| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 16:11:58
I recently re-read Richard Lee Byers undead trilogy and i was moved by Bareris' dedication to find a way to redeem his vampire lover Tammith and this has made me wonder whether this is possible.
Remembering that bit from the chaos curse where Cadderly destroys the vampire Histra he notices that she repents at her moment of death and is believes that she is forgiven and embraced by the goddess Sune.
As a non-Realms example in the recent film Dark Shadows Barnabas Collins desires that the witch Angelique Bouchard grant him his humanity back.
Obviously the more vile and corrupt undead like dream vestiges and zombies cannot be saved but is redemption possible for the more intelligent forms of undead like vampires and liches? And if they cannot be saved in mortal coil then can they be rescued on a spiritual level? If so then what measures could be taken to that effect?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 03:10:51
No. No, I don't have a problem with elven "high magic " powering undead. I said as much, several times in fact. What my problem is saying that "high magic" is it and the end of it.
And frankly I don't see how I can say this any otherway where you can see it. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 02:47:43
-Alright, as long as Spellfire and/or Silverfire, also "basic" magical energies, are in the same category as Elven High Magic.
-Ultimatley, it comes down to preference, or detail. I don't see anything inherently problematic with something as generic as 'magical energy', or whatever else we can call it, being the most basic fuel powering Undead, or other spells/items/creatures. You do. C'est la vie. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 00:12:28
This might be an issue of my screen-reader, but I don’t quite understand what you are asking here. Let me take a stabe at it though, and you can tell me if I am kind of on the mark, or way out there. Let’s take spellfire for a moment, to my knowledge it’s a powerful energy force, that represents either some of the weave in it’s rawest form, or some of Mystra’s power given to mortles. I don’t have access to Elmenster the making of a mage, or the Temptation at the moment, but I seem to remember it as the former over the latter. Now, holding that as our Primace A, that Spellfire is indeed power given by Mystra, we can see that the catalyst for it is that is a devine power, that is capable of being used as a catalyst to bring about varying results. Let’s look at one of those for a moment.
In the Temptation of Elmenster, El, gets frozen place, only to have the spell broken by a group of adventurers. As he’s coming back down from hanging in mid-air, beholder eyes start shotting at him. He then uses Spellfire to perform to actions, the first is to destroy the beholder eyes, in this case it serves as an extremely potent magical force, not unlike very intense magical fire; he also, if I remember correctly, uses it to heal himself from the damage he’d taken from the beholders.
Now, let’s look at what we have hear. We have a magical force, which we can describe where it comes from; we can describe elements of it’s nature; we can see it’s form as a point by which something is being done, and even to some extent how it does it. Is this complete? Not hardly, but it’s a line of demarcation, delination, argumentation. Now, if, using my example, Ed had just said it was done with spellfire, then I’d have the same issue that I’ve already raised with “high magic”. Do you understand what I am getting at now, just a little?
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 21:18:38
-I'm afraid it's not. Would Spellfire or Silverfire, also just "magic" cause problems as well as an explanation? |
| Sightless |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 14:53:45
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
It's a prosses of logical argumentation, by which the prosses of conclusion follos from primace. Saying high elven magic is the way of an event in of itself, is not an argumentation in any form.
-That's limiting the High Magic artificially. It need not be only an singular event, as we see in the case of Baelnorn, mythals and other effects.
There's a lot I can say here, but I wont. Instead, I'm going to ask you for a favor, it's a simple one really; explain?
If you can come up with an explanation for the statement given above; I can only state that I shall listen with an open mind and admit that there's a possibility that you might be right, although at the moment, I can't see how the statement stands.
-The physical act of casting an Elven High Magic spell is not the end of it (like various other spells). In terms of Baelnorn, the magic continues perpetuating and "fueling" the creature, as it continues perpetuating and "fueling" a mythal, and other things.
So it is with positive energy and soul magic. However, what you said doesn't actually answer my question.
Let me phrase it this way then:
How does delinating a process by which something occurs by which "high Magic" is the catalist, or tool, or form, depending on how it is used, limit the nature of that magic?
On the surfice it is similar to saying that describing how particles works limits the nature of energy flow, which in science it doesn't. Does my question make more sense now? Let's begin again, shall we. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 02:45:19
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
It's a prosses of logical argumentation, by which the prosses of conclusion follos from primace. Saying high elven magic is the way of an event in of itself, is not an argumentation in any form.
