| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sluban |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 12:39:15
I am not big fan of forgotten realms but I play some computer games and read some about lore. And I have a question. Drow males are treat so bad in Drow society (by the way I don't know why they don't revolt) and often are sacrificed and used as bulk of army (mainly common warriors suffering great casualties). So it's like females should outnumbered them because they didn't die so often. And if there are much more females why drow males aren't more valuable if there is lack of them.
I also worry why there are much more female Drow outcast (sometimes good) than males? It is that they are surplus and there are no place for them? For example:
-Viconia (from Baldur's Gate)
-Liriel Baenre
-Nathyrra (from NWN)
-Zhai mother (from Demon Stone)
From male outcast only Drizzt is well known.
I think that all this universum is little irrational.
Sorry for my english because I am from Poland. :) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sagechan |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 22:09:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think all of you are missing a couple big points about Lolth worshiping drow. MOST drow born never reach adulthood. Children of non nobles are basically slaves and are used as fodder as discussed above. Noble children are looked upon as tools for their mothers. The useful ones are kept, the others discarded. Even when a child proves useful, it then has to 1) survive training with all the deadly adversaries the city has trying to pick them off 2) pass Lolth's test, which apparently also has more to do with ambition and ability than faith in Lolth - and 3) not become too much of a threat to the power of their other family members.
In most of these things, MALES tend to survive more because they are less of a threat. Training "accidents" happen of course, but no more than with females. When Lolth is testing a female, she is testing a priestess, not just a lowly foot-soldier so she is more stringent. All this adds up to more males surviving long enough to become the fodder for patrols and wars. Only the truly exceptional males (or the ones who manage to survive their time as fodder) survive long enough to attain any position within the family (usually they become breeding stock for the constant 'knock-em up - shoot-em out' system of procreation they embrace.
While agree with the description not sure if I agree with the "most don't reach adulthood" at least based on novel excepts (with an obvious focus on Menzo) it seems drow don't produce children at an extremely fast rate. I think RAS described that the sheer number of children in the Baenre family was highly unusual. While the drow have a hierarchy of fodder, even the weakest male is consider far more valuable then the slaves and goblinkin that get used first for that roll.
Unless your the unfortunate third living son, i think your overall chance of reaching adulthood is pretty good in drow society. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 19:24:06
I think all of you are missing a couple big points about Lolth worshiping drow. MOST drow born never reach adulthood. Children of non nobles are basically slaves and are used as fodder as discussed above. Noble children are looked upon as tools for their mothers. The useful ones are kept, the others discarded. Even when a child proves useful, it then has to 1) survive training with all the deadly adversaries the city has trying to pick them off 2) pass Lolth's test, which apparently also has more to do with ambition and ability than faith in Lolth - and 3) not become too much of a threat to the power of their other family members.
In most of these things, MALES tend to survive more because they are less of a threat. Training "accidents" happen of course, but no more than with females. When Lolth is testing a female, she is testing a priestess, not just a lowly foot-soldier so she is more stringent. All this adds up to more males surviving long enough to become the fodder for patrols and wars. Only the truly exceptional males (or the ones who manage to survive their time as fodder) survive long enough to attain any position within the family (usually they become breeding stock for the constant 'knock-em up - shoot-em out' system of procreation they embrace.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 18:57:57
Just another note regarding patrols and males/females. Female orders males to attack. Female thereby draws attention to themselves. Enemy targets leaders (as happens in most wars, the officers are big targets). Female drops. Males surviving flee if they cannot win, agreeing on a story of the failure of the female. If they can win, they do so, returning with the body of the female as proof of her failure. Female drow superiors are apt to agree that the female was inept (because they're all egotists). They may punish the males, but few would destroy them and thereby lessen their own power and/or potential to attract future followers. The only time they need to be very very careful is if the female was a highly positioned member of a big house... and lets face it, those individuals aren't going on everyday patrols.... they're sitting around the city plotting and sending the lesser females out to make a name for themselves on patrols. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 12:14:34
As previously mentioned, drow are incredibly fertile - much more fertile than any other subtype of elves. Drow households with six or more children are not uncommon. Also, drow live for hundreds of years and remain fertile for most of their lives.
Also previously mentioned, drow males who prove to be adept survivors could easily father dozens of children with several different women since not only is the fact that he has the skills to live that long a desirable trait, but he'd also not necessarily have to have a hand in raising any of them. In a numbers game it's...possible, if not likely that this is feasible. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 10:08:46
Well, i may be completely wrong but the quoted paragraph (thanks BEAST) doesn't say "each and every time a drow female dies, 15 to 20 males suddendly fall dead". It clearly talks about war between Houses and Priestesses of Lolth and that's not something that happens everyday, otherwise there wouldn't be drow cities left standing by the time any of us runs a campaign (or authors write novels/sourcebooks).
