| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 10:31:38
Hi All,
again a unnerving point for me in relmas-history.
In GHOTRand also the Novel "The Siege" and "The Sorcerer" it is stated that the Phaerimm led ARMIES of Bugbears and Lizardfolk against waterdeeps relief army as well as against evereska itself.
where did they grow this army? or recruit?
Lizardfolk can ( imho ) be easily found in greater numbers, but with bugbears??
These brutes are as a race not openly know as having the numbers to form armies.
Iknow they were pretty nasty in 2e, always bringing reinforcements in a neverending loop if desired... ( good old times... ) but armies of them?
In the entry on anauroch in elminsters eclologies, it is said that the beholders under anauroch ( which were allied with the thornbacks or even dominated ) scored vast numbers of humanoid slaves, but these being almost exclusively human nomads and hobgoblins from the tribes of the desert.
looking forward to youropinions and all relevant lore that might exist. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 01:32:24
Pretty much all the bugbears were mind-controlled by the illithids. So I doubt if there was any bargaining that's done. |
| Snow |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 00:34:20
Well, none of the various rule editions have shown a game-mechanic explanation of why a certain lower-tier (in terms of individual power & strategic usefulness) monstrous humanoid [i.e. the bugbear] is "easier" to create via Polymorph magic than the more combat-valuable monstrous humanoids in the Faerunian theatre. Keep in mind, Bugbears are nifty middle-tier combatants (kobolds, gobbos, orcs at the bottom rung). But when you have serious wiz/sorc spellcasters who are slinging transmutation polymorph magic en masse, there's a lot better conversion options than the lowly bugbear.
That's why I'm tending to think there's template-addition angle to the massed bugbear armies. It would make sense too. There are other planes where *ALL* the Faerunian races have higher demographic densities. High-level conjurers would know this. Via planar travel or divinatory magic, they can find large groups of nearly any race that would be amenable to mercenary work. Perhaps this large group of fiendish bugbears had a terrific bargaining price that gave the Phaerimm the most bang for the buck. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 22:53:02
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Or, who knows, those bugbears were actually different creatures (lesser and common) which the phaerimm polymorphed.
[snip]Unless it is somehow easier to "make" bugbears than some other monster.
Which was likely the case.
The beholders and illithids belong to the relatively higher echelon in the monsters' food chain. And some of them (that became the phaerimm's slaves) were probably polymorphed from lesser beings (If a Zulkir of Transmutation [Maligor] could transform a mere rodent into a ferocious beast, how much more a cabal of ancient spellcasters can do?). However, doing so could have depleted their magic at some point, and therefore resorted to transforming the rest of the lesser creatures into bugbears, which required lesser firepower and time. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 19:26:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Or, who knows, those bugbears were actually different creatures (lesser and common) which the phaerimm polymorphed.
If I was a Phaerimm, maybe I'd polymorph the lesser creatures into something more powerful or useful than bugbears (maybe minotaurs, or even something more magical or a creature that flies)... Unless it is somehow easier to "make" bugbears than some other monster. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 18:47:07
I had one player try something of the sort some years ago. Playing AD&D (1E), buying tons of live chickens (one gold piece would buy 200!), and casting polymorph other to turn them into more useful creatures. Even given a high mortality rate it still produces decent yields: even if you assume chickens have a CON score of only 3 then you could still expect 35% of them to survive their System Shock checks, the rest can be cooked for dinner. Although I can see it being important for your new bugbears to not have the minds of chickens, but it's only a matter of time before they fail their daily saves to resist mental polymorph (this didn't matter much to my player, since he was primarily attempting to harvest body parts of exotic creatures to use as potion components). Still, given large numbers of phaerimm, larger numbers of lowly victim beasts to cast spells upon, 1E rules, and a lot of time ... an army can be built from scratch. All the slots for spells of other levels might be used for more traditional conjuring and enchantment magics, plus any number of illusions to fortify the ranks. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 18:36:32
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Or, who knows, those bugbears were actually different creatures (lesser and common) which the phaerimm polymorphed.
