| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 16:17:24
So I went to find the newest (pre-plague) info on this region, and I can't even find a mention of it in the 3e CG... am I missing something?
Its not in the section of the Unapproachable East, nor in the Old Empires section, and it doesn't have its own section (as the Dragon Coast does). What Gives? How could it have just been completely over-looked? 
IS there 3e info on this region? Where can I find out the latest (3e and earlier) events about this area? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 20:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Are you jabbing at me, Jeremy? I think you're jabbing. I undoubtedly deserve it, though, so... cheers. 
Not jabbing. More like teasing.
In all seriousness, I've come to realize not all people complain or gripe or whatever word you want to use because it's easy to be negative and just throw it out there.
Some people do it because they care a lot, so they make their voice heard as often as possible.
In that way it's kind of like a perpetual motion machine or unlimited energy. I just wish there was a way to harness that energy and use it in a positive manner.
The point wouldn't be to change people's minds or tell them what they can or can't think, but to provide a point of reference and a source of knowledge for fans of the setting about why certain controversial (if only within this little corner of the internets) decisions were made.
I think a more informed fan base is a fan base better able to communicate its wants and desires to the current crop of game designers and editors at WotC. If we're informed about the Realms' design history, we may be able to provide a perspective that a designer might not otherwise have been aware of.
Apologies, Wooly. I'll take my leave from this scroll. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 16:30:46
Let us please not go treading down this road any further, please. We've gone down this path many, many times. There is a lot more we could discuss, with far more productive results, rather than rehashing old arguments. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 13:17:55
I used to think that someone (or several someones) 'had it out for' the Forgotten Realms in 4e. I used to espouse this belief quite a lot on the WotC forums (and here, when I first began to migrate over full-time). My reasoning was that I could not believe that some of those decisions (like that positively atrocious 4e FR campaign map) weren't done with malice. The bottom line is, I was giving the 4e design team too much credit.
I NOW believe nothing they did was with malice - they truly thought they were 'fixing' the Realms. While that raises my opinion of them as human beings, it unfortunately lowers my opinion of their decision-making capabilities drastically. I find it difficult to believe everyone was on-board with that - I think it was more the case of one or two strong personalities forcing their 'vision' on their friends.
Of course, we'll probably never know (and everything I just said is just IMHO). It also doesn't matter as of right now - its like arguing over what really started WWII. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 09:04:10
Are you jabbing at me, Jeremy? I think you're jabbing. I undoubtedly deserve it, though, so... cheers.
While I think it might be productive to have a place for complaints, I don't think we gripers would think to post there in the heat of the moment. Which is the real problem... once we're out of the moment, we realize that complaining isn't going to accomplish anything, and we can elect not to post at all, or dial it down to an appropriate level. So it would end up being a wastebasket where the mods actively dump rants... which just ends up being more work for them, and also generates more animosity.
It would be nice if WotC provided more answers regarding the thoughts behind some of their decisions. But for all I know, they do provide them, in various columns on the website over the last several years which I haven't read. One example being the illuminating link that Markus provided earlier. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 07:48:13
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
People would be encouraged to gripe on this sub-forum ...
People need encouragement?
You're asking me? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 06:46:39
quote:
People would be encouraged to gripe on this sub-forum ...
People need encouragement? |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 05:48:03
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
No offense is ever meant in my comments toward cartographers or authors... just toward those who make stupid decisions (large-scale directional changes) and then force the rest of us to deal with them. 
Sometimes I find myself wishing their was a sub-forum under the Realmslore shelf dedicated to uncovering and establishing the equivalent of canonical information about design decisions.
People would be encouraged to gripe on this sub-forum, so as to have a compass of sorts pointing us in the direction of what truths need to be uncovered, while simultaneously burying the years-after-it-happened complaints that, it seems, will never end.  and |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 01:50:51
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
What dwarf, of the name Hammerfist, would wield a sword? I dont se that happening, not even a parade one.
Good point. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 01:48:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@xaeyruudh - I think the style of the 3e campaign is nice (which s why I love copying it), but I wouldn't be so quick to blame the cartographer for all the problems...
It's never my intent to hate on the cartographer (or the author, or anyone else who puts pen to paper or fingers to keyboard). I've been the gruntwork in enough school & work projects that I've learned it's not often the gruntwork's fault.