-That's limiting the High Magic artificially. It need not be only an singular event, as we see in the case of Baelnorn, mythals and other effects.
There's a lot I can say here, but I wont. Instead, I'm going to ask you for a favor, it's a simple one really; explain?
If you can come up with an explanation for the statement given above; I can only state that I shall listen with an open mind and admit that there's a possibility that you might be right, although at the moment, I can't see how the statement stands.
-The physical act of casting an Elven High Magic spell is not the end of it (like various other spells). In terms of Baelnorn, the magic continues perpetuating and "fueling" the creature, as it continues perpetuating and "fueling" a mythal, and other things. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:58:00
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I would've thought the same, although the elven way (as I see it) doesn't involve "human" notions like magical elixirs and books, elves would somehow commune with and transfer their aging to an immortal tree/garden, or live within the "ageless zone" created by a mythal (incidentally, Myth Drannor had this effect).
They interact with humans (often in disguise) to have learned of such way to immortality.
Undeath and lichdom used to be a strange notion to them. But their exposure to the 'outside world' rectified that.
Still, I don't why they would resort to undeath, when much of their magic is linked to the magic of life. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 23:58:53
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
It's a prosses of logical argumentation, by which the prosses of conclusion follos from primace. Saying high elven magic is the way of an event in of itself, is not an argumentation in any form.
-That's limiting the High Magic artificially. It need not be only an singular event, as we see in the case of Baelnorn, mythals and other effects.
There's a lot I can say here, but I wont. Instead, I'm going to ask you for a favor, it's a simple one really; explain?
If you can come up with an explanation for the statement given above; I can only state that I shall listen with an open mind and admit that there's a possibility that you might be right, although at the moment, I can't see how the statement stands. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 14:32:39
And, far more amusingly, most sentient undead (I doubt it's appliable to liches, for example) have a chance to become Darklights by freak accident. 
Speaking of which, "Undead" as a classification is kind of weak. "Undead [Ethereal]" / "Undead [Negative]" / "Undead [Positive]" would be more meaningful. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 21:05:08
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
It's a prosses of logical argumentation, by which the prosses of conclusion follos from primace. Saying high elven magic is the way of an event in of itself, is not an argumentation in any form.
-That's limiting the High Magic artificially. It need not be only an singular event, as we see in the case of Baelnorn, mythals and other effects. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 21:11:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right, but here's my thinking (I realize the above explanation is very convoluted):
1) An Elf agrees to being a Baelnorn when it dies, and then it dies a natural death (and I suppose the choice is still open, if they 'ask the gods' after they die).
2) A vessel is prepared: The dead elf's body is reanimated (which doesn't have to be necromancy - a very simple animate object spell with permanency works here). This also means that it is possible for another body to be prepared, if the elf's body is not intact or recoverable.
3) The spirit is 'summoned' and bound to an object - the object being the animated corpse. As a a spirit, it possesses the animated body and uses it.
Kinda simple and elegant, no? You completely bypass the positive energy/negative energy question - it becomes purely mechanical (and since the spirit - and 'the gods', presumably) are in agreement with this ritual, there is no evil intent. Magic is only used to animate the lifeless body of the dead elf, to replace the missing animus.
A resurrection spell would be able to restore the lifeforce itself, but I think that would be very painful, and possibly be thwarted by the 'spritual' nature of the elf's return. I think ressurection should be anethema to elves (who believe in the great balance, which includes the cycle of life and death). Its basically their work-around for their own religous beliefs.
I suppose Eberron's deathless elves would be made much the same way, but I don't know enough about them to make that call.
Argumentation provided, problem solved. And to answer your question, the process is the same except positive energy is used instead of negative energy. the process is relatively identical.
Let me be doubly clear. My problem isn't with an elven high magical ritual process for creating "undead", it is using "high magic" as the sole explanation. The same would hold if someone just said it was "negative energy", with any argument for the process in which said "negative energy" was said to keep the undead functioning. Clear? |
| Sightless |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 21:05:48
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
No. so far, all forms of undead are powered with either positive, or negative energy. Constructs are powered by elemental spirits. this is a viable explanation, just saying it's magic, or high magic is not an explanation. I'm undead, because I'm undead, but I'm not like any other undead thus far.
well how are you undead?
it's magic.
