| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Galaven |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 05:23:43
To preface, this may be the wrong subforum for this post, and if so, I apologize. First time posting here, so not really sure of the difference between this and the general board.
I've been roped into a Forgotten Realms campaign by some of my girlfriend's friends, and this'll be the first time I've ever played D&D. These folks seem to know their stuff, and, I'm told, take great delight in getting down to gritty, granular details of character, so I guess I better know my stuff, too. To that end, I have some questions about Helm, as it's a 3.5 campaign, and I've decided Helm sounds good as a deity for my paladin.
The first issue I'm having is trying to wrap my head around Helm's portfolio and how it relates to paladins. He's the god of guardians, watchers, and protectors, and I've read a lot of internet discussion that suggests this means his paladins tend to be pretty static - as in, they're not expeditionary, instead hanging around guarding important stuff. One of his orders, however (Companions of the One True Vision, I think?) is described as being precisely the opposite, in the sense that they crusade around looking for fights. Is it a little from Column A and a little from Column B, or what?
I suppose a corollary question would be what Helmite paladins actually stand for. Kelemvor's got the undead-hunting sort locked up, Torm has the "flower of chivalry" sorts, Sune has the defenders of beauty, Ilmater has his guys who fight wanton cruelty and torturers, and so on. Most gods who have paladins seem to have some sort of focus for those paladins that goes beyond simply fighting evil, so I'm curious what Helm's would be.
And even another corollary: Torm and Helm seem awfully alike. Is the only difference that one's chivalrous and the other's pragmatic?
Finally, on to Maztica. First and foremost, is there any sourcebook that goes into the Helmite crusade there? Was it even a Helmite crusade? I get that it's basically the Spanish conquest of Central/South America (which I guess lends credence to the notion that Helm does indeed have room in his following for crusaders, at least of the pragmatic bent), but I'm unclear as to why, exactly, it occurred the way it did, and why Helm apparently supported it. Apparently the order I mentioned earlier, the Companions of the One True Vision, were involved? Any help on that front would be appreciated. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:09:13
Elaine's take on paladins in THORNHOLD is much lauded. You should check that out.
My own work with FR paladinhood is largely set in the 4e world, though it incorporates the same lawful good context paladins have always followed in previous editions. My character Shadowbane at least starts off in DOWNSHADOW as a Lawful Good paladin of Tyr/Helm/Torm (who gets spells from Torm, obviously), and he kind of wanders in his moral/spiritual journey from there.
A clarification: quote:
Originally posted by Galaven
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Tormites/Tormtar are often quite pragmatic and notoriously inflexible in following the word rather than the spirit of the law. Willingly breaking their paths is a spiritual failing on their part.
Wait, Tormtar are quite pragmatic? I would have thought the opposite.
I mispoke, I meant Helmites. Tormites/Tormtar are the optimistic "butt kicking for goodness!" types. Helmites are the "you broke the law, I'm kicking your ass" types.
quote:
Originally posted by Galaven
Oh, absolutely. I don't imagine a paladin of Helm wouldn't be primarily good, simply that he might go about being primarily good in a different way than, say, a paladin of Lathander. Though I could very well be wrong.
Sounds about right to me!
quote:
Ultimately, I guess that's what my question is; of the 3.5 FR deities that allow paladins, what's the difference, really, in the way they comport themselves? If they're all chivalrous knights in shining armor who differ only in their favored enemies (undead for Kelemvor, followers of Loviatar for Ilmater, etc.), then it seems that patron deity is a rather cosmetic and shallow choice. So I don't imagine that's the case.
Paladins are easily stereotyped as being all chivalric knights in shining armor, but they vary as widely as their chosen deities.
Helm has few paladins, but those he does have are rigid, pragmatic, inflexible, and lean more toward law than goodness. That doesn't mean they don't believe in good--far from it--they just don't see how good can ever involve being outside of a strictly ordered system.
By contrast, Lathanderite paladins are vibrant, creative, imaginative warrior-priests who champion the cause of goodness and light. Their oaths are extremely important to them--order is, after all, the natural way of the world, with the sun always rising in the east and setting in the west--but they are always pushing for innovation and rethinking of how to achieve good through a progressive view of the law. A Helmite paladin would probably find a Lathanderite paladin too flighty and "liberal," whilst a Lathanderite paladin would view a Helmite as a stodgy, stick-in-the-mud.
