| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ze |
Posted - 08 May 2013 : 15:47:16
Hello,
I have put down a small piece of lore, sowing together several canon and close-to-canon  sources, and using my own thread (forgive the awful metaphor).
Do you think it works? Would you help me correct mistakes and finish the language?
Thanks for your feedback!
Ze
In the Year of the Dragon (1352 DR), Hendar (later to be known as the Scarred)* fled south of Waterdeep, where he fell in with the Dragon Cult cell based in the Rat Hills outside of Waterdeep, where the male adult black dragon Nabalnyth was recruiting Cultists to serve him.**
Unbeknownst to most, Nabalnyth happened to be the daughter of the Water King - the Dragon Magister Constulgrael***. During his late years as a Magister, hunted by a number of Red Wizards, the Water King happened to use Nabalnyth’s lair as one of his emergency hideouts. For this reason, he used to keep one of his spellbooks in his daughter’s lair.
When the tired Water King was finally reached by Meldryn Jalenslfer, he was glad to surrender***, but he saw no reason to endanger his daughter, who thus inherited the book as a legacy by his parent. Nabalnyth never knew that her draconic father was slain by a member of the Cult of the Dragon, and her later involvement in the Cult can be regarded as a sign of Azuth’s sharp irony.
When Jalanvaloss, the “Wyrm of Many Spells”, destroyed Nabalnyth and most of the Dragon Cultists*, Hendar escaped with only his life and the scar that now marks his cheek. Hendar is probably one of the few to know the location of Nabalnyth’s lair and of her hidden hoard.
The current magister Talatha Vaerovree of Innarilth, looking for Constulgrael’s missing spellbook, managed to find out his connection with Nabalnyth. So now she knows that a powerful Magisterial spellbook is hidden in the Rat Hills near Waterdeep***. In Hammer of the Year of the Unstrung Harp, however, she did not find the time yet to explore the Rat Hills.
* Eric L Boyd http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3803&whichpage=36
** Dragons of Faerun
*** described in The Secrets of the Magister
Edit: corrected the "current" year from 1370 to 1371, as Talatha becomes Magister only in late 1370 DR.
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 20:01:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Except that that would would mean that the cataclysm of Krynn now puts that world out of (temporal) reach, and that in-setting (The FR setting), Ed Greenwood should be dead, and can no longer talk to Elminster (because FR is now a 100 years or so into our future). In fact, come to think of it, Earth-time canonically ran at a different rate then FR setting time (I forget the exact ration - something like 1 of our years = 3 Toril years). If that is the correct formula, then WotC can't possibly produce any 'new' FR material for at least 33 years.* 
How long was the cataclysm, BTW? If it was only a century, then we (FR) probably 'caught up', as it were.
And from what I understand, absolutely no time passed on Krynn while Soth was in RL... and it may not have even been the same Soth. That means that not only can Ravenloft reach through time, it can also reach into 'alternate timelines' (in order to obtain these 'duplicates' it apparently finds). Either that, or Ravenloft doesn't 'steal' anything - it merely makes copies (but there is enough lore to the contrary for that to be highly improbable).
*On the other hand, if we figure this formula to be accurate, 35 years has passed since TSR first published The Realms... so 105 years could have gone by. If we take into account that the OGB may have been 'recent past', and the setting was actually 'current' as of 2e or so, that puts us pretty damn close to the current (4e) date.
At the time that information was published, it was accurate, per TSR. It was when 3E came out and the worlds were disconnected (a retcon!) that the time lines went astray.
So the last official information acknowledging a connection between the settings says that time happens on a 1:1 basis. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 17:45:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not a big fan of Dragonlance, but I know a little.
I used Lord Soth and his Realm as the intermediary. Faerûnians have gone to Ravenloft (and a few have returned), and Soth had a Realm there for a time. It is feasible that certain FR personages traveled through Sithicus (Soth's realm in RL) and learned about the process.
There was aRed Wizard that would have been especially good for this scenario. I forget his name.
Hazlik ruled Hazlan. Soth ruled his own realm of Sithicus. However, Sithicus didn't form until at least after 357 AC in Krynn's timeline. Therefore, the timeline could be pretty tight here if somoene tries to stay close to lore (granted as far as I know, we don't know when it was that Jalanvaloss killed Nabalnyth). In my view, it'd simply be easier to believe that a mage who was involved fled the world whenever the War of the Lance went bad. Maybe they went to planescape's Sigil. Maybe they spelljammed their way. Said mage MAY have made their way to Toril.... or they could have been killed off by a Cult of the Dragon member (or someone else). In fact, it'd be kind of interesting if he/she was killed off and some Sigilian/Spelljammer looked over the ritual in the book and said "hmmm, those Dragon Cultists on Toril might give good money for this".
