| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 02:06:13
I'd put an idea into the Ask Ed, but I thought it would be an interesting thing to discuss amongst ourselves. Basically, I'd like to hear some ideas for how to document what pantheons either currently or used to exist in the realms. I'd also like to hear some thoughts on what would be "good info to track" within a given pantheon. Finally, if people wanted to take some stabs at naming off some "pantheon information" for a given pantheon, it took could be useful. The idea I'm heading for isn't "let's make a finalized list of each pantheon in each time period", but more "hey, what DO we know... and what CAN we hypothesize... and what is actually canon to a degree?" What I believe is that before the Faerunian pantheon became so huge and there were numerous pantheons, the gods had more portfolios upon which to model themselves.
For instance, here's some descriptors I can think of
Pantheon Name
Is Pantheon canon or assumed based on other information?
If Pantheon is canon are there any specific deities noted as being in it?
If there are specific deities, what are/were their main/known portfolios and names?
When did the pantheon exist (roughly)?
Where did the pantheon's main region of control cover?
Just some ideas of the "pantheons" that come to mind are listed below. Note, some of the names I'm coming up with may be wrong and there may actually be a name out there for that pantheon. I'm just kind of trying to get the idea enough out there that we could develop on it. Some of the pantheons I list might have been one pantheon (example Jaamdath and Calishite). You won't hurt my feelings giving some opposing view.
The Netherese Pantheon - canon
The Rus Pantheon - non-canon. They seems to be Viking-like and therefore could have held some Norse or Finnish deities. Might have also included some giant deities as "enemies".
The Raumviran Pantheon - non-canon - possibly included lots of elemental deities / primal spirits. Might have also included the Yuir Pantheon.
The Narfellian Pantheon - canon to a degree - definitely demon worshippers
The Talfir Pantheon - non-canon (Tempus possibly came from here)
The Calishite Pantheon - non-canon (Bhaelros was from here)
The Jaamdathi Pantheon - non-canon, definitely included the psionic deity Auppenser
The Uthgardt Pantheon - beast cults
The Imaskari "Pantheon" - basically devil cults
The Bedine Pantheon - canon (includes At'ar the merciless and Kozah)
The Zakharan/Land of Fate Pantheon
The "Isle of the Necromancer Kings" Pantheon-
The Geomancers Pantheon (basically Kossuth, but possibly other deities)
The Kara-Tur Pantheon
The Maztica Pantheon
The Untheric Pantheon
The Mulhorandi Pantheon
The dwarven Pantheon
The Yuir Pantheon - primal spirits
The Seldarine
The Giant pantheon
The Orc pantheon
The Halfling pantheon
The gnome pantheon
The Courts of the Fey pantheon
the "goblinoid" pantheon
the dragon pantheon
the serpent pantheon |
| 2 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 03:30:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A Rus pantheon might have been similar to the modern Faerunian one. I think many of our FR deities originated in The Taan (Hordelands) region, and that they have since merged with the early Western (primitive shamanistic/animistic) mythos.
I've felt for quite some time that our Finnish deities came from a lost Raumvari civilization (Pre-Raumanther, maybe the Gur, who I feel are the descendents of thefolk of Kalevala*). I also feel that the pre-Netherese (Seventon) pantheon was this same Finnish Pantheon (with some cross-cultural adds as they migrated west).
I've worked it out (in my homebrew stuff) that this FR Finnish pantheon was quite strong in early Netheril, but as the Netherese expanded their pantheon changed, and became mixed with that of the Talfir people (which was itself a mix of Celtic, Nature, and Fey/Elven powers). This happened around the time that Netheril absorbed Thaeravel (who should have been a Talfiric people). At some point, the upper crust of the Netherese ('High Netheril') would have developed the canon Netherese Pantheon we know, and the 'Low Netherese' would kept to their earlier, cultural pantheons.
So, I have it where our Frinnish (not a misspelling  ) pantheon came from a very early human culture that developed around the Great Ice Sea (Yal Tanri), and that the Talfir people worshiped a druid-based nature pantheon of archfey and Celtic deities (who I feel may be all one and the same anyway). Nethereil is where these two major pantheons met, and our modern Faerunian Pantheon was born (which is also still constantly evolving).
