| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 13:30:49
I'm not sure if this is right or not... but did they kill off Halaster too?
That's what a wiki I just came across says, and it seems like just one day he was dead. If so how the hell did they work out all the magical consequences?
Also, can someone just list the major NPCs that have been killed in print?
I know they killed Khelben (don't get me started on that book) :/, but who are the others? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quale |
Posted - 21 Jun 2013 : 08:38:50
he does not need clones, he drank Halaster's Quaff elixir that instead of death causes the body to pass into the Ethereal in temporal stasis |
| Lothlos |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 21:13:21
I was stated in Villians I believe that it should be assumed that Halaster had clones of himself. I feel it is easiest to believe that a clone activated and it took Halaster time to repair the damage from the earthquake his spell caused and that is what is hinted at in 4e. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 11:09:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think its safe to say that while "chosen" by Mystra to perform a task, he was not "Chosen" by Mystra to carry her essence.
The problem being discussed was whether silver fire would interfere with the stasis clone spell. Manshoon did indeed carry silver fire within himself (unaware of it or not), and he obviously had no trouble cloning himself. The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that Mystra invested silver fire in this clone only. As long as this clone hasn't cloned himself then there should be no problem.
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| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 07:19:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think its safe to say that while "chosen" by Mystra to perform a task, he was not "Chosen" by Mystra to carry her essence.
Could you elaborate?
As far as I know, Mystra's essence doesn't just lay around on street corners, waiting to be picked up by the latest passerby. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 06:09:40
I think its safe to say that while "chosen" by Mystra to perform a task, he was not "Chosen" by Mystra to carry her essence. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 14:57:12
On the subject of chosen being able to use stasis clone- in ed's last elminster book, wasn't manshoon revealed to be a chosen? If manshoon can create clones then surely other chosen can too? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 02:39:13
quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
As for Kelban, look to Rhymanthiin, his duty to perform without hesitation or mental reservation...
My point was it was stupid, plain and simple. His "duty" after 12000 years amounts to nothing more than the high moor and the Dark Disaster being too interesting for meddling game designers/writers to leave alone. The evidence is the way it was done. It was like listening to a name-dropper talk about how cool he is because he knows this and that and the other historically famous wizard and how he knows this incredibly powerful spell. Oh, and all those wizards have just been sleeping away the past 500 years because they knew that this would happen, and it is sooo important that they could not possibly have worked together to have made the realms a better place in all that time - JOKE.
Khelben is established as being half-half elven. But the book presents him as basically an elf wearing a human disguise (re-read it if you think that's an exaggeration), and a High Mage to boot - a high mage center to be precise. Talk about departing from cannon.
The creator of moonblades mentioned to me once she was not in favor of the idea of their use here too, by the way, but why ask for permission to destroy what a more creative author created 15-20 years before just because you can't think of a new plot device. That would involve creativity.
Not to mention that the High Mages alive back then were collectively far more powerful than Khelben, and could have made this happen way back when. I literally through that book in the trash and in my mind it clearly marked the beginning of the Realms inexorable decline into 4th E.
I could go on and on but I'll stop ranting there as I know people here want us all to be nice on this topic. For the record, I did say don't get me started. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 02:16:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Andrekan
Getting back to Halaster, I remember after he was torn to pieces by devils in aid to Elminster in Hell, he was crying in the arms of Mystra who granted him a spark of sanity which may possibly have lead up to his (accidental or intentional) self sacrifice that shattered his soul into fragments which were scattered about.
Halaster has had several other episodes of lucid sanity (admittedly, he was a basically powerless prisoner during one of these) wherein he seemed an almost affable fellow with no pressing desire to sacrifice himself for any reason. What would've changed him in Elminster in Hell novel enough for suicide to suddenly become a viable/preferred option?
I'd definitely not say he committed suicide. If that was the case he would have kamikazeed down there, and he would not have needed Mystra's boon of sanity to do that. He retreated to return to his life, not to seek out death elsewhere. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 23:15:10
quote:
Andrekan
Getting back to Halaster, I remember after he was torn to pieces by devils in aid to Elminster in Hell, he was crying in the arms of Mystra who granted him a spark of sanity which may possibly have lead up to his (accidental or intentional) self sacrifice that shattered his soul into fragments which were scattered about.