There was another Red Wizard - one without his own Realm.
And time flows differently from world to world, and realm to realm, and folks traveling in and out of Ravenloft (no small feat) may not arrive in the same time period they left in.*
Anyhow, it was just an idea. There is also a portal in Anauroch (thats canon - check the supplement about that region) that leads from Krynn - although whether it is a two-way portal is open to debate. Of course, for the scenario we are trying to achieve, that doesn't really matter. ANYTHING from Krynn could have entered from that area.
*EDIT:
That part just gave me an idea, although off-topic. What if not every place that disappeared from Toril (during the Spellplague) went to Abeir? What if at least one place went to Ravenloft? What if that place comes back from there, rather then Abeir? How different would those people be?
It could be an easy way to un-Egypt Mulhorand quite a bit, and give it more of that 'Stygian' flavor.
Ah, good info, and yep it works conveniently because it doesn't state where the opening is on Krynn, plus its kind of close to Waterdeep (by kind of, I mean, its not as far as say Thesk or Calimshan).
From FR13- Anauroch - "There are even rumors that a magical gate has been opened somewhere in the northern Sword, linking Faerun with the world of Krynn:" |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 14:47:29
Except that that would would mean that the cataclysm of Krynn now puts that world out of (temporal) reach, and that in-setting (The FR setting), Ed Greenwood should be dead, and can no longer talk to Elminster (because FR is now a 100 years or so into our future). In fact, come to think of it, Earth-time canonically ran at a different rate then FR setting time (I forget the exact ration - something like 1 of our years = 3 Toril years). If that is the correct formula, then WotC can't possibly produce any 'new' FR material for at least 33 years.*
How long was the cataclysm, BTW? If it was only a century, then we (FR) probably 'caught up', as it were.
And from what I understand, absolutely no time passed on Krynn while Soth was in RL... and it may not have even been the same Soth. That means that not only can Ravenloft reach through time, it can also reach into 'alternate timelines' (in order to obtain these 'duplicates' it apparently finds). Either that, or Ravenloft doesn't 'steal' anything - it merely makes copies (but there is enough lore to the contrary for that to be highly improbable).
*On the other hand, if we figure this formula to be accurate, 35 years has passed since TSR first published The Realms... so 105 years could have gone by. If we take into account that the OGB may have been 'recent past', and the setting was actually 'current' as of 2e or so, that puts us pretty damn close to the current (4e) date. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 13:50:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And time flows differently from world to world, and realm to realm, and folks traveling in and out of Ravenloft (no small feat) may not arrive in the same time period they left in.*
Not in 2E, the last time all the settings were officially connected. The fact that TSR put out specific dates showing where the timelines matched up pretty much confirms that time is the same in all the settings. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 13:09:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not a big fan of Dragonlance, but I know a little.
I used Lord Soth and his Realm as the intermediary. Faerûnians have gone to Ravenloft (and a few have returned), and Soth had a Realm there for a time. It is feasible that certain FR personages traveled through Sithicus (Soth's realm in RL) and learned about the process.
There was aRed Wizard that would have been especially good for this scenario. I forget his name.
Hazlik ruled Hazlan. Soth ruled his own realm of Sithicus. However, Sithicus didn't form until at least after 357 AC in Krynn's timeline. Therefore, the timeline could be pretty tight here if somoene tries to stay close to lore (granted as far as I know, we don't know when it was that Jalanvaloss killed Nabalnyth). In my view, it'd simply be easier to believe that a mage who was involved fled the world whenever the War of the Lance went bad. Maybe they went to planescape's Sigil. Maybe they spelljammed their way. Said mage MAY have made their way to Toril.... or they could have been killed off by a Cult of the Dragon member (or someone else). In fact, it'd be kind of interesting if he/she was killed off and some Sigilian/Spelljammer looked over the ritual in the book and said "hmmm, those Dragon Cultists on Toril might give good money for this".
There was another Red Wizard - one without his own Realm.
