| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 09:10:20
I found that they left Tilverton in 1364 and headed northwest, from where they moved North-west into the Desertsmouth Mts to reclaim Tethyamar.
I also heard that nothing was ever heard from them again and they were defeated.
Is there any evidence on WHO defeated them?
Or is the information wrong and they found parts of the Kingdom and just keep it a secret?
Thanks for all information as always |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 14:10:41
I too noticed inconsistencies between the various books and events at the battle of the bones.
The orcs supposedly formed Ularim and summoned great fiends.
Then in another book it states that only legends now recall a time when hobgoblins were able to summon fiends from the lower planes and cast powerful spells.
Again in one book it stated that hobgoblins made up a large bulk of the forces at the battle of the bones and sustained heavy casualties and then in another no mention was made of hobgoblins and it was orcs that formed the bulk of the forces.
It is almost as if the reports of the battle of the bones were describing two different forces.
So either the two different accounts are referring to different battles during the conflict each with a different composition of forces.
Or the description is different based on the perception of who was telling the story. So forces from Cormyr having fell victim to Hlundadim forces in the past might have described them as hobgoblins, wereas forces from the western heartlands might have described them as orcs, or vice versa, i guess whatever you are afraid of most is what your memory makes the centre piece of the horrfic conflict.
I personally am happy for both to have been part of the cooperative magic circles. The ularim could have been a title of a unit in the army from Hlundadim (he formed an empire so i think it not unlikely for the empire to have an organised army). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 13:53:30
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
Hi George,
thanks again for this amount of insight given.
I always thought in Hlundadim the Circle Magic ( Same magic to sink one of the cities on the moonsea coast, right? ) was practiced not only by orcs but also by other humanoid races, including ogres ang goblinoids.
The original reference to "ularim" is from the Stonelands and Goblin Marches booklet from the "Elminster's Ecologies" boxed set. On p.7 it specifically states that orc shamans formed ularim. That's not to say that goblin and hobgoblin spellcasters didn't have their own unique forms of magic, but I've just stuck with the original reference.
I do note however that it is my interpretation of this bit of realmslore that has made ularim a type of humanoid circle magic. The original reference just states that "Orc shamans, in units called ularim, held their own against many human wizards". I note that the hobgoblin write-up on p.15 does talk about hobgoblin shamans and their ability to summon servants from the lower planes and cast extremely powerful spells, but no further details are provided.
Can hobgoblins and goblins form ularim? I would say no. Have they at some stage in their history developed their own type of cooperative spell casting? I would say yes.
-- George Krashos
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 13:40:57
Why would you link the Imaskari with the Fey?
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 13:18:32
Funny you should mention 'circle magic'....
I was just thinking about it last night, and realized that the first humans to probably practice that sort of magical ritual would have been the Imaskari, who would have learned it from the Fey (directly or indirectly).
Then it spread from there, after their empire crumbled and a dozen+ successor-states rose to the fore.
Now I could go on to assume that the Orcs/goblinoids learned this magic during their wars with Mulhorand (and Unther), but I have a feeling they knew that stuff a long, LONG time before humans did. After all, we know Elves use it (High Magic Rituals), and then we have that article in Dragon that says Corellon and Gruumsh were brothers.
Both Druids circles and witch covens were outgrowths of this magical tradition, but it was those races that were reared by the Fey that have known it the longest. It is a form of communal magic, and well-suited to 'primitive' cultures.
I dreamed an article last night, and this was just a small part of it. I should write it down before it all fades away... |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 07:58:55
Hi George,
thanks again for this amount of insight given.
I always thought in Hlundadim the Circle Magic ( Same magic to sink one of the cities on the moonsea coast, right? ) was practiced not only by orcs but also by other humanoid races, including ogres ang goblinoids. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 05:03:17
Check out the side bar in "Lost Empires of Faerun", pgs. 134-135.
-- George Krashos
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 03:42:58
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I would say that the number of dwarves wouldn't have been greater than 1,500 or so. While the goal of the Mithril Legion was to "reclaim Tethyamar", it was really only to probe the defences - a reconnaissance in force if you will. Access to the mines through one of the outer gates and the establishment of a solid seeming defensive perimeter saw them probe further and they ran afoul of a "yurshash" or trap portal in the orcish tongue and suffered the fate set out in LEoF. You see, Tethyamar remains one of the last bastions of powerful, cooperative orcish "circle" magic - with shamans able to craft heights of spellcraft not seen in humanoid ranks for centuries - and this has only been enhanced by the infusion of demonic blood brought on by the barghest influence. Tethyamar remains a tough nut to crack, but js reclaimable. Any would be conqueror would probably have to undertake some very careful preliminary activity to see various factions in the Mines played off against each other, and an elaborate diversion would probably be required to bleed off some of the main battle strength from the complex proper - if all those things fell into place, then an army might well reclaim the Mines if their timing was perfect and luck was in.