Sorry, this just doesn't fly for me.
-You accept Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Elemental spirits bound into a physical body, Incarnum, or other things, but not Elven High Magic?
It's a prosses of logical argumentation, by which the prosses of conclusion follos from primace. Saying high elven magic is the way of an event in of itself, is not an argumentation in any form. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 15:12:10
I would've thought the same, although the elven way (as I see it) doesn't involve "human" notions like magical elixirs and books, elves would somehow commune with and transfer their aging to an immortal tree/garden, or live within the "ageless zone" created by a mythal (incidentally, Myth Drannor had this effect).
An undead guardian does allow the installation of nasty life-detection or life-triggered wards, anti-life fields, etc etc. The sorts of dark necromantic stuff I wouldn't normally associate with elves. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 03:20:44
Since the elves are averse to undeath, why then resort to a lichdom-like process to create baelnorns? Isn't it more practical to create some sort of an elixir of life to prolong their already long existence to do whatever duty they have to finish before their final rest? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 19:24:04
Right, but here's my thinking (I realize the above explanation is very convoluted):
1) An Elf agrees to being a Baelnorn when it dies, and then it dies a natural death (and I suppose the choice is still open, if they 'ask the gods' after they die).
2) A vessel is prepared: The dead elf's body is reanimated (which doesn't have to be necromancy - a very simple animate object spell with permanency works here). This also means that it is possible for another body to be prepared, if the elf's body is not intact or recoverable.
3) The spirit is 'summoned' and bound to an object - the object being the animated corpse. As a a spirit, it possesses the animated body and uses it.
Kinda simple and elegant, no? You completely bypass the positive energy/negative energy question - it becomes purely mechanical (and since the spirit - and 'the gods', presumably) are in agreement with this ritual, there is no evil intent. Magic is only used to animate the lifeless body of the dead elf, to replace the missing animus.
A resurrection spell would be able to restore the lifeforce itself, but I think that would be very painful, and possibly be thwarted by the 'spritual' nature of the elf's return. I think ressurection should be anethema to elves (who believe in the great balance, which includes the cycle of life and death). Its basically their work-around for their own religous beliefs.
I suppose Eberron's deathless elves would be made much the same way, but I don't know enough about them to make that call. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:37:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if a Baelnorn is not a lich, but something lich-like?
-They really aren't Liches. I mean, they are, as that what the books say, but they like you point out, they don't match what the classic definition of Lich. Lich is the closest established monster that exists/existed that most closely mirrored what a Baelnorn is when they were inserted into D&D. Optimally, they'd have their own distinct stat block, that doesn't simplistically say they're Elven Liches. Elven Undead, yes. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:32:48
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
No. so far, all forms of undead are powered with either positive, or negative energy. Constructs are powered by elemental spirits. this is a viable explanation, just saying it's magic, or high magic is not an explanation. I'm undead, because I'm undead, but I'm not like any other undead thus far.
well how are you undead?
it's magic.
Sorry, this just doesn't fly for me.
-You accept Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Elemental spirits bound into a physical body, Incarnum, or other things, but not Elven High Magic? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 18:40:51
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
Isn't that the stuff they make Keebler cookies with?
Maybe a Baelnorn is just a life-sized gingerbread man. 
What if a Baelnorn is not a lich, but something lich-like? I have been using a certain logic to figure-out that most zombies aren't really undead at all - they are just animated corpses (same with skeletons). True undead are self-aware. Anyhow, continuing with this "its NOT Necromancy" train of thought...
We are aware of several types of 'spirit-binding' magics, used in everything from golems to certain magical devices and artifacts, and even locales. The lich is actually an example of this - its soul is bound to a phylactory. This separation of the soul from the body is what makes liches evil (I touched upon the proximity thing earlier). Without a soul, a creature becomes a sociopath (completely self-serving).
Anyhow, a Baelnorn doesn't undergo a lich ritual - in fact, all signs point to a normal death. What if elves who agree to this - either with Elven High Mages* or upon death when confronting their gods - die, and then their soul/spirit is sent back to their dead body? The body itself becomes their phylactory (ergo, no separation means no "automatic evil"). However, the body has lost its animus (life force), and THAT is what Elven Magic is 'propping up'.
