| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Yuukale |
Posted - 10 Sep 2013 : 18:45:56
Hello folks!
Something that always confused me was how Corellon has Magic in his portfolio.
To what extent can he influence magic if Mystra controls the Weave?
Magic of Faerun doesn't quite add much, except that he opposes the shadow weave and defends/promotes elven magic. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 16:37:23
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I also recall elves were part of the Weave, I believe 2nd Edition . *shrugs*
Or rather all magical creatures (fairies, dragons, etc). |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 02:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by Yuukale
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I also recall elves were part of the Weave, I believe 2nd Edition . *shrugs*
Would you remember or take an educated guess as to where would I find this info?
I'd say your best bet for a quote along those lines would be from a novel - Evermeet or Elminster TMOAM. This would be a statement by a character.
The closest thing to this in sourcebooks or supplements would be from the Cormanthor Arcane age books. |
| Yuukale |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 06:45:20
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I also recall elves were part of the Weave, I believe 2nd Edition . *shrugs*
Would you remember or take an educated guess as to where would I find this info? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 02:50:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
One of the oldest ideas behind elves (don't ask me what they've changed this into in recent editions) is that they are inherently magical by nature. In old D&D the elf race/class was basically a fighter mage. In the Forgotten Realms, elves have an more intimate relationship with magic than do other races. I think the best description of the weave is from Making Of A Mage when Elminster is taught how to finally cast a detect magic spell "correctly" and comes to the realization that the entire world is magic. Magic and the weave are the stuff of creation and life, and elves tend to live their lives at one with it and the world around them.
Mystra is the magic itself - she is the weave. The gods of magic in other campaigns are really the gods of magic-users. Be it Boccob or Wee Jas the three gods of magic from Dagonlance or whoever, they are like Azuth. Gods of spellcasters. Corellon fits this bill as well. He is the god of elven spellcasters and the elven method of using magic (there are also other elven gods of magic, btw).
This is a good way of putting it  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 23:48:32
I also recall elves were part of the Weave, I believe 2nd Edition . *shrugs* |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 23:27:50
One of the oldest ideas behind elves (don't ask me what they've changed this into in recent editions) is that they are inherently magical by nature. In old D&D the elf race/class was basically a fighter mage. In the Forgotten Realms, elves have an more intimate relationship with magic than do other races. I think the best description of the weave is from Making Of A Mage when Elminster is taught how to finally cast a detect magic spell "correctly" and comes to the realization that the entire world is magic. Magic and the weave are the stuff of creation and life, and elves tend to live their lives at one with it and the world around them.
Mystra is the magic itself - she is the weave. The gods of magic in other campaigns are really the gods of magic-users. Be it Boccob or Wee Jas the three gods of magic from Dagonlance or whoever, they are like Azuth. Gods of spellcasters. Corellon fits this bill as well. He is the god of elven spellcasters and the elven method of using magic (there are also other elven gods of magic, btw). |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 15 Sep 2013 : 23:15:13
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
There are many deities of magic, and there are also many forms of magic (rune magic, elvish magic, table magic, spellsong, etc.).
Does this mean that these forms of magic work in Dead-magic zones? |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 21:40:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - so Lolth named it the Weave? Interesting....
Now, in my own Homebrew musings, I have it where the seldarine were actually Archfey and S'Eladrin (Noble/Royal Eladrin)...
I love this idea!!! |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 18:00:39
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Yuukale
Yeah, I can see Corellon being the ruler of all magic in Faerie/Feywild.
In Faerun, perhaps he can only interfere with elven high magic (given that any other form of magic wouldn't fall on his purview)
Do you have any idea where did you read this quote? Was it in Evermeet (dang, that's about the only book on non-moonshae elves that I haven't read.
Its in Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunniungham. IIRC, its when the elves first arrived in Faerūn after the destruction of Tintageer.
Its Araushnee who notices this when she visits the world where she finds Malar to help her in her plan to take over the seldarine. Shortly after Malar too notices that the weave is strong there. But I am not 100% sure if the world they are on is Toril or another one.
I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be Toril. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 14:54:30
LOL - so Lolth named it the Weave? Interesting....