This can let us hypothesize a few things:
- in warfare outside city walls drows use slaves, summoned and bound monsters and undead, so the male losses aren't as bad as that of, say, surface human cities were the armies are made of able bodied males and that's it;
- each and every time something goes wrong for a house/city/temple, the females get the blame, so for the 5 or 10 males dead in a battle there are 2 or 3 priestesses sacrificed for incompetence;
- there are intrigues and assassinations inside each House that surely doesn't involve the annihilation of the said House defenses: if two or more sisters/cousins war for supremacy they aren't going to destroy their own House (killing too many slaves/males means another House will come knocking guns blazing) and the victims will be limited, but the females that lost the war will be gone (and maybe the one that won too, if the Matron feels endangered). This is because the males are completely excluded from inheritance and powerplaces while the females have to fight with tooth and nail to become "the One", otherwise they're just a tad less expendable than the males;
- we like to imagine the entire drow society is made of gorgeus priestesses of Lolth rolling naked in fine silk sheets while ordering countless males to death but the truth is that what's true for Noble Houses' drows isn't true for lower Houses' drows and common drows. Being a female drow outside a Noble House puts the ball in the middle again, gender-parity-wise: not only you're subject to the common dangers of drow society but you have the highborn priestesses plotting to kill you if you try to make a name for yourself and the highborn males eager to take on you the revenge they can't take on their sisters/matrons/lovers, while a lowly born male is just another expendable soldier/wizard/slave in the making.
All of this to say: is there inbalance in male/female body count in drow society (as a whole)? Yes, absolutely.
Is this so high as to threaten the existence of drow society? Absolutely not. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Oct 2013 : 01:57:14
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
Sorry sleyvas but I must completly disagree. Most male drows must die fighting outside (but also in fights against houses). How many female drow warriors you saw patrolling? They usually have only one priestess in team the rest are males (In Drizzt comics Homeland it's clear). Starvation, disease, old age, accident, etc. also must more affect males because females on average live in better conditions. Only risk with can affects only females is pregnancy but it's rare to die from it. Ok in attacks on other houses are also slaves and monster but also male drows(of course defeated house is all wiped out). And remmember about sacrifices where majority of sacrificed are males (every third born male is sacrificed). It's overwhelming deaths of males. So 15-20 males to 1 female most likely fit to all deaths.
You misread me... males are more likely to die a violent death than females. Females are more likely to die of old age, accident, starvation, etc... because they send the men off to die violent deaths in their place. Everyone's got to die (well, normally). |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 14:50:52
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
This sentence makes it pretty clear what I allready mentioned. Those internal wars for better standing and power only happens between the noble houses. The normal drow population is mostly unaffected by this, expect for those who get dragged into such fights.
Drizzts guide to the underdark also suggests this:
quote:
In cities that follow the Way of Lolth, the
dark elven populace is typically ruled by several dozen
noble houses, ranked in a strict hierarchy.
...
A constant, intense, treacherous, and deadly competition
seethes among the various noble houses, mirrored by
the constant struggle among individual priestesses, #145;to
increase relative station.
|
| Thauranil |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 14:59:00
Hmm that does not seem practical to me. 15 to 1 is far too lopsided a ratio for any society, even a violent and chaotic one like the drow. |
| Sluban |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 21:52:47
Sorry sleyvas but I must completly disagree. Most male drows must die fighting outside (but also in fights against houses). How many female drow warriors you saw patrolling? They usually have only one priestess in team the rest are males (In Drizzt comics Homeland it's clear). Starvation, disease, old age, accident, etc. also must more affect males because females on average live in better conditions. Only risk with can affects only females is pregnancy but it's rare to die from it. Ok in attacks on other houses are also slaves and monster but also male drows(of course defeated house is all wiped out). And remmember about sacrifices where majority of sacrificed are males (every third born male is sacrificed). It's overwhelming deaths of males. So 15-20 males to 1 female most likely fit to all deaths. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 20:23:08
hmmm, and another add-on. The sentences seems to imply, but doesn't necessarily mean 15 to 20 DROW males. Given their tendency to use other races as fodder, and said races tending to use their males for such service.... kind of a weak answer, I know, but still worth considering. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 20:17:20
Oh, another factor I didn't account for in the above, because its more likely to affect drow females than males... how many female priests of Lolth take the test of Lolth and are found wanting versus the number of males? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 20:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
Ok, this makes more sense. So, this isn't saying that "in everyday life 15 to 20 males die for every female that dies". This is saying "whenever there are internal political struggles, fifteen to twenty males die for each female lost". So, lets take this a bit further. Whenever they are in the safety of their home and playing political shenanigans (which is NOT all the time, despite what the books say, because a large portion of their time is surviving), they are apt to round up a lot of males (possibly mercenaries) to use as fodder.