I will argue that no cartographer would be a part of what was done to the FR map in 3e. Whoever they got to draw the map was a decent artist, but he/she was not a cartographer. That probably sounds elitist to most readers, but there are principles...
And I'll shush. No offense is ever meant in my comments toward cartographers or authors... just toward those who make stupid decisions (large-scale directional changes) and then force the rest of us to deal with them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 21:13:21
Are you trying to get somebody else to say "Reach for the Stars"? Mark 50 experience points off your sheet. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 20:35:21
@xaeyruudh - I think the style of the 3e campaign is nice (which s why I love copying it), but I wouldn't be so quick to blame the cartographer for all the problems - he did what he was told to do (and he unfortunately dropped a few things in the process). They set out to bring everything closer together, and to that end, they accomplished their goal. They basically un-POL'd it (because that wasn't the 'kewl buzzword' back in 3e).
@GK -Not so much a Border kingdoms as it is a coastal region of true citystates (unlike down in the Old Empires, where those citystates have grown into quasi-kingdoms). I shouldn't be upset, because the lack of detail allowed me to shoe-horn Varissia (Golarion) on to the end of the Pennisula, and that was a setting unto itself until Paizo decided to use to as a basis for its new Golarion setting (which I personally feel caused a major continuity gaff within that setting, because now we have two completely different races from a single nation, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense in light of whats going on elsewhere in that world). Since Varissia is a non-nation itself - more like a geographic area with several large cities competing for the right to rule the rest - it was a damn good fit flavor-wise.
Oh... and my Thay is Cheliax. Cheliax = cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I just realized each of the branching arms of the Sea of Fallen Stars is a Reach, odd thing to never notice - I suppose my focus has usually been on the land, not the water.
Reaching for what? 
Lots of cool things going on regarding The Sea of Fallen Stars. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 18:36:44
Ha, not to sound like min/max stats are the only thing of importance ... but have you seen the weapon tables? What dwarf would ever use a crappy weapon like a warhammer? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 17:55:15
Lots of dwarves use swords! Especially the ones that don't want to rely on wood in an axe to hold for centuries as an heirloom.
Dwarves and swords go way back...don't get stuck in a stereotype! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 16:32:08
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I hope this is ok to post, if not plese remove:
4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story.
What dwarf, of the name Hammerfist, would wield a sword? I dont se that happening, not even a parade one.
It's not a traditional dwarven weapon, but I don't have a problem with it. Members of any race can vary from the norm, to a greater or lesser extent. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 15:43:12
I hope this is ok to post, if not plese remove:
4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story.
What dwarf, of the name Hammerfist, would wield a sword? I dont se that happening, not even a parade one.
|
| Mapolq |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 23:23:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There's also the Lake of Dragons, the Bay of Chessenta, the Alambar Sea and the aforementioned sea of Dlurg - but i see your point. It does make me wonder if the part of the sea of Fallen stars going over toward Sembia before the Lake of Dragons has a "reach" name as well. Maybe "Westing Reach" for parallelism with the Easting Reach?
The Masked Mage, THO answered that one on page 57 of the Questions for Ed 2012 thread. The most widespread name is "Starmantle Reach". |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 12:23:35
I found the map rolled up with a few others in this Candlekeep scroll (there are quite a few scattered through the pages of writing).
I'm not sure, but it appears the map was drawn by scribe HandsomeRob, inactive here since mid-2010, but his profile links to an email. It seems he abandoned the Realms to map a world named Sorel, then abandoned Sorel to map a strange Steampunk world. His maps are quite excellent and compatible with Google Earth. There are many maps in Alaundo's Library, but it's too big a mess for my little mobile bandwidth to sort through.
Click the little camera icon in the Google Image Search bar, you can then link or upload a picture to use as the search parameter, the results will be all (well, most) images found to contain some or all of the same graphic, even if it's been cropped or altered a little. Great for finding maps and people and (most importantly, booya!) identifying manufacturers/brands from the logos printed on obscure circuit components. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 11:48:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm unfamiliar with the name. I see The Wizard's Reach near the bottom of this map, the name of a coastline?
I can't speak for the authors, but I suspect Aglarond has remained largely undeveloped because it's sort of treated as "Ed's turf", obviously none of the authors want to step on each other's toes, certainly nobody wants Greenwood Enraged. Besides, the entire region has sort of fallen out of the spotlight now that the canon has moved beyond events in Thay.