As for the connections between the Fey and the elves, most of that is in the GhotR now. Fey were a Creator Race, then they left for Faerie (and its unknown if it was already there, or they created it at that point), and then (much later)the Fey send Elves to Toril to battle dragons (which I always found odd, but someone must have had ideas in that regard). We know from Elaine's novel that Tintageer was IN Faerie - the place where the Fey went. The blurbs in GHotR seem to intimate that the Fey somehow 'ruled' the Elves, which shows a relationship. The Fey are called a 'creator race' because of all the races that have been spawned by them (magically, evolution, cross-breeding, whatever). Nothing says the fey created the Elves, but everything points to that, on some level.
Now, in my own Homebrew musings, I have it where the seldarine were actually Archfey and S'Eladrin (Noble/Royal Eladrin), which explains the relationship between the Seldarine and Fey. As for the Elves, I believe they are the 'lessened' ('the dwindling') versions of Fey - those fey created after death came into the world (because death did not exist before the War of Light & Darkness, which lead to the 1st Sundering, which the Fey avoided when they left Toril). All fey born after the exodus would be Elves instead. El'ves means "loyal children", and El'adrin means "wayard children" (also part of my homebrew etymology musings). The El'Adrin left the Fey court and created their own holdings in Faerie (like Tintageer), and the El'ves stayed with the Fey... until sent out into the multiverse to stop the dragon epidemic (or wherever they were going with that storyline).
The separation of the fey from their cynosure (see Goodman Games The Complete Guide to the Fey - its basically their 'anchor') results in dwindling - a lessening of what they are. Thus, the Eladrin are stronger (especially planer Eladrin) because they have stayed closer to the source of their power (Faerie itself), but the Elves have dwelt on the mortal worlds longer, so are far less powerful (think less 'angelic', or 'saintly', whatever.)
Thus, Elves and Eladrin are the same thing, but at the same time, a bit different because of their histories (which blends ALL of the earlier lore with 4e lore... thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week... try the veal...)  |
| Quale |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 14:29:02
The Weave is information about how to harness natural forces and energies of Realmspace. It is sentient and it changes/evolves/reboots when it needs to. In the beginning, possibly when Mystra was Lurue, magic was rawer, and fey/elves could sense a bit more truth about the Weave. But now it appears infinitely more difficult. Other races that use magic have added their own information, from their unique perspectives. Mystra could be like the sharnstuff, made of all of them. Elven magic uses parts of the Weave, and other magical knowledge that is not the Weave (from outdated versions of the Weave, from arcane traditions that never were the Weave, and from other crystal spheres/planes). |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 12:28:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Yuukale
Yeah, I can see Corellon being the ruler of all magic in Faerie/Feywild.
In Faerun, perhaps he can only interfere with elven high magic (given that any other form of magic wouldn't fall on his purview)
Do you have any idea where did you read this quote? Was it in Evermeet (dang, that's about the only book on non-moonshae elves that I haven't read.
Its in Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunniungham. IIRC, its when the elves first arrived in Faerūn after the destruction of Tintageer.
Its Araushnee who notices this when she visits the world where she finds Malar to help her in her plan to take over the seldarine. Shortly after Malar too notices that the weave is strong there. But I am not 100% sure if the world they are on is Toril or another one. |
| Therise |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 01:05:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its in Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunniungham. IIRC, its when the elves first arrived in Faerūn after the destruction of Tintageer.
It is that novel, but technically it's the goddess Araushnee (aka Lolth) who first calls it the "Weave" and refers to it as strong. And as the goddess of weavers, how could she see magic in any other way?
I suspect that the elves generally probably thought of magic as a Weave, and this concept transferred to humans when the elves first taught them (i.e. the early Netherese) elvish magic. Elvish magic often relies on cooperative effort, pulling energy threads this way and that, and working in harmony to create a whole. To pull one thread too heavily can unravel a weaving, and the cooperative nature meant that spirit and life were an inherent component in casting. Where humans see power to use, elves see fey lines, patterns, swirling energy nodes, colors, holes, thin spots, and are concerned with consequences.
Compare this with what the Netherese evolved for their spells: Magic is seen as a "field" that can be tapped into, energy to be used until it's depleted (e.g. mythallar). For the Netherese, magic became about utilizing a resource, like stone or wood, with no real thought given to consequences or balance.
Then think about how magic must have changed down the centuries, with places like Myth Drannor where theories and beliefs about magic would blend and evolve. The spells used in contemporary Faerun are a result of mixed ideaologies and theories, and the users' intentions and goals. It's why mages like Elminster argue that magic is an Art, that it has moods and feelings, and that it's intimately tied to life and the multiverse on many levels.