So, presumably, in protecting their cities, patrolling the surroundings, trying to make a name for themselves, etc.... a lot of females probably end up dying, whereas the males on such patrols and such are probably less "zealous" and more "wary". Also, what percentage of time is spent on political intrigue plots that lead to death of the female drow intriguing versus the amount of time fighting threats to their city? I'd think it would be generous to say that this number is maybe 5% (bearing in mind, a lot of political intrigues simply cause shame and embarrassment or loss of money). So, lets assume that out on patrols/defending the city/etc..., females are slightly more likely to die trying to prove themselves... say 60% females to 40% males. Now, lets take a cross section of 1000 females and 1000 males. Assuming that 5% of females are killed in political intrigues (50) and 60% of the remaining 95% are killed in other pursuits (570).... for a total of 620 "violent" deaths of female drow and 380 deaths by other means (starvation, disease, old age, accident, etc...). For the males, with the political intrigues if we assume 16 on average per female, we have 800 and those dying on patrol etc..... would be 950 x 40% = 380. So, assuming very few males die via things like starvation, disease, old age, accident, etc.... BECAUSE of the political environment (lets say tag on 100 male deaths of this sort)... that would imply that somehow there would need to be more male drow born than female (not many mind you, only about 20% different).
Note, if that statement of 15 to 20 were more like 10 to 15 OR if my assumption on the number of deaths caused by political intrigue is even slightly lower (say 3% compared to 5%), then things do actually even out(i.e. at 3% we're talking only 30 females lost and the number of males lost drops from 800 to 480... a huge difference). Ultimately, what it boils down to is that males are more likely to die a violent death in drow society.... which is actually the case in human society as well, no? |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 12:55:04
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
Well the only thing that occurs to me, without more context, is falls does not mean death. Males meeting Doom of course does not mean death either, both can mean failure.
Notice that the same sentence talks of bodies marking the fortunes of drow Houses. It doesn't sound like live bodies, to me . . . |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 05:09:55
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
Well the only thing that occurs to me, without more context, is falls does not mean death. Males meeting Doom of course does not mean death either, both can mean failure. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 04:49:44
Here's the quote y'all are looking for. And it's even worse for male drow than what others remembered:
quote:
Female drow usually throw themselves with energy and zeal into the endless, vicious intrigue and politics of the city. The bodies of many mark every twist and turn in the fortunes of the Houses, and the everchanging favor of fickle Lloth--but for every drow female who falls, fifteen to twenty males meet doom. (Menzoberranzan [Boxed Set], BkI: p5)
|
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 02:47:12
I misplaced, with help I am sure, my print copy so do not know if the source quote can be found there. *shrugs*. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 00:05:21
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just what canon lore says that more males die than female? Not someone's gut feeling or "they seem to be portrayed that way".
Hi this was offered up scroll.
But what is the actual canon quote? I hear people say things like this all the time, and spoken out of context it sounds a lot worse than when you read it in the book. I'm currently searching my copy of menzoberranzan for the word male. I've yet to find anything that sounds like this quote. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 23:08:55
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
So I think it's simply irrational[...] It's simply can't work.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Correct. Drow society is not viable in a real life sense. [..] The viability of drow society is generally hand waved away to the will of Lolth and that's how she likes it/directs it etc.
Just as a follow up to the above:
quote:
By this point, some of you might be wondering how drow society has survived at all. How can a culture this sadistic, this prone to betrayal and infighting, this bereft of any legal or moral code, possibly last for more than a few generations without obliterating itself?
The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly nonviable. By all rights, it should have murdered itself into oblivion eons ago.
It is only the will of the goddess Lolth that prevents this circumstance from coming about. The Spider Queen likes her drow just as they are--violent, vicious, murderous, and treacherous. It suits her for their society to continue in this manner, and so continue it does.
Lolth works her will partly through her church. [...]