Halaster has had several other episodes of lucid sanity (admittedly, he was a basically powerless prisoner during one of these) wherein he seemed an almost affable fellow with no pressing desire to sacrifice himself for any reason. What would've changed him in Elminster in Hell novel enough for suicide to suddenly become a viable/preferred option? |
| Andrekan |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 18:25:38
Getting back to Halaster, I remember after he was torn to pieces by devils in aid to Elminster in Hell, he was crying in the arms of Mystra who granted him a spark of sanity which may possibly have lead up to his (accidental or intentional) self sacrifice that shattered his soul into fragments which were scattered about.
I used it in some of my games, sometimes directly hinting to the players (the ghostly form of a bald bearded wizard with tattered brown robes stands before the archway and vanishes with a pulse of arcane energy as the portal forms or ancient gate thunders). Some of the things they were doing tramping around in the Undermountain were indirectly assimilating some of Halaster's soul shards as certain gates might open they (the players) could not have opened otherwise. During this process some items or treasures would crumble to dust. So I am quiet sure with all of the other traffic within the Undermountain something similar, could possibly, occur along with the return of Mystra.
This is of course my personal theory, as after running Undermountain adventures on and off for twenty some odd years, I could not image a place so haunted by such a powerful ghost (Mad Mage) not still have some of that ghost (Mad Mage) essence clinging in dark dusty corners.
The general public Above or even the residence there within might not be truly aware of it until some fantastic event (like a Harvestide) makes rumors and/or verifications fly.
He was never dead in my book as DM and Halaster fan, just shattered and scattered not smuthered and covered..
As for Kelban, look to Rhymanthiin, his duty to perform without hesitation or mental reservation... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 08:22:03
I suppose the point might be to explore further plots which might arise from the rules. I mean, the entire vampshoon notion was an attempt to explain a story event through a rules context, why not look to the rules again to see where they can take him.
Plot provides good fiction, rules provide good gaming, of course they don't have to (and probably never can) always precisely coexist. But most of my favourite FR novels are those wherein I recognize gaming elements and plot being mutually reinforced rather than having either one completely brush the other aside. Most of the FR novels I consider poorly written are those which throw their story into the Realms with sweeping disregard of any game mechanics, or those which are cleverly orchestrated sequences of plodding game details which end up reading more like modules than stories. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 07:51:43
My point was: what is to be gained by the analysis? Are you trying to say that Manshoon and his clones "should not be" because they don't conform with "the Rules"? To limit the grand tapestry of the Realms because an interesting and play-enhancing aspect of it isn't congruent with pg 86 of the PH is a curious attitude to gaming, in my book. Especially when it has nothing to do with the actual game mechanics that are being quoted because, as noted previously, it is a story element.
-- George Krashos
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 07:40:25
The plot device got tied into game rules the moment they published an official spell description.
If it was left vague and nebulous, like Szass Tam's Dread Ring ritual, then it would be subject to speculation instead of rules analysis. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 07:38:02
I don't think Manshoon's clone genealogy is specified in lore. I perceive the majority being created by a single Manshoon (with, say, CON 17 because the "original" statted Manshoon was likely himself a clone). Of course things get a little disordered when Manshoon doesn't "update" all of his clones, then some of these don't have knowledge of other clones, and from time to time they clone themselves. I assume that after the so-called Manshoon Wars, each of the surviving clones began to clone themselves independently, leading to a hopelessly tangled forest of parallel/simultaneous Manshoon trees from mixed generations. There must be a (not too far off) point where Manshoons with pathetic CON stats begin to suffer chronic Raistlin-like weakness and fragility ... this mighty archmage of Faerūn might be decaying from his flawed version of immortality, vulnerable to being slain by an overspiced meal or a common cold. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 07:34:17
Manshoon and his clones is a plot device. Ed has said so. When he was plotting "Spellfire", TSR wanted Manshoon killed in the novel but "not killed" as he was too good a bad guy character to kill off. Stasis clone was the answer.
Given that it is a plot device relating to an NPC, why in the heck would you try and tie it into the game rules?
-- George Krashos
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| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 07:12:48
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One thing which nagged me since I first read the stasis clone description years ago. It is "identical to the clone spell in every way, except ... (etc)". An important detail of the clone spell is that the clone itself has one point less CON than the original, and this particular detail is overlooked in the stasis clone description.
Permanently losing a point of CON in 2E was significant, you'd either lose a precious HP-per-die bonus or become increasingly wimpy (as if wizards having a 1d4 Hit Die wasn't bad enough). Plus of course many of the most potent spells (notably permanency) added to permanent CON losses.