But yeah, the concept of magic as a "Weave" may have been because of the elves, and Lolth's interest in using that power. 
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 00:58:56
Elves are supposed to be organically or naturally attuned to magic in ways that humans cannot fathom. I dont recall elves losing this intangible distinction, nor losing any of the racial abilities, during any of the weave-failure interregna.
Drow possess natural magics as well, once gifted by Lolth (or by somebody; although not Corellon or Mystra) which never eemed to have suffered from absent/malfunctioning Weave ... not in the Realms, not in any other world. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 00:00:22
It isn't hard to imagine an Elf God being a God OF Magic...as in he is made of magic.
I would hazard a guess that ol' pointy ears is just as much a part of magic as Mystra is...but being Multi-Spheric makes him less concretely connected to the Magic of Faerun. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 23:40:03
In second and third edition at least, divine portfolio's were limited but only within a single pantheon. Mystra in addition to being the Weave (the skin over the field of magical energy permeating Toril) is the God of Magic in the Faerunian Pantheon. Correllon on the other hand is the God of Magic in the Elven Pantheon. This limitation on portfolio ownership allowed fine distinctions. So the Elemental Gods could hold dominion over their specific elemental magics. There can be gods of particular schools. And so on. In a sense, the Seldarine are generally all considered to be gods of magic, but just Correllon is the God of Magic in a general sense. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 22:21:13
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Well, if the Seldarine don't behave following Mystra's rules she may threaten to kick them out of using magic within Realmspace.
Than Corellon will calmly remind her that while she died 3 times and all her servant deities (Savras, Azuth and Velsharoon) are gone, he has taken an eye off of Gruumsh and kicked Lolth underground, Labelas Enoreth has battled and won against Clangeddin and at this point Mystra will probably fake an emergency call from her Chosens and disappear.
Jokes aside, in theory anyone and anything in Realmspace has to abide Mystra's Laws regarding any type of magic (unless she's dead ... again).
 I can't help but be amused by this |
| Yuukale |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 18:31:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Yuukale
Is it possible that the term "weave" was used as an incorrect substitute for "magic energy" ?
Yes, its entirely possible - Elaine may have just been using an in-setting term (somewhat incorrectly). There is at at least one other terminology error (due to the differences between FR's elves and core), and there is also a MAJOR continuity snafu as well.
Anyhow, I think the term 'The Weave' is FR-specific (I don't think Ed even called it that - he described it as a 'web of magical energy' that the TSR guys ran with), and it is just the local portion of a greater (planer) magical web - sort of like one of those 'fundamental forces of the universe'. If we take this one step further (and blend the RW occurrence of the term with the lore), we could say that thats what the Elves called magical energy, and after 37K+ years, thats what everyone else on Toril calls it now too.
Thus, 'The Weave' could be a Faerie term, and Mystra controls the local (Realmspace) portion of it, which is just a single 'web' within the greater 'Weave'. Her giving divine sentience to the Realms magical web leads to it being more powerful, through worship and other things. The Sarrukh (who predated the Elves by quite a bit) referred to magical lore as 'scales of the world serpent', which also indicates the 'The Weave' may have been a fey/Elven concept (since every ancient/creator race would have their own term for that energy).
And since the theory is that the Fey originated on Toril (as a creator race), and they created the Elves (who later returned to Toril), it really all comes full circle, and it could be that 'The Weave' has always bean Toril's Weave, which got extended into Faerie by the Fey. In fact, Faerie may be a physical manifestation of The Weave itself (thus the Fey fled into The Weave, and created their world whole-cloth).
That makes perfect sense in regards to the quote - Faerie/The Feywild now bleeds into almost every plane/sphere, but it would be strongest where it originated from. Its 'roots' would be there.
Markus, that's a quite interesting theory, but I do have some doubts regarding it:
What are the evidences for the elves being created by the fey in Toril? Didn't they all come with Durothil and Sharlario? (Though I didn't find evidence that the Sylvan Elves (Sy'tel'quess) were with the Sun and Moon escaping from Tintageer)
Besides, when you say "the fey created the elves", do you mean the Seldarine?
Edit:
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well as far is it goes, the Weave is not the source of all magic of the Realms, it is just the easiest to tap into.
In some ways, editions what is Eleven magic has changed.