And time flows differently from world to world, and realm to realm, and folks traveling in and out of Ravenloft (no small feat) may not arrive in the same time period they left in.*
Anyhow, it was just an idea. There is also a portal in Anauroch (thats canon - check the supplement about that region) that leads from Krynn - although whether it is a two-way portal is open to debate. Of course, for the scenario we are trying to achieve, that doesn't really matter. ANYTHING from Krynn could have entered from that area.
*EDIT:
That part just gave me an idea, although off-topic. What if not every place that disappeared from Toril (during the Spellplague) went to Abeir? What if at least one place went to Ravenloft? What if that place comes back from there, rather then Abeir? How different would those people be?
It could be an easy way to un-Egypt Mulhorand quite a bit, and give it more of that 'Stygian' flavor. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 16:48:38
With Spelljammer or Planescape, it's not necessary to involve Ravenloft as a waystop, and neatly avoids the issue of getting out of Ravenloft, which is never easy.
We know of extensive contact between Oerth and Toril, and we know from the Wizard's Three articles that each of the three had at least some familiarity with the worlds of the others. So direct planar travel, which was canon until 3E, is the easiest solution. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 15:36:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not a big fan of Dragonlance, but I know a little.
I used Lord Soth and his Realm as the intermediary. Faerûnians have gone to Ravenloft (and a few have returned), and Soth had a Realm there for a time. It is feasible that certain FR personages traveled through Sithicus (Soth's realm in RL) and learned about the process.
There was aRed Wizard that would have been especially good for this scenario. I forget his name.
Hazlik ruled Hazlan. Soth ruled his own realm of Sithicus. However, Sithicus didn't form until at least after 357 AC in Krynn's timeline. Therefore, the timeline could be pretty tight here if somoene tries to stay close to lore (granted as far as I know, we don't know when it was that Jalanvaloss killed Nabalnyth). In my view, it'd simply be easier to believe that a mage who was involved fled the world whenever the War of the Lance went bad. Maybe they went to planescape's Sigil. Maybe they spelljammed their way. Said mage MAY have made their way to Toril.... or they could have been killed off by a Cult of the Dragon member (or someone else). In fact, it'd be kind of interesting if he/she was killed off and some Sigilian/Spelljammer looked over the ritual in the book and said "hmmm, those Dragon Cultists on Toril might give good money for this". |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 14:54:17
Not a big fan of Dragonlance, but I know a little.
I would use Lord Soth and his Realm as the intermediary. Faerûnians have gone to Ravenloft (and a few have returned), and Soth had a Realm there for a time. It is feasible that certain FR personages traveled through Sithicus (Soth's realm in RL) and learned about the process.
There was a Red Wizard that would have been especially good for this scenario. I forget his name. |
| Ze |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 14:45:49
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just another thought, it could be that Tiamat actually sent Jalanvaloss to kill Nabalnyth. Or maybe Jalanvaloss simply didn't like corruption of dragon eggs.
The latter suits best the fact that Jalanvaloss has been fighting a long-time battle to keep the Cult of the Dragon away from Waterdeep and surrounding areas.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 14:31:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
At one point, we were given info that 1361 DC and 358 AC were the same time.
Ok, so assuming no major time variance, the war of the dragonlance ends in 353 AC (at least the timelines I see on the web say this), so that would be 1356 DR. So it is a doable thing still. Given that the ritual was a "hot commodity" around this time, having just been uncovered, etc... it might make sense that someone involved fled Krynn around this time with the formula. Hmmm, I really like this idea. Thank you Ze for your variation, I didn't realize when I started helping here that I'd come up with something that I really like, but this could be pretty fun.
Just another thought, it could be that Tiamat actually sent Jalanvaloss to kill Nabalnyth. Or maybe Jalanvaloss simply didn't like corruption of dragon eggs. Interestingly, this might all have been right around the time that Gareth Dragonsbane and company were being sent in by Bahamut to "kill" Tiamat to destroy the wand of Orcus in her blood. There might be a whole huge plot seething behind all of this. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 13:48:04
At one point, we were given info that 1361 DC and 358 AC were the same time. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 13:40:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure the Cult of the Dragon would be down with creating draconians. Every batch of draconians is a dragon who will never become a Sacred One.
Since draconians are made from the perversion of a good dragon's egg, I don't see this way. Even if there are rogue dragons. I was thinking yesterday if it would happen in the other way: followers of Takhisis crossbreeding dragons with other creatures, like chimeras and wyverns, or creating undead out of their almost sacred chromatic dragons...