As for The Norse - I think we have more of them then we realize, but most of them go by Planer/generic names, and NOT the earth-names (aspects) we are most familiar with. It appears only Tyr kept a common name. For instance, I think Odin is actually and aspect of Woten, who is also Annam, The All-Father (and also the Dwarven 'High God'). I've toyed with the idea of him also being Gruumsh/Talos, but it works better to keep them separate (for now). Thus, most of the early Norse pantheon were Giantish deities, and others were added over time from other pantheons (mostly the Fey/Elven one, but also a few ascended 'hero-deities').
I do not think of the known pantheons as 'Earth Pantheons', I think of the Earth pantheons as the local 'cliques' of deities here on Earth (at least, in the past). I think all full deities (not demi-powers) are Planer beings, and are not really world-specific, just their names tend to be. That eliminates a lot of the mess we get with 'Interloping'.
*For instance, I think Kalevala and Pohjola were cities in the (truly) ancient Gur culture, and not at all of Earth. Those Finnish Myths we hear are really based on Torilian history that has come to us by way of interloping - in other words, the Finnish Pantheon is actually a Faerunian Pantheon that could have migrated the OTHER way. In fact, I believe that all myths are based on events that happened on some world, and they become part of the greater mythology surrounding each god, all of whom go by different names on different worlds. This is why we have so many different versions of the same myths - the stories are altered as they move from world to world (through the priesthoods of these gods).
My Earliest pantheons are the Frinnish (The Finnish), the Tal-Celitc (all primal & nature gods, including archfey), The Devic (a very early pantheon combining the Hindu/Vedic gods, the Sumer-Babylonian deities, and various Middle-eastern myths), and the Pharaonic, which may have actually been the very first truly human pantheon (despite the fact that the deities are not all human-appearing). These would not be the pantheons we recognize today, but ancient (hundreds of thousands of years) proto-versions of them. Add to these the Draconic and the Giantish pantheons, and the Cthonic (the earliest 'pantheon', and not a true pantheon at all - these would be the 'Lovecraftian Horrors', or 'Elder Evils'). The Olympians (Greek/Roman/Mediterranean powers) would not have evolved until after the 'War of the Gods', and while some are aspects of these early powers, most are ascended mortals. That may be the only pantheon (amongst the major ones) that actually evolved on Earth (and interloped).
I think that "In the Beginning..." there was a war of the gods, and that this took place on the True (first) World, which was then shattered into the many Crystal Spheres we have now. There were several 'sides', and these are what became the first pantheons. Before the war, there was just 'the gods', and pantheons would not have existed. All of the powers that existed at this incredibly early time would have had distinct relationships with other individual powers, be it dislike, friendship, or just ambivalence. The pantheons were later built off of these relationships. It was at this time that the Heavens and Hells would have also formed.
So, 'In the beginning', there were NO pantheons, just gods. The first pantheons formed from the sides in the war, and later these evolved on each individual world as ascended human powers were added, and relationships changed (and religions formed around these relationships).
Yeah, where I was trying to go here was maybe figure out where certain deities were at certain times. For instance, I don't think all the gods just had like one or two portfolios... I think they had a lot, but the combining of the Faerunian pantheon forced them into more stringent focuses so that all could live.
So, of what you added, I too get the feeling that the Talfir may have held the "Celtic" & Finnish Pantheon and that may be where we got Silvanus, Oghma, Miellikki, Kiputytto (who is absorbed by Talona later), Loviatar, and it may have held other Finnish deities as well (these would be the absorbed deities). I'm not sure if I'd place Nobanion amongst these deities or not (he may have migrated).
The Rus may have held the "Norse Pantheon" and maybe we got Tyr and Heimdall/Helm (I believe Helm's name is just a corruption over time...let's face it Helm held the celestial stairway/rainbow/bifrost bridge against entry by the other gods) from them, and I've mentioned in the past I'm favored of the Thor/Odin combined as dark Talos. It would definitely fit that Surtur and Thrym came from them as well, as well as possibly other giant gods.
I agree that where Raumathar rose would have been a great place for a nature/elemental/fey pantheon. We've got some deity names, so in order to stick with canon, I'd say keep them and assume their roles were usurped (i.e. Bhalla gave her portfolios to Miellikki, Khelliara gave hers to Chauntea, and the Hidden One gave hers to Mystra). I'd also believe that the worship of the elemental lords was prominent in this area (Kossuth, Grumbar, Akadi, and Istishia). Its also my belief that these pre-Raumathar peoples also worshipped the Yuir deities based on this from demi-human deities.
