| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:51:56
I have been reading an old FR sourcebook i recently acquired - Anauroch.
In it it mentions the deities of the Bedine.
At'ar (Amaunator)
Kozah
Elah
N'asr
Now im assuming all these deities correspond to ancient Netherese deities that existed at the time Netheril fell and for as long as the Survivor States of Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath lasted since the Bedine are survivors from these 3 kingdoms.
At'ar is stated as being Amaunator who i know as being an ancient netherese deity.
The others; Elah, Kozah, Elah, and N'asr are approximated to existing realms deities, some of whom could not have existed in Netherese times.
Im just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on which ancient Netherese gods the remaining Bedine gods represent.
I vaguely remember Kozah appearing in Baldur's Gate as an avatar of a god of destruction so i assume he was an ancient netherese deity in his own right that must have been replaced by Talos at some point.
Elah is supposed to be Selune now and Selune has existed since the dawn of time in FR so i would assume Elah is some derivative of a Netherese name for Selune.
N'asr is supposedly the god of the dead (which was Cyric at the time of the book). Im not sure when Myrkul ascended but i think Jergal would have been the god of the dead for some of the Netherese period so is N'asr supposed to represent this god, how could his name have become twisted into N'asr.
Then there are the Bedine stories surrounding the gods. I remember reading that the Bedine turned from Amaunator because his clergy became ruthless and uncaring dictators of the survivor states and were unable to help halt the spread of Anauroch. The Bedine however believe that At'ar is lawfully married to Talos but forsakes him every night to dwell with N'asr.
Could this reflect divine alliances that occured towards the end of the reign of Netheril or the survivor states. If Amaunator was a dwindling power in the time of the survivor states and Anauroch was encroaching ever closer could it be that in an act of desperation he allied himself with Kozah (a god of destruction) in an effort to end such destruction, or does it reflect the people's attitudes towards the gods Amaunator and Kozah viewing them both as evil uncaring destructive powers that must be natural allies. The myth of At'ar choosing to leave for N'asr's tent may represent the eventual demise and death of Amaunator and the survivor states.
Just a few thoughts, would like to hear if anyone has any other ideas or information on Netherese gods. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 21:47:31
Shar does have an advantage of sorts which the Shadovar could leverage. Simply put: Shar can gain power through faithful believers (just like any other power) ... but Shar can also gain power through the suffering, loss, and destruction of those who refuse to convert willingly.
I'm of the opinion that the Shadovar have (at least so far) largely ignored the Bedine. The Bedine basically have no real magic, no allies nor patrons, no territories of any importance, and no military might to resist being pushed out of any territories they might claim. Just a bunch of subsistence-level savage types who harmlessly squat on land of little value. At least when looked at from the viewpoint of the Shades.
Elah would probably be particularly sacred to the Bedine if she is an Eldath-like water goddess. And the power of burning At'ar would not be questioned. I doubt any Bedine clerics exist for the other gods they recognize, regardless whether or not they receive magical power. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 14:58:31
Given the Bedine culture i think it unlikely that they would adopt a new god willingly as they are described as very traditional, also it does not look like they worship the gods all that ferverently, they are certainly distrustful of magic in any form so a priest would be unwelcome at best.
If they would not convert willingly then the Shadovar would have to force them to worship Shar and it is unlikely that they would submit to Shadovar rule (they would rather die to a man woman and child if necessary than become slaves as is stated so often in the Anauroch sourcebook. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 09:42:07
Only as additional reference, the goddess of the moon (and beauty) in Zhakara is named Selam, IIRC, and this name resembles me either of Selūne and Elah, don't you think that?  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 00:28:09
quote:
Razz
I have the official deity aliases of the ones the OP mentions:
N'asr is actually an alias of Myrkul. Can't remember where I found that, but trust me, it was said in an FR sourcebook (might have been F&A).
At'ar is, we all know, Amaunator.
Kozah is Talos
Elah is Selune.
Kozah is identified as Talos (same god different name, not some usurper of the portfolio) in the Arcane Ages material.
Myrkul is/was a comparatively "new" god ascended as one of the three Dead Gods who replaced Jergal. I wonder if the conservative Bedine peoples worship only the ancient gods or if they've "kept up" with the divine musical chairs game that's played throughout the rest of Faerūn.
Elah is identified (in Cormanthyr, I think) as another name for Eldath, although she does seem to share some aspect with Selūne. I would think of her as a kind of hybrid diety/aspect local to the Anauroch, something like the Moonshae Earth Mother (Chauntea).
It could almost be argued that the Bedine gods are only diefied aspects of the four Elemental Lords, perhaps even a bunch of jumped up genies.
I suspect the Bedine gods would be influenced more by the (now defunct?) pantheons of Zakhara and perhaps even Mulhorand than those of ancient Netheril.