What this means in 2E game terms is that each of Manshoon's clones should be a little less sturdy and viable than the one which created it. Manshoon's 2E stats from Ruins of Zhentil Keep list CON 16, which is fairly impressive but imposes a limit of 15 progressively weaker clone generations. (I'm unaware of published 1E stats, aside from FR0 listing Manshoon as M16, which isn't sufficient level to cast 9th level stasis clone.) Unless Manshoon has some method circumventing or restoring his lost CON?
I guess I'd always interpreted that most of the clones were spawned from the original (or at least an early generation copy), so the constitution loss was not significant. I didn't think every clone was a copy of the previous clone. Is that specifically contradicted somewhere?
Cheers |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 03:07:02
One thing which nagged me since I first read the stasis clone description years ago. It is "identical to the clone spell in every way, except ... (etc)". An important detail of the clone spell is that the clone itself has one point less CON than the original, and this particular detail is overlooked in the stasis clone description.
Permanently losing a point of CON in 2E was significant, you'd either lose a precious HP-per-die bonus or become increasingly wimpy (as if wizards having a 1d4 Hit Die wasn't bad enough). Plus of course many of the most potent spells (notably permanency) added to permanent CON losses.
What this means in 2E game terms is that each of Manshoon's clones should be a little less sturdy and viable than the one which created it. Manshoon's 2E stats from Ruins of Zhentil Keep list CON 16, which is fairly impressive but imposes a limit of 15 progressively weaker clone generations. (I'm unaware of published 1E stats, aside from FR0 listing Manshoon as M16, which isn't sufficient level to cast 9th level stasis clone.) Unless Manshoon has some method circumventing or restoring his lost CON? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 02:03:07
Manshoon (and his stasis clone spell) were around long before the Time of Troubles (and are still around long after the Spellplague), so Mystra-1 had more access to Manshoon than Mystra-2 did.
But the point is moot, Mystra can permit or deny or change any magic in the Realms on a whim. Azuth, god of wizards and spellcasting, who serves Mystra directly, knows every spell known to any mage in the Realms. Mystra wouldn't require mortal (or Chosen) agencies to disperse the stasis clone spell. In fact, she could command her Magister to impose an indefinite Toril-wide ban on the spell if she chose.
I'd personally say Chosen do not (and perhaps cannot) use stasis clone. True, there's no canon which says otherwise (except for frequent mention of Manshoon guarding the spell jealously and destroying any who attempt to duplicate it). But there's also no canon to support the claim (except for Chosen being nigh-indestructible godlike munchkins). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Feb 2013 : 01:04:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
My thought process as far as cloning the chosen ran more along these lines:
Mystra always seems to know when she's going to die, so she must have seen the spellplague coming. She also could have forseen the deaths of whichever chosen/favored spellcasters die as a result. She could therefore have said, "hey Simbul, take in manshoon, learn his clone spell, make a clone of these people (including yourself) and hide them in this location." She could even have told her precisely what event should trigger their activation. (Some event in the not so distant future after Ed's last book). Then all of a sudden she's back at full strength and she has her Chosen to help her set things to order as she sees fit.
OR - some other powerful, masked spellcaster who forsaw the events of the spellplague might have discretely arranged the same solution on his own :D
Bear in mind, this Mystra had only held her position 27 years before croaking. The other Mystra and Mystryl had had millenia to discover their powers. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 00:53:44
My thought process as far as cloning the chosen ran more along these lines:
Mystra always seems to know when she's going to die, so she must have seen the spellplague coming. She also could have forseen the deaths of whichever chosen/favored spellcasters die as a result. She could therefore have said, "hey Simbul, take in manshoon, learn his clone spell, make a clone of these people (including yourself) and hide them in this location." She could even have told her precisely what event should trigger their activation. (Some event in the not so distant future after Ed's last book). Then all of a sudden she's back at full strength and she has her Chosen to help her set things to order as she sees fit.
OR - some other powerful, masked spellcaster who forsaw the events of the spellplague might have discretely arranged the same solution on his own :D |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Feb 2013 : 00:30:36
Really? People have been espousing that so long I had always assumed it was canon. I never even questioned it.
You learn something new everyday. If thats not it, then I wonder what did trigger it? Elminster in a pissy mood?