It gets really interesting when you get to paladins of unusual deities, like paladins of Sune (who believe in love as the foundation for goodness and a peaceful, empathic society) or paladins of Mystra (who are steadfast guardians of the proper and responsible use of magic for the good of all). If Kelemvor had paladins (and I'm not sure if he does--I'm away from my books at the moment), they would probably be cold, taciturn, and inflexible in their duties to watch over the dying and guard the dead, because it is the right and proper thing to do.
Cheers |
| Galaven |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 15:37:01
Oh, absolutely. I don't imagine a paladin of Helm wouldn't be primarily good, simply that he might go about being primarily good in a different way than, say, a paladin of Lathander. Though I could very well be wrong.
Ultimately, I guess that's what my question is; of the 3.5 FR deities that allow paladins, what's the difference, really, in the way they comport themselves? If they're all chivalrous knights in shining armor who differ only in their favored enemies (undead for Kelemvor, followers of Loviatar for Ilmater, etc.), then it seems that patron deity is a rather cosmetic and shallow choice. So I don't imagine that's the case. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 14:54:47
One of the things I see you getting mixed up with here is paladins and worshippers who are warriors or another class. Helm has worshippers who are LN...they aren't paladins. They may be fighters, rangers, barbarians, wizards, clerics, monks, etc..... So, there are some factions of Helm's followers who put the letter of the law before the spirit of the law. So, if they're ordered to take a noble's bastard son that he never cared about from the grandmother that's caring for him since the mother is dead, he's apt to do it. The paladins will always favor the "good" interpretations of the laws and seek "good" ends, and so if he sees in this same situation that the grandmother is the best for the child he would defy the law and may help grandmother and grandchild run.... or he may seek some dirt on the nobleman and "encourage" him to lay off and possibly donate money and/or a home and/or a job as a nanny to the grandmother. |
| Galaven |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 04:47:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Elaine did a lot with Paladins and Torm.
Looks like quite a long book. Doubt I'll have time to get through it before the campaign starts, so I may just stick with Helm for now, on the assumption that Torm's all about the flowery language and unicorn sparkles. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 04:24:37
Elaine did a lot with Paladins and Torm. |
| Galaven |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 02:05:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Read Thornhold.
Dare I ask why?  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 19:07:09
quote:
Originally posted by Galaven
Indeed. As the campaign I'm getting involved in is edition 3.5, though, I assume Helm's still around and kicking.
Nevertheless, I'm starting to get at least a bit intrigued by Torm, and am curious if grim, brusque paladin sorts would be sponsored by him, or if all of his guys need to go for the plumed knight straight out of Arthurian legend sort of thing.
Read Thornhold. |
| Galaven |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 09:39:26
Indeed. As the campaign I'm getting involved in is edition 3.5, though, I assume Helm's still around and kicking.
Nevertheless, I'm starting to get at least a bit intrigued by Torm, and am curious if grim, brusque paladin sorts would be sponsored by him, or if all of his guys need to go for the plumed knight straight out of Arthurian legend sort of thing. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 15:22:17
I think that analogy is fairly apt.
I was only speaking in generalities, and across the eras. There are plenty of extremely good people (including paladins) sworn to Helm--that's just not the norm as it is with Torm. "Knight" and "paladin" aren't synonymous, and plenty of knights aren't lawful good. And no, Helmites are not just "stand around guarding things" people--they are police, bodyguards, and crusaders out to keep their paths. There's a very militant wing of the faith devoted to the eradication of evil/darkness in the world, which is unusual in a Lawful Neutral church.
I will also note, about eras, that Helm's faith almost doesn't exist in the 4e FR, mostly because the god himself perished in 1384. Some people cling to tradition, but they don't receive spells from a dead god. As of the Sundering, however, things are changing.
Cheers |
| Galaven |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 10:28:51
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Helm is a god of bodyguards, keepers, watchmen, and knights sworn to defend a person, realm, or cause. His servants are unswervingly loyal and never betray the trust placed in them (or, at least, that's the ideal). They are extremely LAWFUL, but are as likely to be GOOD (ie like paladins) as NEUTRAL (ie not giving much thought to the moral implications of their actions). Tormites/Tormtar are often quite pragmatic and notoriously inflexible in following the word rather than the spirit of the law. Willingly breaking their paths is a spiritual failing on their part.