And yet in RotA, it was mentioned and showed pretty clearly that, after the war, the High Mages of Evareska drew magic from the Weave to repair their broken mythal, with the exception of Galaeron, who drew from the SW instead.
Araevin Teshurr himself in the Last Mythal uses the Weave to tamper with the Drannan mythal. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 18:06:17
Well, if the Seldarine don't behave following Mystra's rules she may threaten to kick them out of using magic within Realmspace.
Than Corellon will calmly remind her that while she died 3 times and all her servant deities (Savras, Azuth and Velsharoon) are gone, he has taken an eye off of Gruumsh and kicked Lolth underground, Labelas Enoreth has battled and won against Clangeddin and at this point Mystra will probably fake an emergency call from her Chosens and disappear.
Jokes aside, in theory anyone and anything in Realmspace has to abide Mystra's Laws regarding any type of magic (unless she's dead ... again). |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 17:05:04
After reading Dragon #251 where the minor elven FR gods of magic (Mythrien Sarath, Sarula Iliene, etc) that aren't mentioned anywhere else are described, I decided that elven magic in my campaign would be slightly different from the 'standard' magic everyone is always going on about.
Mythals, water magic, time travel and the magic that's used by the fey or emulates it is counted as elf magic in my book. Though it uses the Weave to fuel it, it is regulated by the Seldarine magic deities who are all ultimately answerable to Corellon. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 16:59:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well as far is it goes, the Weave is not the source of all magic of the Realms, it is just the easiest to tap into.
In some ways, editions what is Eleven magic has changed.
And yet in RotA, it was mentioned and showed pretty clearly that, after the war, the High Mages of Evareska drew magic from the Weave to repair their broken mythal, with the exception of Galaeron, who drew from the SW instead. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 16:53:52
Well as far is it goes, the Weave is not the source of all magic of the Realms, it is just the easiest to tap into.
In some ways, editions what is Eleven magic has changed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 14:24:52
Ed said Mystra is the Weave. So where does Corellon fit in? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 14:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Yuukale
Yeah, I can see Corellon being the ruler of all magic in Faerie/Feywild.
In Faerun, perhaps he can only interfere with elven high magic (given that any other form of magic wouldn't fall on his purview)
Do you have any idea where did you read this quote? Was it in Evermeet (dang, that's about the only book on non-moonshae elves that I haven't read.
Its in Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunniungham. IIRC, its when the elves first arrived in Faerūn after the destruction of Tintageer.
quote:
Originally posted by Yuukale
Is it possible that the term "weave" was used as an incorrect substitute for "magic energy" ?
Yes, its entirely possible - Elaine may have just been using an in-setting term (somewhat incorrectly). There is at at least one other terminology error (due to the differences between FR's elves and core), and there is also a MAJOR continuity snafu as well.
Anyhow, I think the term 'The Weave' is FR-specific (I don't think Ed even called it that - he described it as a 'web of magical energy' that the TSR guys ran with), and it is just the local portion of a greater (planer) magical web - sort of like one of those 'fundamental forces of the universe'. If we take this one step further (and blend the RW occurrence of the term with the lore), we could say that thats what the Elves called magical energy, and after 37K+ years, thats what everyone else on Toril calls it now too.
Thus, 'The Weave' could be a Faerie term, and Mystra controls the local (Realmspace) portion of it, which is just a single 'web' within the greater 'Weave'. Her giving divine sentience to the Realms magical web leads to it being more powerful, through worship and other things. The Sarrukh (who predated the Elves by quite a bit) referred to magical lore as 'scales of the world serpent', which also indicates the 'The Weave' may have been a fey/Elven concept (since every ancient/creator race would have their own term for that energy).
And since the theory is that the Fey originated on Toril (as a creator race), and they created the Elves (who later returned to Toril), it really all comes full circle, and it could be that 'The Weave' has always bean Toril's Weave, which got extended into Faerie by the Fey. In fact, Faerie may be a physical manifestation of The Weave itself (thus the Fey fled into The Weave, and created their world whole-cloth).