Ah, but that does bring up an issue with my idea (Nabalnyth using the ritual), since Nabalnyth is a black dragon. Is there anything that says draconians cannot be made from the eggs of Chromatic dragons (just wondering)? I know they'd end up being a variant draconian as a result. I can see a black dragon doing it so as to have new minions that won't try to overthrow them. From the Cult of the Dragon's standpoint, yes it would be fewer sacred ones (unless they also "enhance" the draconians... and it doesn't matter dracolich... mummy... vampire... etc...).
The Dragonlance setting does have noble draconians -- those made from the eggs of evil dragons. I don't know if they appeared in the fiction or not...
The story is that after the good dragons got involved and got their eggs back, the dragonarmies were desperate for a new source to keep making draconians. So they started using the eggs of evil dragons. But the gods of good complained, so for the sake of Balance, instead of being evil, those draconians -- which Ariakus dubbed "noble draconians" because of how they carried themselves -- came out good. A bunch had been made before anyone wised up to the fact that these draconians weren't the same as the ones made from good eggs. When it was discovered, many of them were destroyed.
They really got a bum deal, because people assume all draconians are evil, and also because Takhisis torments them with visions of evil dragons -- they see what they could have been, and these good guys also get to see all the bad things that their source dragons like to do.
Interesting, so the people who have "uncovered" the ritual in Krynn and are bringing it to the realms could actually be followers of Bahamut. They could have duped the Cult of the dragon and Nabalnyth in order to get these noble draconians into the realms.
However, there MAY be an issue with this, and that involves dates. We know that Hendar was involved with Nabalnyth after 1352 DR, but AFAIK, we don't know when Nabalnyth and Jalanvaloss tied up. We also don't know a comparison of Krynn's timeline to 1357 DR (the start of the realms timeline). However, that being said... we know the entire dragonlance story was out before FR came out, so I'd pretty much assume we can say that the War from Dragonlance Chronicles had already ended by 1357 DR (hell, I can't recall, but maybe even the activities in the Dragonlance Legends series had already happened). I only list this as a possible issue, not a definite one. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 13:08:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure the Cult of the Dragon would be down with creating draconians. Every batch of draconians is a dragon who will never become a Sacred One.
Since draconians are made from the perversion of a good dragon's egg, I don't see this way. Even if there are rogue dragons. I was thinking yesterday if it would happen in the other way: followers of Takhisis crossbreeding dragons with other creatures, like chimeras and wyverns, or creating undead out of their almost sacred chromatic dragons...
Ah, but that does bring up an issue with my idea (Nabalnyth using the ritual), since Nabalnyth is a black dragon. Is there anything that says draconians cannot be made from the eggs of Chromatic dragons (just wondering)? I know they'd end up being a variant draconian as a result. I can see a black dragon doing it so as to have new minions that won't try to overthrow them. From the Cult of the Dragon's standpoint, yes it would be fewer sacred ones (unless they also "enhance" the draconians... and it doesn't matter dracolich... mummy... vampire... etc...).
The Dragonlance setting does have noble draconians -- those made from the eggs of evil dragons. I don't know if they appeared in the fiction or not...
The story is that after the good dragons got involved and got their eggs back, the dragonarmies were desperate for a new source to keep making draconians. So they started using the eggs of evil dragons. But the gods of good complained, so for the sake of Balance, instead of being evil, those draconians -- which Ariakus dubbed "noble draconians" because of how they carried themselves -- came out good. A bunch had been made before anyone wised up to the fact that these draconians weren't the same as the ones made from good eggs. When it was discovered, many of them were destroyed.
They really got a bum deal, because people assume all draconians are evil, and also because Takhisis torments them with visions of evil dragons -- they see what they could have been, and these good guys also get to see all the bad things that their source dragons like to do. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 12:13:58
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure the Cult of the Dragon would be down with creating draconians. Every batch of draconians is a dragon who will never become a Sacred One.
Since draconians are made from the perversion of a good dragon's egg, I don't see this way. Even if there are rogue dragons. I was thinking yesterday if it would happen in the other way: followers of Takhisis crossbreeding dragons with other creatures, like chimeras and wyverns, or creating undead out of their almost sacred chromatic dragons...