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
2) How do we know they haven't? There might indeed be a dozen backup Elminsters, seven Simbuls running around, and an army of
That wouldn't make much sense because El wouldn't struggle to get a new body, the simbul not with her sanity and if other choosen where still alive El would have known and get them to help him in the recent events
UNLESS they know something nearly everyone else doesn't - that a clone isn't really the same person at all.
After all, would you risk it? @#$%! my clone... I want to live! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 21:29:39
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
To my mind the Vampshoon trigger was a poorly reasoned and implausible mechanism. Worse, it's one that ambitious players might attempt to reproduce. Even complexities of lich undeath would be better than accidental vampire undeath. Might as well just say Manshoon suffers from a gypsy curse or a pair of wishes became tangled during an epic spell duel vs Elminster or something. At least the FR team didn't involve bored Faerūnian gods, for which I'm thankful. And they didn't completely kill Manshoon off, for which I am thankful.
Actually, the theory of a vampire being in the mix having caused the Manshoon Wars was never more than a theory, and I'm pretty sure Ed himself said it was wrong. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:36:32
To my mind the Vampshoon trigger was a poorly reasoned and implausible mechanism. Worse, it's one that ambitious players might attempt to reproduce. Even complexities of lich undeath would be better than accidental vampire undeath. Might as well just say Manshoon suffers from a gypsy curse or a pair of wishes became tangled during an epic spell duel vs Elminster or something. At least the FR team didn't involve bored Faerūnian gods, for which I'm thankful. And they didn't completely kill Manshoon off, for which I am thankful. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 18:19:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There is obviously some kind of supernatural correspondence between Manshoon's stasis clones. Enough for a flimsy supernatural event like vampirism to disrupt or "crash" the spell, but not enough to transfer or mirror the vampirism to other clones. Vampirism is a spiritual affliction which alters the body, mind, and soul.
That's a good point that vampirism didn't pass to all the clones, but we also have to remember that when the vampire Manshoon idea was created, the clones weren't linked and in order to be updated, Manshoon had to touch them. Then 3e came about and we have the soul leaving one body and going to the other. The people that wrote up the 3E version didn't take this change into account. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 09:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
2) How do we know they haven't? There might indeed be a dozen backup Elminsters, seven Simbuls running around, and an army of
That wouldn't make much sense because El wouldn't struggle to get a new body, the simbul not with her sanity and if other choosen where still alive El would have known and get them to help him in the recent events |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 05:46:42
If Mystra's Chosen (and their silverfire) could be duplicated by magics like stasis clone, then:
1) Why haven't they already done so? Elminster, at least, has likely had access to Manshoon's original spell ... and its effects are known well enough that any of the Chosen could've researched it themselves.
2) How do we know they haven't? There might indeed be a dozen backup Elminsters, seven Simbuls running around, and an army of Khelbens exploring other worlds and planes.
3) Stasis clone is "only" a 9th level spell, it may have no effect on Mystra's Chosen (they have been promoted from mortal to quasi-divinity). Or Mystra herself may not permit it - she's already had Magisters and Chosen go bad on her, an army of them would be dangerous. If Mystra allows the rules of magic on this spell to work on her immortal Chosen then it would also work on Chosen of other deities (who could copy armies of themselves).
4) The silverfire could be a manifestation of the chunk of divine energy entrusted to each "Shard of Mystra" (Chosen). This is likely a fixed amount which individual Chosen would be loathe to dilute and partition across multiple copies of themselves. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 05:29:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They've already raped the hell out of Gygax's creations to create their own 'non-setting' of Nentir Vale.
Thus taking away any credit the man was due. 
I look at it this way - I'd rather grab a piece of that setting for ourselves before it winds up in Nerath with all the other old-school stuff.
In 4e, Nentir Vale Killed Greyhawk and took its stuff (along with Mystara). I think E.G.G. is already rolling over in his grave.
As for Khelben Arunsun - I had always thought 'the elder' had no-name until after his nephew was born, but apparently I was wrong. Irregardless, the Khelben he is known as is NOT the Khelben he actually is. If his nephew truly did go to Greyhawk, then I'd rather see that nephew (be he Mordenkainen or not) show back up in FR in 5e, then the original return (because he DESERVES his final rest - he earned it). That way, we get back a Khelben - based on prior lore - rather then some sort of fan-inspired cheesy resurrection.
All IMHO, of course. I realize that a lot of FR fans aren't previous GH fans, as I am. It kills me Nentir Vale got all that great stuff and 4e FR got.... Aboleths. 