-- George Krashos
I always thought goblins (of all three sorts) were the driving strength behind the fall of Tethyamar.
Did the orcs and goblins come together from the Goblin Marches, or did the orcs simply join after the goblins came into the Desertsmouth Mountains?
How did all this come together? |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 02:36:18
Kurgoth Hellspawn led an army against Maerimydra that sacked the city and was supposedly from the mines. Would you say Fire Giants or demonic Fire Giants are one of the factions active in Tethyamar or maybe more of a one-off group "sent away" by the orcish shamans? I suppose this could be either way. Makes a person wonder what kind of goblinoid numbers we're looking at in Tethyamar if we consider multiple factions and this army that wiped out a weakened drow city. Most likely a splinter of one of them factions. Unless it was a co-op activity between all the factions pooling resources for more territory, food, plunder etc.
With Myth Drannor restored, this would be a fun grand daddy of a dungeon to see some work on as a replacement adventure area. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 01:39:13
I would say that the number of dwarves wouldn't have been greater than 1,500 or so. While the goal of the Mithril Legion was to "reclaim Tethyamar", it was really only to probe the defences - a reconnaissance in force if you will. Access to the mines through one of the outer gates and the establishment of a solid seeming defensive perimeter saw them probe further and they ran afoul of a "yurshash" or trap portal in the orcish tongue and suffered the fate set out in LEoF. You see, Tethyamar remains one of the last bastions of powerful, cooperative orcish "circle" magic - with shamans able to craft heights of spellcraft not seen in humanoid ranks for centuries - and this has only been enhanced by the infusion of demonic blood brought on by the barghest influence. Tethyamar remains a tough nut to crack, but js reclaimable. Any would be conqueror would probably have to undertake some very careful preliminary activity to see various factions in the Mines played off against each other, and an elaborate diversion would probably be required to bleed off some of the main battle strength from the complex proper - if all those things fell into place, then an army might well reclaim the Mines if their timing was perfect and luck was in.
-- George Krashos
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| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 04 Oct 2013 : 06:46:35
oohh thanks! very much indeed!!
I red the aticle about the Shortsword, and there found the hint for the legion as you say.
But this sidebar also prooved to me what had always hoped to find:
The Old Hlundadim-originated Humanoids DO still have quite a mighty presence not only in the Stonelands through the Melial in Skull-Gorge but also in the Desertsmouth Mountains with the worghest-controlled remains of a part of the tribes back from the time of the battle of bones.
Edit: Forgot to ask, George, can you say anything about the approximate strength of the Mithril Legion in Numbers?
Yum Yum Yum. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Oct 2013 : 01:24:33
The Mithril Legion is my creation, first making an appearance in the write-up of the sword Sarghathuld in my original "Soargar's Legacy" article in Dragon #277.
Their fate was dealt with in the Mines of Tethyamar sidebar Eric Boyd and I put into LEoF (pgs.134-135).
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 23:42:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I kinda dimly recall something in Gold & Glory (I could very well be dead wrong, though... something about undead...)
I was thinking of the Moonlight Men... my bad...  |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 23:20:07
The Mithril Legion was wiped out in Tethyamar. They got dumped into the deep mines via an orc gate and fought their way back towards the surface, nobody made it out alive. I believe that's referenced in the Grand History of the Realms or maybe Lost Empires I honestly forget. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 15:44:14
Well, Tethyamar was originally conquered or at least beaten by the Hlundadim forces in 1104 DR ( GHoTR ) but afterwards the only evidence of something there was the mentioning and detailed description of the Zhent outpost in Champions of ruin 3e.
As of Zhents already there in 1364 I have found no canon information.
And I just found also in the GhoTR that the mithril legion was marching north east from TILVERTON and then vanished. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 14:57:35
Isnt this something to do with Zhentil Keep and they invaded Citadel of the Raven or something like that.
The dwarves used that distraction to seize control of the mines of Tethyamar.
Then at a later date another Zhentil Keep attack failed and the remnants of the army turned toward the mines of Tethyamar and killed everyone inside.
I may of course be mixing up many different stories so i apologise for talking rubbish if it turns out i am. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 14:49:02
According to the FR wiki king Ghelin perished in exile and was succeeded by his twins sons who are still working on reclaiming their homeland. So its looks like they were indeed defeated. It goes on to state that the Zhentarim now occupy one of the upper fortresses in cooperation with fiendish denizens of Tethyamar.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 12:16:24
I kinda dimly recall something in Gold & Glory (I could very well be dead wrong, though... something about undead...) |