On that note, I wonder how many may have been converted by the Shadovar to worship some aspect of Shar. |
| Razz |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 03:36:39
I have the official deity aliases of the ones the OP mentions:
N'asr is actually an alias of Myrkul. Can't remember where I found that, but trust me, it was said in an FR sourcebook (might have been F&A).
At'ar is, we all know, Amaunator.
Kozah is Talos
Elah is Selune. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 15:59:25
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
In one of the harpers novels N'Asr is a god of the dead associated with vultures. Elah is Eldath.
I guess the novel is Parched Sea? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 08:20:40
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
as for Jergal....... there are some ndas on that one........ one in paticular deals with his appearance and the look of another creature in the realms.....
What Ed had to say on the issue of Jergal, back in 2010:-
quote:
Ed just sent me another e-mail, in which he regretfully noted that Jergal is too NDA'd for him to say much about Jergal's mortal existence before ascension. However, he added this enigmatic comment:
Much has yet to be revealed about the spellweaver race and about the racial past/development of the thri-kreen. Both of which have a connection to Jergal (in one case to his mortal self AND his divine self, and in the other only to his divine self).
There. NDAs avoided by one of deftest dances I've had to do in a long time. :}
So saith Ed. Who promises a reply to Joran re paladinhood, next.
love,
THO
|
| sfdragon |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 06:09:41
as for Jergal....... there are some ndas on that one........ one in paticular deals with his appearance and the look of another creature in the realms.....
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 05:06:07
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Second, the 'current' Bedine are actually a group compromised of the original (Zakharan?) Bedine and Netherese Survivors.
The Lady Hooded One provided a little tidbit on this, back in August of 2008:-
quote:
If I recall correctly, Jeff Grubb went through Ed's ANAUROCH FR accessory and talked with Ed about which spells and Bedine elements could readily be used in the new "Arabian Adventures" setting (Al-Qadim), and (as Sage mentions) the link was then 'reverse-engineered' to loosely link Zakhara to Faerun (rather more adroitly than some of the other "chunks of real-world or Hollywood version thereof" elements were tied to Ed's root Realms).
love to all,
THO
|
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:36:39
In one of the harpers novels N'Asr is a god of the dead associated with vultures. Elah is Eldath. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 17:47:43
First, I recall some sort of theory that Talos was one half of a more ancient 'ravager god' - something to do with Garagos.
Second, the 'current' Bedine are actually a group compromised of the original (Zakharan?) Bedine and Netherese Survivors. We have at least two disparate pieces of canon in this regard; one states they came to Anauroch after the fall of Netheril, and other stating they came before the fall. I used to have the precise locations for those lore-bits in my notes, but alas, those notes are gone now.
I rectify (as in, "my own, peersonal, non-canon solution") that by saying that the Bedine were lead through a portal by Fate, who foresaw the plight of the Netherese and sent the Bedine to help them "learn the ways of the desert". This means that the Bedine were indeed sent to Anauroch just prior to the fall (to live in the areas that had already turned to desert), but the purpose of their arrival did not become apparent until after Netheril fell. This means nearly all 'High Netherese' would have been unaware of the Bedine presence until after the sky-enclaves fell (which fixes the lore gaff).
The Bedine history thus winds-up being a garbled amalgam of Netherese survivor history and legends from their homeland. I also have another Zakhara-specific bit where their legends tell of a 'lost tribe' of blessed nomads. It is said they were chosen to perform a "great holy work for the gods", and when their task is complete they will return to Zakhara to be one with the land again. I wrote that before the 4e lore kinda nerfed that bit.
EDIT: A gate to Zakhara is not only likely, it becomes a necessity if one wants logic to prevail. Whether you want to accept that the Bedine hailed from Zakhara or not, there are NUMEROUS desert creatures living in Anauroch - far too many to have evolved there in so short a time (not to mention the fact that they are identical to species found in Zakhara and elsewhere). This means that either the Zakharan (or possibly Quoya) gate still exists and is hidden, mobile, or intermittent. It must be large enough for many forms of life to pass through without notice, especially if you assume at least one entire tribe of Bedine did so.
Personally, I go with the 'mobile gate' theory, because it ties into my other musings concerning Zakhara and The Scattering of Fate.
There is also a canon gate to Krynn in Anauroch, although I am pretty sure the Bedine didn't come from there. Perhaps the escaping gnomes created that one....  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 14:33:25
I suppose i took the Bedine myth from the Anauroch book too literally when thinking about their origins.
In Anauroch it states
"Bedine myth holds that there were once Three Ancient Tribes of Bedine. The sheikhs of these three tribes dreamed of ruling all the peopie, and so they had their sorcerers summon Nasrs djinn to make war upon each other.
The war destroyed the land and gave birth to Anauroch. It took the gods themselves to set the world right again, and some of them died before the carnage could be stopped. The surviving gods scattered the Three Tribes to the corners of the world and forbade them ever to use magic again."
The similarities between that myth and the ending of Netheril and the formation and destruction of the 3 survivor states seemed too similar to assume the myth was not grounded in the history of the region.