Can't say I know anything about Nentir Vale, which I'm assuming is more 4th ed junk. I don't think Gary would mind using his stuff, either way, TBH - he always seemed like a cool old guy. I just dislike the idea of financial interests taking the creative work of someone after they die, changing it however they want to suit their desires, and trying to profit from it.
Its ghoulish and ought not be allowed.
I feel the same way about the Hobbit movies, but THAT is another kettle of fish :D |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 05:17:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Why not assume it? Because its up to the god (AKA DM). It could be, but doesn't have to be by any stretch of imagination.
Because FR pulls 'double duty'
I love hearing about all the crazy stuff people do in their campaigns - I've mangled the hell out of it myself. When it comes to the game, I would say nothing is too sacred to mess with. However, the canon setting is the one the stories take place in (both novel and source), and thats the one that has to keep from becoming too 'comic bookish' (or like a Soap Opera, where a person's body is NEVER found... because they may want to bring the character back 20 years from now).
Permanent Deaths are poignant. Temporary deaths detract from the heroism involved (IMHO).
If they brought EVERYONE back, as a DM, I would love it. As a reader... well... I wouldn't BE a reader anymore. If I want them to come back in my game I can do that, but I don't want THEM to do that.
You wouldn't bring back everyone who gets killed, just the interesting ones that get killed. No one seemed too upset when they resurrected Fflar, made him an elf (I had always thought the name sounded more human - a northerner perhaps), and had him become a general in a new war.
Similarly, I'd reiterate my opinion that they should stop killing off the big names. If you need someone to die, create a character for that purpose. Don't take long term NPCs and offer them up to your need for flare.
All of this is, of course, IMHO too :P |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 04:52:34
After thinking about the silver fire question, this is what I've reasoned out.
As to the idea that Silver Fire is linked to the spirit, I'd say not, based almost entirely on Symrustar in Ed's recent novel. Her spirit is not destroyed when she runs out of power to give El, just her life and ability to be restored (very much like someone who has been killed by one of the magics that makes resurrection impossible). Her spirit is now in the afterlife but her life-force is gone. Similarly, Silver Fire normally sustains the life force of Chosen but they can be killed through violence, at which point their spirit and the silver fire are divided.
Stasis clone is essentially two spells merged into one - temporal stasis and clone (with some additional modifications, like the updating mentioned earlier). The clone part of the spell is over right away once it is created; the being should be physically identical to the original. The temporal stasis portion of the spell is lingering, until deactivated by some other means (like contingency spells).
This being the case, I'd argue that the clone would have the CAPACITY to receive silver fire, just like the Chosen it duplicates, but it would be an empty vessel in that regard. From Ed's books we have seen that Chosen have a finite amount of silver fire in a given time, and possess the ability to transfer that silver fire between them. For this reason, I'd imagine that it would be possible for a Chosen create a stasis clone, then to transfer some of their Silver Fire into the vessel, thereby making it possible for a newly activated clone to have Silver Fire.
However, I maintain that whether the Clone is "Chosen" by Mystra when it awakens is entirely up to her, and if it is not the Clone would not be able to replenish its supply of silver fire.
This idea could make Manshoon's strategy of suicide attacks against powerful enemies in insanely powerful tactic. Imagine having to face not one Simbul in a row, but a dozen who heedlessly wade into battle flinging silver fire, only to die, then be replaced by another, and another, and another - each having been filled up with silver fire earlier (very much like whorlflames of spellfire, for those who have Volo's Guide to All Things Magical).
However, maybe this use of silver fire would offend Mystra and would get the Chosen "un-chosen" :P... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 03:37:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My understanding is that Manshoon's's's stasis clone spell has already been halted; it is no longer in effect, although the clones it created continue to exist. So I see each clone an isolated individual, no longer bound by the parameters of the stasis clone magic. Clones are alive and self-sustaining, without need of magic.
(It also appears these clones are not all insane, suggesting Manshoon somehow corrected or circumvented the insanity side effect of the typical clone spell ... although arguments can be made vs Cloneshoon sanity.)
Again, though, silverfire is not just another spell or feat a mage can pick up in the lab. It's a gift from the gods, it can be given freely or with whatever conditions the gods desire, it can be limited or taken away at their whim.
It's a gift from one god, and Ed has indicated that Mystra can't directly take it back.
Here's another way of looking at it: would mortal magic be sufficient to transfer a piece of divinity that even the providing deity can't touch? |
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