That makes perfect sense in regards to the quote - Faerie/The Feywild now bleeds into almost every plane/sphere, but it would be strongest where it originated from. Its 'roots' would be there. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 12:02:43
I know some folk will say what I'm about to say is heresy, but frankly it makes more sense than what's been published. Most of the gods can lay claim to SOME kind of magic sub-section. Sune - love magic, Deneir- symbol magic, Kossuth - fire magic, Talos - destructive magic, etc..... This idea that certain gods have ABSOLUTE control over their portfolio needs to be gotten rid of. The idea that there can't be multiple gods of magic, possibly even with duplicated portfolios, should be left in the dirt. Kossuth may be the great god of fire, but shouldn't Talos be a "fire god" as well. It doesn't hurt a thing and it gets rid of a lot of arguments. The only thing it hurts is the deux ex machina novel plot lines where "Waukeen was upset that her coffee was cold, so she stopped all mercantile traffic from occurring.... all beings of Toril forgot how to bargain with one another". |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 05:52:55
I also vaguely recall that elves had a slightly different relationship to the Weave than Humans. Something to the effect that when elves draw power from the Weave to create some magical effect that was more akin to harnessing the power from the various threads of magic around them. Whereas Human access was far more abrupt, more akin to yanking the power from the various threads of magic.
I also seem to recall something about the elven revelry somehow being connected to the Weave. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 05:35:12
That's a good point, Ayrik, though I wasn't aware Corellon's dominion of magic was dependent on Mystra in 4E, or that he was affected by the Spellplague affected him at all. Well, okay, all the gods were affected by the Spellplague to a point. I guess one could say magic just went haywire in general during the Spellplague, but things like elemenatl or druidic magic didn't seem affected, but perhaps that is because they are drawn more from the earth than the Weave.
The "science", if you will, of magic in the Realms is not my area of expertise. I've always thought of High Elven Magic as different from "general" magic, whether or not it is separate from the Weave. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 04:34:46
The way I understand it, elven High Magic is a magical system entirely separate from Mystra's Weave. Permanent constructs made with High Magic - such as elven mythals and moonblades - continue to function and seem generally unaffected by Weave-failures. Perhaps these things are Seldarine magic outside of the Weave, or perhaps they are sustained by Corellon regardless of Mystra's (in)competence.
Corellon might need to be invoked by elves when attempting to cast 10th level and various unique spells, where a human would invoke Mystra. Indeed, any invocation of Mystra's/Azuth's name might instead invoke Corellon whenever elven mages and magics are involved. Remember that Corellon draws much power from the Feywild, which intersects every world where fey may be found.
[Edit]
Prior to D&D 4E, Mystra really only governed magic in the Realms, Toril and the other worlds of Realmspace. Perhaps, if one is open-minded, also our own world of Earth. While Corellon governed the magic of elves spanning every world of the D&D cosmos where elves (or elven spells and items) could be found, making him perhaps less influential over magic in the Realms but overwhelmingly more powerful in overall stature.
D&D 4E is based on the premise that Mystra governed magic on every world and Mystra's Weave somehow failed on all of them simultaneously. In this system, Corellon's dominion over magic appears dependant upon Mystra's Weave, and thus the dominoes fall. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 03:41:12
It's been so long since I've read Evermeet, so there is a lot I've forgotten, but it is a great book!
Anyway, building off what others have said. I've always thought Mystra as the goddess of "general" magic. She governs the Weave, but as Markustay said, she doesn't control the Shadow Weave. I don't think High Elven Magic is drawn from a different Weave, per se, but it is still a different variation of magic, probably only the kind the fey can tap into, based on their own ties to it. I seem to remember a young Elminster commenting to an elf that they don't worship Mystra as their goddess of magic, and the reply was that they have their own gods (thus Corellon). Being a magical race, (the last line in Evermeet is "where there is magic, there will always be elves"), it stands to reason their patron god has magic under his portfolio. Racial pantheons are going to share portfolios with each other.
It is highly unlikely Corellon and Mystra would ever be at odds with each other, but if Mystra did "shut down" the Weave, Elven High Magic might be somewhat affected, but not to the point where elves couldn't draw on it. For instance, I don't think it was affected by the Spellplague, at least not that I know of.
|
| Yuukale |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 00:35:23
Yeah, I can see Corellon being the ruler of all magic in Faerie/Feywild.
In Faerun, perhaps he can only interfere with elven high magic (given that any other form of magic wouldn't fall on his purview)
Do you have any idea where did you read this quote? Was it in Evermeet (dang, that's about the only book on non-moonshae elves that I haven't read :/)
Is it possible that the term "weave" was used as an incorrect substitute for "magic energy" ?
I can't help but think if both things came to a disagreement between these gods (likely possible, but a thought exercise nonetheless), would Mystra be able to shut down all magic but Elven High Magic ? |
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