Love this map - are there more? any chance whoever made it did all Faerun? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 11:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Wizard's Reach is mentioned in FR6: Dreams of the Red Wizards (p.29-30; "The Aldor", "Chessenta", "Wizards' Reach"), FR10: Old Empires (p.4; p.5 "-135 DR", p.8 "The Coastal Cities"; p.35 "People and Society ..."), Sea of Fallen Stars (p.149 "Poragga"), although little specific information is given because the text usually discusses other things.
I just realized each of the branching arms of the Sea of Fallen Stars is a Reach, odd thing to never notice - I suppose my focus has usually been on the land, not the water.
There's also the Lake of Dragons, the Bay of Chessenta, the Alambar Sea and the aforementioned sea of Dlurg - but i see your point. It does make me wonder if the part of the sea of Fallen stars going over toward Sembia before the Lake of Dragons has a "reach" name as well. Maybe "Westing Reach" for parallelism with the Easting Reach? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 07:53:23
Wizard's Reach is mentioned in FR6: Dreams of the Red Wizards (p.29-30; "The Aldor", "Chessenta", "Wizards' Reach"), FR10: Old Empires (p.4; p.5 "-135 DR", p.8 "The Coastal Cities"; p.35 "People and Society ..."), Sea of Fallen Stars (p.149 "Poragga"), although little specific information is given because the text usually discusses other things.
I just realized each of the branching arms of the Sea of Fallen Stars is a Reach, odd thing to never notice - I suppose my focus has usually been on the land, not the water. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 03:21:00
I always assumed that the southern coast was a part of Aglarond, but looking back at Spellbound, not one of those cities is detailed. Very surprising. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 02:44:02
Not that my opinion matters but I'm in complete agreement that the gray box was much more consistent with the Points of Light philosophy than anything WotC has done since then.
It's annoying that WotC pretends to have come up with this idea, and proclaims it as a wonderful new guiding principle, when Ed had been doing it for decades, right in front of everyone, and can describe what he does in a way that makes sense to us and helps DMs to try to do the same... without flamboyantly giving a name to it or needing any pats on the back for it.
And... I have absolutely no hope of finding anything positive or even neutral to say about the 3e map or any aspect of the 4e treatment of the Realms, and I'm trying to spare myself a reprimand from Sage or Wooly, so I shall expend some self-discipline (it's like bacon... always in short supply).
Have a good night, all.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 03 Feb 2013 : 02:33:40
FR6 and Spellbound provide the only (scant) information on the Wizard's Reach cities. Ed's "Temptation of Elminster" novel is set there in part, but in the 900s DR.
Over the years, Eric and I did some historical work on the northern coast (Velprin and Milvarn) but haven't really travelled to the south coast much in our musings. I've always considered the Wizard's Reach to be a smaller, eastern version of the Border Kingdoms, albeit with a threatening Thay and a paranoid Aglarond looming over the area. In my book, it's a place where Thay and Aglarond duel on an intrigue-level.
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 21:52:38
AGREED.
Sadly, I usually find much better info in older products. I had to go back to Spellbound and Dreams of the Red Wizards to get anything on the Wizard's Reach. Later products - most notably the 3e UE sourcebook (the section on Thay) seems more like a 'primer' with very little 'meat' at all. Here I am staring at one of the most detailed maps of Thay ever done... and almost no entries on any of those locales. Aside from the pretty map, all of the info is available elsewhere (and in more depth). Even the timeline is sparse (its missing stuff about Szass Tam, like when he became a lich!)
I often find myself going to the 3e sources first, and then going back to the 'real' sources. And of course, the 4e sources are practically useless for info on a pre-plague game/map.
@Ayrik - Yes, the waterway/channel/straight is The Wizard's Reach, but it also includes the southern coast of the Aglarondan Peninsula (which is NOT part of Aglarond - I used to think that, but Aglarond-proper is only north of the forest).
@THO - does Ed agree with my assessment that the original (un-tweaked) maps WERE PoL, and that what 4e tried to accomplish was basically un-doing the mistake 3e made (squishing everything close together and removing all those wonderful 'fiddly bits')?
3e - "There's way too much undetailed, empty areas - lets shrink the maps and bring everything closer together."