Ah, but that does bring up an issue with my idea (Nabalnyth using the ritual), since Nabalnyth is a black dragon. Is there anything that says draconians cannot be made from the eggs of Chromatic dragons (just wondering)? I know they'd end up being a variant draconian as a result. I can see a black dragon doing it so as to have new minions that won't try to overthrow them. From the Cult of the Dragon's standpoint, yes it would be fewer sacred ones (unless they also "enhance" the draconians... and it doesn't matter dracolich... mummy... vampire... etc...). |
| Barastir |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 11:34:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure the Cult of the Dragon would be down with creating draconians. Every batch of draconians is a dragon who will never become a Sacred One.
Since draconians are made from the perversion of a good dragon's egg, I don't see this way. Even if there are rogue dragons. I was thinking yesterday if it would happen in the other way: followers of Takhisis crossbreeding dragons with other creatures, like chimeras and wyverns, or creating undead out of their almost sacred chromatic dragons... |
| Ze |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 06:18:12
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I recall mentions of Tuelhalva [in Cult of the Dragon] using less obvious dragon-kin and other lesser draconic types to supplement his main forces when he made a bid for greater power amongst the Cult in 1018 DR.
Thanks Sage, I'll have to look into that. It sounds like it might blend in well.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 02:50:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure the Cult of the Dragon would be down with creating draconians. Every batch of draconians is a dragon who will never become a Sacred One.
On the other hand, I would think that draconians [taken from Krynn] could be pressed into the service of the Cult. Or, at least, some version of it.
I recall mentions of Tuelhalva [in Cult of the Dragon] using less obvious dragon-kin and other lesser draconic types to supplement his main forces when he made a bid for greater power amongst the Cult in 1018 DR.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 23:29:30
I'm not sure the Cult of the Dragon would be down with creating draconians. Every batch of draconians is a dragon who will never become a Sacred One. |
| Ze |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 21:05:44
Weird coincidence, during the last session of my group in our current campaign - where I'm currently playing, not DMing - we crossed a portal that lead us to Krynn, and we fought draconians!
So, no, for the sake of variety I'll stick to Urds, or some other dragonspawn.
Definitely not kobolds - they are still barking in our book, sorry.
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 20:37:33
This is a plot I'll use in my ampaign, some Krynnish serviotor of Takhisis rying to exchange knowledge with the Cult of the Dragon, tradingthe formula of draconians for other draconic servitors, or even the dracolich formula. Hopefully, I'll have two adventuring groups playing at the time, one from Toril and the other from Krynn.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 13:40:30
nice, see we get so much better lore when we accept (almost) everything as true and work the lore around that premise. That's a really good concept. Another idea would be that Nabalnyth actually came across Krynn based lore (basically, the ritual she was using to create draconians), maybe from a planar traveller or a spelljammer. The other dragon (Jalanvaloss) may have discovered this sacrilege and specifically attacked because of it. Hell, the Cult of the Dragon may have even acquired the lore in travelling between worlds (maybe they went to Krynn where they found Dragons ruling). |
| Ze |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 17:11:25
Here's an additional bit, adding up your suggestions.
--
Nabalnyth, originally a male dragon, settled in the Rat Hills and started recruiting Cultists to serve him in a project he developed by studying two of the tomes Constulgrael left him. The tomes were a copy of Reverent Dreamer Rhistel Laelithar’s Treatise Historical of the Dragon Tyrants*, and The Vellum of Kuraulyek’s Genesis – the latter a sacred scripture composed of a set of parchments describing the creation of Kuraulyek, the first Urd*.
What Nabalnyth learned from those texts allowed him to devise a ritual to create Urds from dragon’s eggs. To that purpose, though, he needed eggs a dragon would agree to part from, and an easy solution would be to lay his own eggs. He then obtained a girdle of gender change, had it adapted by Cultists to suit a dragon’s finger, and changed gender.
The location of the Rat Hills was chosen because it offered the best environment for this project, mainly due to the relatively low number and power of other denizens, to the proximity to a big city whence Cultists could be recruited, and to the high degree of putrefaction needed to correctly hatch the eggs for making Urds - they should be hatched in an environment both warm and rotten, which matches closely the core of the biggest rubbish hills.
The Cultist attended in awe to the gender change, and that is just another secret that only Hendar the Scarred (and any other possible survivor) would know.
Jalanvaloss, expecting to face a male dragon, was surprised to fight a female Nabalnyth. The “Wyrm of Many Spells” simply dismissed the discrepancy as a mistake of the "lesser races", who can't even tell genders when it comes to dragons.
* Grand History of the Realms
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 05:02:06
I'd personally assume that the whatever gender was listed for Nabalnyth, in the text, was the correct one.