Hence i thought the 3 survivor states were the 3 tribes. Couldnt figure out how the Djinn came into it but i figured that was just their word for anything evil that happened. The death of the gods i figured was a reference to the Dawn Cataclysm that happened around that time.
It would not be unreasonable to assume that some people survived from all 3 survivor states' destruction and chose not to leave their lands, or could not leave. I agree most probably would leave for better lands but there are always a few nutters who wont listen to reason. For instance a few people on the borders of Asram could have escaped the plague, or even people living in Anauria or Hlondath but considered themselves Asramite. As the creep of the desert was gradual people would have remained on the border of the desert and kept moving with it gradually learning to live with and within the desert.
I didnt know about the Zakhara link but i guess the mercenaries from Zakhara arrived in Anauroch via who then mingled/conquered the pre Bedine people to give the Arabian influenced tribes that live there today. If they were the conquerors then that explains why the customs and language are heavily Arabian influenced and not Netherese in nature as its likely the conquered Netherese remnants were forced to practice the rulers ways.
Assuming that Zakhara like Arabian myth contains lots of Djinni then when the mercenaries came through the portal and conquered the remnants of the survivor states (probably on the borders of the desert), they would have summoned Djinn to combat some of the remaining wizards from the survivor states.
That probably explains the Djinni reference in the origin myth. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 09:32:13
quote:
Also from the Netheril box, one of Jergal's names is Nakasr (page 40). As to how you get Nakasr from Jergal... no idea, but there was a pattern of Netherese names looking very different from their translations into other languages: Akintaer/Quagmire, Orbedal/Sanctuary, etc.
Well, from Nakasr you can get N'asr, and the connection with death remains.
I also seem to recall the Bedine coming via portals from Zakhara. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 09:30:59
I think I've seen another reference somewhere, but here I post an excerpt from the 2e sourcebook "Gold & Glory", on an Anauroch-based mercenary company called "The Sirocco":
"There are rumors of a land in the
far, far south, where there exist civilizations
of great glory and might, and where
the people live and have always lived in
peace and prosperity.
The Sirocco claim to be from the far
southern lands, beyond even the Great
Sea south of Halruaa. Little is known of
their past, except that they entered the
north a dozen years ago.
After accepting mercenary jobs in the
Shaar and in the Old Empires, they eventually
arrived in Anauroch, where they
quickly carved a life from the hostile
sands.
The Sirocco have none of the strange
prejudices that mark many of the tribes of
Anauroch; all races are welcome as long
as they pay due homage to the true gods.
(...)
If the Arabian Adventures
book is available, use the Desert
Rider kit to define every member of the
Sirocco" |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:17:51
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
since the Bedine are survivors from these 3 kingdoms.
Just saw this part. I'm not so sure this is the case. Grand History states that there were no survivors of the plague that ended Asram in -33 DR. Anauria was conquered by the goblins of Hlundadim, and I don't have a source for this part but I'm sure the surviving humans left the area. GHotR also states that the survivors of Hlondath's ill-fated attempt to ignore the growing desert moved east to the Moonsea and the Dalelands.
The first of the Bedine, from my (admittedly sourceless right now) understanding, probably arrived in Anauroch after the sand had already covered everything, through one-way portals that opened up from somewhere in Zakhara. I'll try to find specific sources. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:06:17
I love the Anauroch book; it's still one of my favorites, along with Old Empires.
Kozah is listed as a deity in the Netheril box, but I didn't find any mention of Talos. I think the connection between them was first made in the Anauroch book. They "feel" like different deities to me, but perhaps it's the same entity known by different names in different cultures.
Elah is given as one of Selune's names in the Netheril box (page 51) so the connection there is pretty direct.
Also from the Netheril box, one of Jergal's names is Nakasr (page 40). As to how you get Nakasr from Jergal... no idea, but there was a pattern of Netherese names looking very different from their translations into other languages: Akintaer/Quagmire, Orbedal/Sanctuary, etc.
Beshaba uses the name Shaundakul among the Bedine... she behaves like she does in the rest of the Realms, but the misfortune she brings gets blamed on the name Shaundakul. He is understandably displeased. (3e FR setting page 251) I don't think either of them is mentioned at all in the Anauroch book.
Aaannd the Bedine speak Midani, which is the common language of Zakhara. (3e FR setting page 85 and also Races of Faerun page 110 under the Anauroch region).
I also remember N'asr being mentioned in connection with Zakhara... hm...
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 14:52:50
The 2e Netheril boxed set says that Kozah is indeed Talos, but they don't have Elah (they have Selūne with the name we know) nor N'asr (that I thought was he name of a Zakharan god, but I was mistaken). However, there are references saying that the Bedine have a Zakharan origin. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 11:42:14
I think I remember Beshaba being revered by the Bedines, but it is probably from a 3rd edition sourcebook. No clue about the Netherese gods. |
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