4e - "There's way too much civilization close together - we need more 'empty' (monster) areas - lets nuke 50-75% of all the civilized bits to create Points of Light."
  |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 20:54:56
Nope, Ayrik, not stepping on Ed's toes and treating part of the Realms as "Ed's turf" has never been part of handling Realms fiction. Remember, except for the real-world-analogue parts of the Realms added to Ed's original (Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc.) it's ALL Ed's turf. He created Waterdeep, Cormyr, Thay, Sembia, Aglarond, Amn, Calimshan...ALL of it.
I recall once, long ago, when a senior editor wanted Ed to "stay out of Waterdeep" because it "belonged" to another author - - and quickly got firmly corrected by that editor's on-staff colleagues, not by Ed.
The Wizard's Reach WAS held in reserve for some time as a place to "go wild" in future products...but those products never happened. Here's the interesting thing: like Hollywood doing endless sequels and remakes because "we already know X sells," there's often been tension at TSR and later WotC between using or covering already-popular areas again, and moving into so-called uncharted territory. It's my private opinion that some of the pruning of the maps that went on over the years was to remove some geography and so take calls for those areas to be covered in regional lorebooks off the table. This tension is almost certainly why we've never seen an in-depth Cormyr sourcebook, after the slender late 2e product.
love,
THO |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 20:29:46
I'm unfamiliar with the name. I see The Wizard's Reach near the bottom of this map, the name of a coastline?
I can't speak for the authors, but I suspect Aglarond has remained largely undeveloped because it's sort of treated as "Ed's turf", obviously none of the authors want to step on each other's toes, certainly nobody wants Greenwood Enraged. Besides, the entire region has sort of fallen out of the spotlight now that the canon has moved beyond events in Thay. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 20:20:06
"There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story."
That's just... sad. Pathetic. Meh. I shouldn't have asked. I'd kinda rather not have names to attach to the most tragic decisions. One day, it'll be someone I want to like, ya know?
Ed and others are finding stories to tell in the most widely discussed and developed places in the Realms: Waterdeep, Cormyr, and the Dales. Nobody's asking anybody to be Ed. Nobody's asking anybody to write in Waterdeep or Cormyr... got plenty of inspiration in that area already. But how about the Dragon Coast, or the Vast, or the Easting Reach, or the Vilhon, or the Wizards' Reach? And that's just Inner Sea nations, where the foundations have already been laid. There are entire continents out there to build from the ground up.
Although, if this attitude that there's no place left to write in goes all the way to the top of WotC, then I guess they won't buy fiction set in new places anyway, even if someone tries to do something new. sigh.
If you can't open up a map, close your eyes, point at a random spot, picture it in your mind, and go write something about it, then perhaps creative writing isn't the field for you. And if you can't see the possibilities given to you on a silver platter, management definitely isn't the place for you.
Preaching to the choir, I know. Sorry. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 16:08:31
I have found bits and pieces, Dalor, but its very fragmentary and spread all over the place (and what little there is repeats a lot of the same basic information).
I'd LOVE to see Ed (or Krash) do a series of articles on the region. I found a tiny bit about Impiltur fighting Thay yesterday in my digging, so he is the man "to go to" on the subject of the Eastern Realms (outside of Ed himself, of course).
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Where does that quote come from?
I need to know who I should be laughing at.
Go HERE. It was Phil Athans (the man who was in charge of continuity problems back then... 'nuff said).
Look down at the first part of the second 'block' - the one entitled "Forgotten Realms Core Ideal" (I'm even laughing at the title right now... Who's 'core ideals' were they using?)
So obviously - since employees of WotC are infallible - there must be a monumental amount of material I haven't seen. Will someone please be kind enough to point me in the direction of the sourcebooks on Katashaka, Osse, and Anchorome? Maybe I shouldn't be so demanding - how about just a 3e update on the Vilhon Reach, or the Old Empires? Kara-Tur? The Hordelands? Hmmmmmm.....
I guess I'll just stick to my old Sembia sourcebook... oh... wait... {smirk}
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 05:27:25
Was there information on the area in writings concerning Unther or Thay? |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 02:55:56
Where does that quote come from?
I need to know who I should be laughing at.
Edited to make me look like less of a mean jerk toward people who make silly statements. |
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