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
And Masked Mage, have you seen that I asked (please) for the reference to the moonbeam moonblade? Any other sage?
I have now. :)
The easiest place to find it is among all the other swords in the 4th Encyclopedia Magica book.
Originally, it was in the article 'Of Kings Unknown' from Dungeon Magazine 25 on Page 30. Also to be found in the article are moonmelons and moonorcs. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 16:57:35
It makes sense, even if one blade would suffice to spoil the process of choosing the king. Maybe they would let go AFTER the king was chosen... But maybe you're right... That's why I let it open, as I said.
And Masked Mage, have you seen that I asked (please) for the reference to the moonbeam moonblade? Any other sage? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 14:06:23
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...The blessings of the Seldarine on the blades was a one-time thing, channeled thru a mortal spellcaster...
I see it, but unless Moander had a very good way of hiding it, I think the Seldarine would be vigilant and maybe would counteract after the corruption. After all, such corruption would have a huge impact over all the elven People in the Realms.
That would imply that the Seldarine would be actively tracking every blade and taking a direct interest in who lead their mortal followers... And while I do see the Seldarine having some interest in this, elven history pretty much proves that the Seldarine, like many deities, do let their followers make their own mistakes. It was elves who decided to let magical blades decide, not a mandate from Corellon.
Not only that, but we're talking about one blade. One. That's not something that's going to have all that dramatic an impact...
And if a major power couldn't see corruption in themselves, I don't see it as all that difficult to hide a minor tweak to a magical sword. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 13:07:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...The blessings of the Seldarine on the blades was a one-time thing, channeled thru a mortal spellcaster...
I see it, but unless Moander had a very good way of hiding it, I think the Seldarine would be vigilant and maybe would counteract after the corruption. After all, such corruption would have a huge impact over all the elven People in the Realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 11:57:09
There's a difference between one deity overcoming the blessings of another, as opposed to a straight-up conflict between them. The blessings of the Seldarine on the blades was a one-time thing, channeled thru a mortal spellcaster. I have no problem with a deity managing to twist that a bit -- especially a deity that actually corrupted another deity in her prime. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 11:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
For me, I like magic to be more mysterious. Most of the humans in Faerun would have never heard of moonblades at all, and given it's history, I'd like to think that almost no one anywhere - including the vast majority of elves - know that the Starym moonblade is out there somewhere. At best there would be rumors, as none of the blade wielders in the past would likely come forward to offer information.
I like this, too. Magic IS mysterious in my games, but as far as I know the moonblades existence and purpose is quite known among the elves because the swords would determine their royalty, so they should know rumors about the blades to accept the king or queen that would come through them (it's the "Excalibur" of the elves). Note that the specific powers would not be known, but they would see moonfighters in awe and respect.
Humans started hearing about it only in multi-racial societies where elves are very present and/or influent (like Myth Drannor or Silverymoon), since this story is millenia old, and even then it would happen rarely, but with more frequency specially after Danilo Thann told a bit of his story in his ballads - that are canonically recognized as popular, at least in Waterdeep and its surroundings.
As for Moander being the god of corruption, I've mentioned this in my previous posts, so it's a matter of opinion. I think maybe Moander could do it when he was in his prime, but it seems he was already weakened at the time of the corruption of the Starym moonblade. Besides, there was an entire pantheon who could deal with the powers that oppose corruption, and that would apply their portfolios to impede it from happening (at least one would have a portfolio against corruption, and all have a greater status than Moander's), but once again, this is only what I think, and in fact this is irrelevant to my game, so I don't spend too much time thinking about it.
In my campaign, so, the very few elves who possibly heard about the Starym moonblade specifically would dismiss the idea, believing the Seldarine to be too powerful for a human god to corrupt one of their artifacts... But I let it open, as I said, for magic is mysterious, and because the stance of the elves could be pure arrogance from their part.
EDIT: How about the other moonblades' (the ones with the moonbeam power) source? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 00:22:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And here I thought Elaine would have been more miffed by Rich stealing her 'plant only once' Tree of Souls. Compared to that, the Moonblades are a minor thing, IMO.
I think the difference is that moonblades were her idea (and the central theme of about 1/3 of her work) and the TOS she got from someone else. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 00:20:00
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
EDIT: The alternative would be that the Starym moonblade would be only a legend, a human fabrication. In my campaign, I left the possibilities open, and I'll probably never use this artifact.