So the soul (conscience) is there, as is the mind/spirit (consciousness), but the animus is missing, so it is a type of undead (at least one of the three must not be present to qualify). This would make it a very rare type of undead - a physical ghost, as it were. The difference between it an incorporeal undead is only that it permanently 'possesses' its own corpse, which is animated like a zombie - mere animation, not true undeath.
So more like a ghost possessing a body - in this case it's own dead body - then a lich.
*I think Elven High Magic is very similar to the old concept of Southern Magic, in that it is arcane magic combined with divine magic. This means that Elven High Mages are very much like Magi - priest-mages - and do arcane magic that is boosted/gifted by their gods. Its like Arcane magic requiring Faith as well as talent. I bring this up only because that would mean there is no real difference between high-Mages doing the Baelnorn-thing, and the departed asking this of their gods. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 18:00:06
Sigh... I remember when undead and dragon meant "evil", and knight meant "good". Even if there is a good intention, becoming an undead sounds unnatural to me. And working magic against natural forces of life and death used to have consequences. Old good times, before everything was relative and we needed so many monster manuals.  |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 11:43:08
Perhaps its a specialized branch of magic that was a gift from the elven gods. The ability to make 'good' undead would be quite a boon to any good aligned race after all. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 19:44:13
Deception for in game based elements may work just fine, but for mechanics issues it does not.
If you said they were powered by soul magic, then I could work with that.
Positive/ negative energy.
entrapping their souls in specially created magical crystals that meant that they could only be killed if the crystals were destroyed.
And/or by several other mechanical means, just don't say, "It's by magic" and expect me to say that works. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 17:06:32
Yes, but it's the same BS lines they used to feed humans before the Netherese stole their scrolls. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 23:29:37
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better?
No. so far, all forms of undead are powered with either positive, or negative energy. Constructs are powered by elemental spirits. this is a viable explanation, just saying it's magic, or high magic is not an explanation. I'm undead, because I'm undead, but I'm not like any other undead thus far.
well how are you undead?
it's magic.
Sorry, this just doesn't fly for me. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 22:53:35
-Well, sorry then. Does "it's Elven High Magic" make it any better? |
| Sightless |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 21:22:41
It's just magic... Yeah, I'm afraid I can't accept that. even if that is the canin answer. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 20:48:38
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Yeah, I would take anything the Elves say about how the Baelnorn are not liches as more Elven propoganda.
Could they have been a previous version of the undead made from positive energy? And if so, would they be considered as equivelent? I'd say yes, because the principle is the same, the medium differs that is all.
-Baelnorn are "powered" by the Elven High Magic that created them. It isn't Positive Energy, or Negative Energy (as most Undead are)- it's simply magic. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:38:02
Similarly, in Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician world (she never named that world, so we're left to calling it that, as that's the first trilogy in the series), black (or evil) magic is the new term for drawing energy from a living person. It was called 'higher magic' a long time ago, and practiced by masters with their apprentices, or in the Sachakans' case, with their slaves. But the Kyralian magicians who overused it prompted the then newly created Magician's Guild to ban it and call it black/evil. Same practice, same magic, but named differently---all because of how it's used. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:26:17
By the same token, pre-3e mummies (Ancient dead) were powered by positive energy, and the closest thing we have to that now is radiant energy.
The lesser types are more like greater zombies, so that could go either way, but the greater versions are definitely sentient, so I would say they are much more like Baelnorn (and should also be considered a sub-category of lich).
And since most of them are evil, then the energy involved actually has very little to do with their temperament.
IMHO, I think calling an energy source 'good' or 'evil' would be like calling a gun evil - its really all about intent (just like 'black magic' and 'white magic' - you can do good or evil with both).
Two major sources of power - one connected to creation, the other entropy. Its more like the magic in WoT, or even SoT (additive and subtractive magics). All other 'magics' are just different ways to utilize the two. Athas (Darksun) used the same paradigm as well. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:15:44
The question is, does it really matter which energy powers them? Not a few liches who are powered by negative energy turn out be more neutral than evil. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 17:16:51
Well, there are some evil undead powered by positive energy, IIRC. Mummies, maybe? |
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