Wait, Tormtar are quite pragmatic? I would have thought the opposite.
quote:
Torm is a god of paladins, knights errant, crusaders, and heroes who believe in advancing the joint causes of LAW and GOOD. Proper order is necessary for the good of all, and justice is essential for everyone's happiness. (In 4e FR he becomes the god of Law/Justice.) If they dislike a law, they won't break it but they'll work to change it. They actively crusade against evil people and monsters, unlike knights of Helm, who may work with or even for evil causes if their paths require it. More paladins are drawn to the optimistic Torm than the more pragmatic/morally gray Helm.
Is that true even in 3.5 Realms, where paladins are required to be Lawful Good regardless of their chosen patron deity?
quote:
That's the basic rundown. I'd be happy to answer questions or help out, as I quite like both deities. Heck, my ongoing FR series SHADOWBANE is about a paladin sworn to a heresy that unites Helm, Tyr, and Torm (the Threefold God).
Yes, I'd actually seen that mentioned on the FR wiki. You have one new customer. :) It sounds like an interesting concept. If the campaign I'd been invited to were 4E rather than 3.5, I have a feeling this is the route I'd opt to go.
I think the main problem I'm having at this point is reconciling the popular opinion of Helmites as the guys who stand around guarding stuff with the fact that Helm pretty clearly had some more aggressive paladin orders who were all about crusading around and getting up in evil's grille, apparently on the "offense is the best defense" principal.
Torm has that too, obviously, perhaps even more so, but I get the impression that Tormites are just way more concerned with the chivalric side of paladinhood than Helmites. Knights of the Round Table (Tormites) vs. the Judge Dredd approach (Helmites). Is that roughly accurate? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 07:54:58
Helm is a god of bodyguards, keepers, watchmen, and knights sworn to defend a person, realm, or cause. His servants are unswervingly loyal and never betray the trust placed in them (or, at least, that's the ideal). They are extremely LAWFUL, but are as likely to be GOOD (ie like paladins) as NEUTRAL (ie not giving much thought to the moral implications of their actions). Tormites/Tormtar are often quite pragmatic and notoriously inflexible in following the word rather than the spirit of the law. Willingly breaking their paths is a spiritual failing on their part.
Torm is a god of paladins, knights errant, crusaders, and heroes who believe in advancing the joint causes of LAW and GOOD. Proper order is necessary for the good of all, and justice is essential for everyone's happiness. (In 4e FR he becomes the god of Law/Justice.) If they dislike a law, they won't break it but they'll work to change it. They actively crusade against evil people and monsters, unlike knights of Helm, who may work with or even for evil causes if their paths require it. More paladins are drawn to the optimistic Torm than the more pragmatic/morally gray Helm.
That's the basic rundown. I'd be happy to answer questions or help out, as I quite like both deities. Heck, my ongoing FR series SHADOWBANE is about a paladin sworn to a heresy that unites Helm, Tyr, and Torm (the Threefold God).
Cheers |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 06:15:30
The Vigilant Eye of Helm subtype of paladin is detailed in Heroes of Valor. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 06:06:41
As far as Maztica goes, the story is a long one (a full chapter of the Maztica boxed set). The short version is that A man named Cordell (read Cortes) lead an expedition of about 500 to Maztica - this is called the Golden Legion - among them are Helmites. Misunderstandings occurred. Casualties occucred. The Mazticans captured one of the two women brought on the expedition, who happened to be the daughter of the chief cleric of Helm there. He came to passionately hate all Mazticans so peace became all but impossible. He made it his mission to destroy all the temples of Maztican gods - basically he succeeded in parallel with Cordell's quest for gold. |
| Galaven |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 05:54:50
Ah, so the One True Vision didn't even have paladins in it. Interesting. If anything, I'm more confused. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 05:50:31
"The members of the Companions of the One True Vision, an order of Helmite clerics, fighters, and crusaders, were known for being unswervingly loyal shock troops able to follow orders asking them to engage the most difficult objectives without breaking and hold the most trying positions against overwhelming odds. Recently, however, members of this order, many of whom served in the Helmite actions in Maztica have taken a beating in popular reputation. Other affiliated Helmite orders include
a small fellowship of battlefield healer known as the Watchers Over the Fallen, a group of dedicated bodyguards whom Helmite temples hire out to others to generate revenue called the Everwatch Knights, and an order of paladins called the Vigilant Eyes of the God." |
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