For me, I like magic to be more mysterious. Most of the humans in Faerun would have never heard of moonblades at all, and given it's history, I'd like to think that almost no one anywhere - including the vast majority of elves - know that the Starym moonblade is out there somewhere. At best there would be rumors, as none of the blade wielders in the past would likely come forward to offer information. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 00:13:53
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I accepted or liked the Starym moonblade story when I first saw it, but Mrs. Cunningham said something interesting about the topic: the moonblades were created with the blessings of an entire pantheon, and so it is arguable that one god (and one of a lesser status, by the way, even if his portfolio is specific about corruption) could so easily corrupt one of the blades. Of course, this is one of the changes that came without Mrs. Cunningham knowledge or consent, and seeing that way I can only agree with her, specially if you think that corrupting one blade a lesser god would possibly affect the Sedarine's plan of choosing a worthy ruler to Evermeet.
Yeah, she said the same thing to me once, but my reply was simple. For most gods, I would accept that logic, but Moander is the god of corruption. Corruption is not only what he does, it is what he is. The idea that anything is wholly incorruptible by nature doesn't wash in my mind so if anyone can do it, it would be him. Further, Moander and the elves have a long history of such corruption (basically all of the interesting history we have for Moander involves the elves up until Alias. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 00:09:47
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
In the end, I think all of the changes in moonblade lore over the years have been well thought out (NOTE - I do not in any way like the ritual at the end of the Blackstaff novel that used inert moonblades for towers around the unsharn. In my world nothing in that chapter ever happened. I don't know if 4th Ed. brought any new changes so assume I'm not talking about those if they exist).
I'm intrigued as to why you didn't like Steven's Hopeblade idea. Care to expand?
-- George Krashos
Krash - It was not only the Hopeblade idea that I didn't like, but rather all of the novel that dealt with the centuries long planned ritual. Basically, the entire book read like - here is one bit of cryptic Realm's Lore I can take and explain and change to make my own - and here's another - and another... on and on. The sharn's mysterious nature wiped away, the NPCs that were either resurrected or redirected or permanently killed off, the High Moor spoiled by a new lovely summer getaway land of peace and harmony and elves that shite rainbows, the moonblades, etc. - for me that book was basically the moment I realized any hope I had for realms future products was doomed. It was the last one I read until E.G. did his newer ones
NOTE: reading through this scroll again this sounds much harsher than I meant it :P sorry Steven. Guess that's what happens when a scribe from Wisconsin forgets to keep track of his ale :D |
| Barastir |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 15:46:52
I accepted or liked the Starym moonblade story when I first saw it, but Mrs. Cunningham said something interesting about the topic: the moonblades were created with the blessings of an entire pantheon, and so it is arguable that one god (and one of a lesser status, by the way, even if his portfolio is specific about corruption) could so easily corrupt one of the blades. Of course, this is one of the changes that came without Mrs. Cunningham knowledge or consent, and seeing that way I can only agree with her, specially if you think that corrupting one blade a lesser god would possibly affect the Sedarine's plan of choosing a worthy ruler to Evermeet.
EDIT: The alternative would be that the Starym moonblade would be only a legend, a human fabrication. In my campaign, I left the possibilities open, and I'll probably never use this artifact. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 12:54:37
And here I thought Elaine would have been more miffed by Rich stealing her 'plant only once' Tree of Souls. Compared to that, the Moonblades are a minor thing, IMO.
I liked the idea of a corrupted Moonblade for the Staryms, though. Thats a nice work-around.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 10:48:36
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
In the end, I think all of the changes in moonblade lore over the years have been well thought out (NOTE - I do not in any way like the ritual at the end of the Blackstaff novel that used inert moonblades for towers around the unsharn. In my world nothing in that chapter ever happened. I don't know if 4th Ed. brought any new changes so assume I'm not talking about those if they exist).
I'm intrigued as to why you didn't like Steven's Hopeblade idea. Care to expand?
-- George Krashos |
| Barastir |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 10:20:21
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
What I meant by "a sunelf that's more moonelf than sunelf" was that this individual was the Drizzt of sunelves...
Well, about this possibility, I wrote in my post: "note, while individual sun elves could have this trait, it is only natural to moon elves, who would keep it on the entire clan lineage." We must remember that the sword chose individuals but that their ultimate role was to find a lineage worthy of becoming the rulers of Evermeet. So, one individual claiming one blade would not be a big deal.