"In centuries past, before the Cha-Tel'Quessir (halfgreen
elves of the Yuirwood) appeared in Aglarond, the Sy-
Tel'Quessir of the Yuirwood adopted and co-opted ancient powers
previously venerated by primitive humans who had preceded
even the elven settlement of the forest. Little remains to
mark the worship of these ancient powers, although their legends
are still retold in the oral tradition of the Cha-Tel'Quessir.At the heart of the Yuirwood is the Sunglade, dominated by two
concentric rings of stone menhirs. While each stone of the outer
ring bears an inscription to a different member of the Seldarine,
each stone of the inner ring is inscribed with the symbol of one
of the gods of the Yuir. Of those ten stones, only four symbols
are still legible: Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Magnar the
Bear, Elikarashae, and Zandilar the Dancer. A fifth menhir is
believed to have once held the sign of the Simbul, the goddess
of the edge and the moment of choice, from whom Alassra
Shentrantra's common appellation is derived."
The 5 known Yuir deities were absorbed as follows (Zandilar the Dancer <became Sharess/Bast>, Relkath of the Infinite Branches <absorbed by Rillifane>, Magnar the Bear <absorbed by Rillifane>, Elikarashae <absorbed by Shevarash>, The Simbul <absorbed by Labelas>) as well may have been part of this "pantheon". If the other "Yuir" deities were Bhalla, Khelliara, and "the Hidden One" and possibly two others, it would make sense.... but they could just as easily have been other Archfey like Aurilandur that became Auril or the Seelie Court.
For what I'm labeling the "Calishite" Pantheon for now, I know of only two gods Anachtyr <either an alias or absorbed by Tyr> and Bhaelros <assumed to be absorbed by Talos since the name is totally different>. Similar for Jaamdath, I can only definitely name Auppenser.
I suspect that Gargauth got involved with the Imaskari, since they were making deals with devils. At some point, I'm betting they were involved SOMEHOW in imprisoning him in the pit from which he was later released.
I'd even list another pantheon that I'd call the "High Forest Pantheon" and throw in Shiallia and Lurue and Khalreshaar (the name by which the elves know Mielikki on Evermeet and is rumored to have been a human druid raised up for defending woodlands) and possibly the spirits that Rillifane picked up (Bear, Wolf, Eagle, and Raven). I'd also, just for kicks throw in the demi-goddess Fionghualla (the swanmay goddess who was a mortal and raised up for defending the sylvan lands from the Queen of Air & Darkness). The Seelie Court fits this area well, so select members of it may have influenced this area until the Seldarine came in.
I can say that Halruaa is definitely where Savras came about, and I suspect that Leira was a goddess local to Halruaa that possibly came into conflict with Shar around the time the Netherese fled south. The fleeing of the Leirans to Nimbral was probably a mass attempt by Leira to resist being absorbed by Shar. However, what happened to the other deities of "Halruaa"? Did they nudge their way into the Faerunian pantheon, and if so, which deities in the Faerunian Pantheon would seem to fit this area?
Of the other Faerunian deities, we kind of know when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul came about.... we know where Cyric & Kelemvor & Midnight/Mystra came about.. we got an idea of Ubtao as a primordial... we know Azuth & Finder & Red Knight & Velsharoon came directly to the Faerunian Pantheon...
This leaves the following as up in the air for "where" they started (at least by the research I've seen so far) before joining into the Faerunian Pantheon. Some of these people may be able to name from previous research, which is why I list them. Its actually a kind of short list and wouldn't take too much to hypothesize through some of it by putting deities with similar "feels" together. For instance, to me, Lathander, Sune, Tempus, Deneir, and Gond all seem somewhat similar in "persona" a bit and maybe were something like a pantheon together.
Lathander
Sune
Talos (by that name, we know he absorbs Bhaelros of Calishite and Kozah of Netheril)
Tempus (by that name)
Auril / Aurilandur
Beshaba/Tymora (assuming they were interlopers that took over when Tyche died... possibly from different pantheons since Tymora favors halflings)
Bahamut
Gond
Chauntea (who would absorb Jannath from Netheril and lots of other deities, but where is Chauntea herself first named)
Ilmater
Mask
Tiamat (we know that by this name, she was with the Untherics)
Umberlee
Waukeen
Deneir
Eldath
Lliira
Shaundakul
Talona (we know she absorbs Kipu-whatever from the Finnish pantheon)
Garagos (by that name, I forget did he absorb Targus of Netheril?)