Another option, though, is some sort of voluntary changing of gender. It need not be for mating, or anything long-term -- maybe Nabs one day had some con or something going on, or needed a disguise. |
| Ze |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 23:09:18
Sleyvas, for the sake of clarity, I think you are mistaking Jalanvaloss for Nabalnyth.
Applying your idea to Nabalnyth, that might work - you don't even need the "body of glory" workaround, if you rule that the girdle was modified to work as a dragon-sized ring.
Reconciling this with the available lore, Nabalnyth would originally be a male, which was then tricked into wearing the girdle. Thus Nabalnyth turned into a female, and dies as such, which is in agreement with the Roll Call.
One point remains: who could want the dragon turned into a female? I would exclude Jalanvaloss, not her style, and no apparent gain.
Instead, I would say that the very Cult of the Dragon serving Nabalnyth could have a gain from that - maybe they needed an egg of a black, or they wanted to make some weird experiment on a female dragon (dragonspawn maybe?). Going this way, this sex change would be another secret that only Hendar the Scarred would know.
But a hint about the truth could also be with Jalanvaloss, who had heard about Nabalnyth as being a male dragon, but then, when J. faced N. - and destroyed him - J. found out that strangely N. was a "she". Jalanvaloss simply dismissed the discrepancy as a mistake of the lesser races, who can't even tell genders when it comes to dragons.
Does it roll?
Edit - "sex exchange" was not exactly what I meant...  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 16:06:19
just another thought. There is a cursed item which swaps gender. If somehow Jalanvaloss were inflicted with the effects of this cursed item? For instance, maybe this dragon uses something akin to a hand of glory, but its in the form of an entire body (lets call it a body of glory for this discussion). Thus, it is able to put on objects that normally wouldn't even remotely fit it. Now, maybe some other dragon knew of this.... and maybe they decided to be mean and sent someone in with a girdle of masculinity/femininity to put on the "body of glory"? Maybe even Jalanvaloss was pregnant and this was their means of destroying the child. Maybe it was because of a prophecy that a child of Jalanvaloss would do something, maybe just someone was a bastard, maybe it was a means to capture a dragon's soul. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 14:41:38
Good point, Markustay. There are a number of species in nature that can change sex or exhibit fluid gender - clownfish, sheephead fish, and other fish; many worms; some frogs; a number of molluscs.
From what I understand, being born one sex and changing at some other point in a being's life is known as sequential hermaphroditism. It's even been known to happen among some humans, though it's quite rare.
In other words, it isn't impossible. My suspicion is that the case of this dragon is more likely to be a simple typo or minor lore error, but if you want to square it, there there are some possible explanations.
In addition to the sex change issue, it's possible that people in the Realms were actually mistaken about the gender of the dragon. Unless you can get up close and personal with a dragon, which seems highly unwise, it can be hard to tell the sex of the creature. So it could just be that some people thought the dragon was male, but it was actually female. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 14:32:26
A Theory:
Since we know there are RW species that can spontaneously change their sex when mates of the opposite sex are unavailable, and given the alien reptilian nature of dragons combined with their penchant for magic (and shape-changing), and add-in the fact that quite often suitable mates are not always available (to a species that is 'on the decline'), I think it entirely possible that some dragons may opt for a (temporary?) 'sex change', and could be both mothers and fathers.
I am not saying this is common, but I can see some dragons choosing to go this route, rather then mating with an unacceptable (chromatic/metallic/whatever) sub-species. I very much doubt such an ancient and alien species would have any sort of trans-gender hangups in this regard.
Thus, it is entirely possible for a dragon to have been both male and female. And why not? Certain other well known Realms personages have been. |
| Ze |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 14:13:06
:)
Thanks Eytan!
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| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 10:33:42
I don't know of any errata. It's quite possible it's just a mistake, though Eric (Boyd) might know more as I think he had a larger hand in assembling the Dragon Roll Call. Doesn't seem like adventurers care to much about the gender of a dragon when they kill said dragon, though I guess it does make a difference to the offspring of that dragon, or to any family members of the dragon. I would go with whatever works best for your story/game. |
| Ze |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 06:44:20
Why, thank you George!
I forgot to mention the obvious discrepancy within DoF, where Nabalnyth is referred to as male (in Jalanvaloss' description) AND as female (in the roll).
In the above text I left the sentences as they are written in the books, but either way would work, so that didn't bother me much.
If someone knows that the gender was ever errata'd or clarified, I'll correct the first post. :)
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