About the moonblades cited by The Masked Mage, they are obviously another kind of item with the same name, not the famed blades we are discussing about here (there are also "moonblades" that are magical constructs created by a spell from Selūne - and Sehanine - followers). TMM, can you please cite where can I find these moonblades you mentioned? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 03:48:15
Re: the Starym Moonblade...
I'll throw in a little of what Eric Boyd said with regard to his work on the Starym Moonblade -
" ... as the creator of said Starym Moonblade, I would characterize it as a "former moonblade." It was a moonblade. Then it was corrupted by a god (Moander). Therefore, it's not really a moonblade any more, but obviously it is still referred to as such (and thinks of itself as such)." |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 03:40:44
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Have there ever been examples of a sunelf noble family having a Moonblade? Or perhaps Sunblades?
As an alternate note, there were 'moonblades' and 'sunblades' published by TSR in the years before Elaine wrote her books. These were not in any way related to elves. Sunblades were from the DMG and had a sunray power and moonblades had a moonbeam power. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Nov 2013 : 03:30:45
I once had an ongoing conversation about this very topic with Elaine. It was after Volos Guide To All Things Magical and the publication of the Starym Moonblade. No, she was not at all happy about it. :P
I on the other hand loved the idea of the corrupted blade, though I thought its history was too short so i extended it back a dozen generations or so. :D
In the end, I think all of the changes in moonblade lore over the years have been well thought out (NOTE - I do not in any way like the ritual at the end of the Blackstaff novel that used inert moonblades for towers around the unsharn. In my world nothing in that chapter ever happened. I don't know if 4th Ed. brought any new changes so assume I'm not talking about those if they exist). In theory, the test of the moonblade is a ritual that judges an individual's worth - not the worth of his or her family. This is the thinking that allows for moonblade wielders that are not moon elves. I cannot imagine anyone would want to argue that had Coronal Eltargrim or Josidiah Starym or the Srinshee attempted to draw a moonblade that it would have found any of them unfit and struck them down. All were successful in drawing one of the Elfblades with similar tests of character and worth, remember, and all were gold elves of exceptional character.
There is a trait, more common to moon elves than to other types of elves that I think is key. It is to look at themselves as "elves" not as moon elves. The moonblades are magic created in service to the Seldarine and in service to ALL elves. An elf whose outlook reflects this thinking - an elf who lives to serve and protect all elves would not be found wanting. The stereotypes attributed to each of the elven races are no more concrete than those attributed to RW races. Sometimes they hold true, but other times they could not be less accurate. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 17:58:16
What I meant by "a sunelf that's more moonelf than sunelf" was that this individual was the Drizzt of sunelves. He/she would be a full blooded sunelf, but she wouldn't act/behave/think like other sunelves. I always been of the opinion that the moonblades rejected the sunelves because they're well.. jerks (keeping it pg.) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 17:32:17
We do have at least one moonblade that has become corrupted... It's not unreasonable to assume another may have also been corrupted or at least twisted.
Another possibility -- one that could allow for a moonblade to pass to a non-moon elf -- is if a moonblade is somehow re-purposed. Perhaps a blade could have been modified by powerful magic, so that Evermeet's succession is no longer an issue for it. Or maybe it could be something like what happened with Arilyn's moonblade -- first, she modified it so that Danilo could touch it, and then she replaced that power with the dedication to the elves of Tethyr.
What if a moon elf, somewhere along the way, added the ability for their sun elf lover to wield the blade? What if the moon elven offspring of this union, also a moonfighter, later needed an unrelated elf to wield the blade for some really noble cause that helped all elves? And so on... It'd be a multi-step, unique process, but it's not unreasonable to assume that after several generations, a blade could be removed from the succession process and rededicated to another purpose, thus accepting any suitable elven wielder.
It's not something I, personally, would do -- I prefer to keep the blades with their original purpose. But if the backstory was done correctly -- which would include some very compelling reasons for the change -- then I could see a one-off moonblade that could be wielded by non-moon elves. And you could even use this to explain away Rich Baker's flub, which as I recall he admitted was because he wasn't familiar with the moonblade lore.
Of course, it would be considerably easier to simply hand your gold elf a powerful, unique magic sword that wasn't a moonblade. At some point, it simply isn't worth the effort to justify something.
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