Gwaeron Windstrom
Hoar (we know he's also known as Assuran of the three thunders, which was a Untheric deity... and I assume that the Untheric deity won)
Nobanion
Ulutiu
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Jun 2013 : 15:08:57
A Rus pantheon might have been similar to the modern Faerunian one. I think many of our FR deities originated in The Taan (Hordelands) region, and that they have since merged with the early Western (primitive shamanistic/animistic) mythos.
I've felt for quite some time that our Finnish deities came from a lost Raumvari civilization (Pre-Raumanther, maybe the Gur, who I feel are the descendents of thefolk of Kalevala*). I also feel that the pre-Netherese (Seventon) pantheon was this same Finnish Pantheon (with some cross-cultural adds as they migrated west).
I've worked it out (in my homebrew stuff) that this FR Finnish pantheon was quite strong in early Netheril, but as the Netherese expanded their pantheon changed, and became mixed with that of the Talfir people (which was itself a mix of Celtic, Nature, and Fey/Elven powers). This happened around the time that Netheril absorbed Thaeravel (who should have been a Talfiric people). At some point, the upper crust of the Netherese ('High Netheril') would have developed the canon Netherese Pantheon we know, and the 'Low Netherese' would kept to their earlier, cultural pantheons.
So, I have it where our Frinnish (not a misspelling ) pantheon came from a very early human culture that developed around the Great Ice Sea (Yal Tanri), and that the Talfir people worshiped a druid-based nature pantheon of archfey and Celtic deities (who I feel may be all one and the same anyway). Nethereil is where these two major pantheons met, and our modern Faerunian Pantheon was born (which is also still constantly evolving).
As for The Norse - I think we have more of them then we realize, but most of them go by Planer/generic names, and NOT the earth-names (aspects) we are most familiar with. It appears only Tyr kept a common name. For instance, I think Odin is actually and aspect of Woten, who is also Annam, The All-Father (and also the Dwarven 'High God'). I've toyed with the idea of him also being Gruumsh/Talos, but it works better to keep them separate (for now). Thus, most of the early Norse pantheon were Giantish deities, and others were added over time from other pantheons (mostly the Fey/Elven one, but also a few ascended 'hero-deities').
I do not think of the known pantheons as 'Earth Pantheons', I think of the Earth pantheons as the local 'cliques' of deities here on Earth (at least, in the past). I think all full deities (not demi-powers) are Planer beings, and are not really world-specific, just their names tend to be. That eliminates a lot of the mess we get with 'Interloping'.
*For instance, I think Kalevala and Pohjola were cities in the (truly) ancient Gur culture, and not at all of Earth. Those Finnish Myths we hear are really based on Torilian history that has come to us by way of interloping - in other words, the Finnish Pantheon is actually a Faerunian Pantheon that could have migrated the OTHER way. In fact, I believe that all myths are based on events that happened on some world, and they become part of the greater mythology surrounding each god, all of whom go by different names on different worlds. This is why we have so many different versions of the same myths - the stories are altered as they move from world to world (through the priesthoods of these gods).
My Earliest pantheons are the Frinnish (The Finnish), the Tal-Celitc (all primal & nature gods, including archfey), The Devic (a very early pantheon combining the Hindu/Vedic gods, the Sumer-Babylonian deities, and various Middle-eastern myths), and the Pharaonic, which may have actually been the very first truly human pantheon (despite the fact that the deities are not all human-appearing). These would not be the pantheons we recognize today, but ancient (hundreds of thousands of years) proto-versions of them. Add to these the Draconic and the Giantish pantheons, and the Cthonic (the earliest 'pantheon', and not a true pantheon at all - these would be the 'Lovecraftian Horrors', or 'Elder Evils'). The Olympians (Greek/Roman/Mediterranean powers) would not have evolved until after the 'War of the Gods', and while some are aspects of these early powers, most are ascended mortals. That may be the only pantheon (amongst the major ones) that actually evolved on Earth (and interloped).
I think that "In the Beginning..." there was a war of the gods, and that this took place on the True (first) World, which was then shattered into the many Crystal Spheres we have now. There were several 'sides', and these are what became the first pantheons. Before the war, there was just 'the gods', and pantheons would not have existed. All of the powers that existed at this incredibly early time would have had distinct relationships with other individual powers, be it dislike, friendship, or just ambivalence. The pantheons were later built off of these relationships. It was at this time that the Heavens and Hells would have also formed.
So, 'In the beginning', there were NO pantheons, just gods. The first pantheons formed from the sides in the war, and later these evolved on each individual world as ascended human powers were added, and relationships changed (and religions formed around these relationships). |
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