The Queen of Spiders is not a subtle or patient goddess, however, and if she feels that her priestesses are unable to take effective steps in such a matter, she steps in directly. As much as she encourages infighting and bloodshed, she grows wroth indeed at drow who threaten to collapse their entire precarious social system. [...] (Drow of the Underdark, 3.5E, ChI:p26)
Lolth lets the drow screw themselves over all the time. But if looks like it's getting to the point that it might bring an end to the drow society as a whole, she'll step in. She might give someone a vision to make a change. She might magically gift someone. Or she might just whack someone where they stand.
She's a fickle one, that Lolth. She even contradicts her own thirst for chaos and disorder, now and again.
She's a woman. It's her prerogative to change her mind!  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 20:26:12
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just what canon lore says that more males die than female? Not someone's gut feeling or "they seem to be portrayed that way".
Hi this was offered up scroll.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I'm only making the guess of male drow dying more as the old 2E Menzo boxed set states that for every female that dies, 10 to 15 drow males are killed. It's possible that only applies to Menzoberranzan.
As even Eilserus offers that death rate might only apply to that city. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 19:57:09
Just what canon lore says that more males die than female? Not someone's gut feeling or "they seem to be portrayed that way". |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 19:15:18
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
Ok sorry for calling Kentinal ignorant, but for me it isn't my opinion it is obvious, when we sum what we know about drow society. And I know that it's only fantasy world but it should have some rules and should be rational in basis. And it's irrational to still kill male drows and take new out of nowhere. What sadist(and feminist) someone must be to invent something like this?
It's never really been stated why Lolth is like that in regards to males. I would assume it has to do with her hatred of Correllon after her failed bid for power in Arvandor. And does kind of line up with how she planned to dispose of her husband. He did turn her in a tanar'ri and banish her to the Abyss. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 19:03:49
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
But my question was how they can exist when there are much more females and males still are treat worse. This society will go to annihilation. And what with all surplus females? Why males are still less valuable when after harsh treatment there will be much less of them than females?
By the way I know about other types of drow society but they are in minority. And they can revolt because females can't exist without males and they have other dieties to back them. Male drows also have powerful mages. Malavon did successful revolt.
One thing to note, their society is NOT monogamous. So, one male can father multiple families.... they need to not piss the other females off doing it, but .... |
| Sluban |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 10:16:59
Ok sorry for calling Kentinal ignorant, but for me it isn't my opinion it is obvious, when we sum what we know about drow society. And I know that it's only fantasy world but it should have some rules and should be rational in basis. And it's irrational to still kill male drows and take new out of nowhere. What sadist(and feminist) someone must be to invent something like this? |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 09:57:30
You do realize you are talking about a fantasy world here?
Even if you where right, and as I allready said I don't think you are, it wouldn't matter because most things in evey fantasy world wouldn't work out the same in the real world. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 22:06:52
I don't think we need to call people ignorant simply because we disagree.  |
| Sluban |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:44:18
You must be ignorant to say this. Everyone who think logical can conclude that drow males die far more often than females. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:41:12
quote:
Originally posted by Sluban
It's impossible. There aren't mentioned anywhere that there are born more male than female drows. It's will be visible that drows have more sons than daughters. For example Drizzt mother have equal numbers of daughters and sons. And it's imposible to be born as many as 10 males to 1 females. Can't you just admit that forgotten realms are irrational?
Many would say Realms are irrational. I do concede that I know of no canon that says male birthrate greater then female, OTOH I do not know any canon that says birth rate is equal either.
Oh as far as male female death rate, odds are very good it related to a city and even most likely a time period and city. |
| Sluban |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 21:32:26
It's impossible. There aren't mentioned anywhere that there are born more male than female drows. It's will be visible that drows have more sons than daughters. For example Drizzt mother have equal numbers of daughters and sons. And it's imposible to be born as many as 10 males to 1 females. Can't you just admit that forgotten realms are irrational? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 20:37:39
Well there can be an option that one might consider.
Drow are reported to be very fertile, the having many children over a 400 or so time line clearly allows for many births.
There is no rule that children have a 50 percent chance of being either gender. In fact some cultures using a version of rhythm system increased the percentage of males born as to females. The science has to do with how fast the sperm swims, males are faster though die quicker.
Thus clearly it is possible by following a timing program, far more males might be conceived then females each generation.
There again this is a place where Earth science does not apply and magic abounds and one could say that there are always enough of each gender to fill their fated roles. *S* |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 19:11:37
Correct. Drow society is not viable in a real life sense. If you need something more realistic, you'd have to develop it or modify to fit your needs. The viability of drow society is generally hand waved away to the will of Lolth and that's how she likes it/directs it etc. |
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