-You know, that puts 'armies led by magicians' in a whole new perspective. Why bother with cannon fodder when plenty organizations have the capacity to transform them into much stronger things with relative ease. That "breaks the world", so to speak. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 03:03:50
Good point.
Or, who knows, those bugbears were actually different creatures (lesser and common) which the phaerimm polymorphed. |
| Snow |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 01:15:56
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
In GHOTRand also the Novel "The Siege" and "The Sorcerer" it is stated that the Phaerimm led ARMIES of Bugbears and Lizardfolk against waterdeeps relief army as well as against evereska itself.
where did they grow this army? or recruit?
Lizardfolk can ( imho ) be easily found in greater numbers, but with bugbears??
These brutes are as a race not openly know as having the numbers to form armies.
Here's another possible option:
The 3 book sources you listed above were accurate in that Bugbears were indeed staple components of the Phaerimm's invading armies. But perhaps they failed to mention that they were *Planar* bugbears. Borrowing the template descriptors from 3.5 ... perhaps they were Fiendish or Half-Fiendish Bugbears. Meaning that liberal usage of Planar Binding type spells (or unique spells that bring planar creatures to Faerun en masse) were used to heavily populate the ranks.
In essence, this means that the book's information lines were accurate ... just not fully descriptive.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:35:27
However, it's also possible he'd long ago observed how Galaeron fought, what his reflexes were when cornered or faced by foes. He spent centuries in that place, so it's not unlikely. Granted, Galaeron might do something different than Melegaunt expected, given a lot of factors not present when he previously observed the elf. But he knew and understood the risk. Life's a gamble most of the time. And he must have known that, too. Hence, he proceeded with his plans, despite the many things that could go wrong. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 15:46:12
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Ah you are right of course. I remembered the Vasaans rescueing Melegaunt from beeing trapped inside the sharn wall, but that wasn't the case.
No, he wasn't trapped. It's important to note that he's one of the world's greatest and subtlest manipulators. If he were trapped, the phaerimm could have feasted on him in mere seconds. His location and seeming impasse were all planned, so that elven wizards guarding the tomb near the Sharn Wall could hurl spells which would 'inadvertently' clash with his own, thereby punching a hole in the hole and freeing the phaerimm.
IIRC, that was intentionally left iffy. On the level of "was it a pure acident or a quickly grasped opportunity?", since Melegaunt said they planned to release phaerimm in a magic-weak area and when ready to cull the problem.
Planning this coincidence from the start would require a godlike level of prescience with godlike or better precision. For one, if Galaeron was out of magic missiles or chose to hurl an elemental spell instead, nothing would happen. If he was slightly less autious and more cowboy-ish and interfered before there was a complete passage, Melegaunt's shadowmagic won't clash with his at all. And so on. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 08:35:39
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
There where sarrukh trapped insinde the sharn wall?
I don't think so.
But that doesn't mean they haven't worked against them. They had, even outside the Sharn Wall, and those which were imprisoned were not the only ones they fought.
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Ah you are right of course. I remembered the Vasaans rescueing Melegaunt from beeing trapped inside the sharn wall, but that wasn't the case.
No, he wasn't trapped. It's important to note that he's one of the world's greatest and subtlest manipulators. If he were trapped, the phaerimm could have feasted on him in mere seconds. His location and seeming impasse were all planned, so that elven wizards guarding the tomb near the Sharn Wall could hurl spells which would 'inadvertently' clash with his own, thereby punching a hole in the hole and freeing the phaerimm. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 10:03:10
Ah you are right of course. I remembered the Vasaans rescueing Melegaunt from beeing trapped inside the sharn wall, but that wasn't the case. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 13:50:56
The wall prevents the physical entrance or leaving of non-phaerimm? I thought it doesn't, that's how the phaerimm inside could communicate with those outside, getting new spells, exchanging slaves and so on, as described in the Drizzt's Guide.
EDIT: Hey, there's another clue on where they could get bugbears, since slave trading WAS done, according to this book. Even though I haven't found references of bugbears around Myth Drannor and Cormanthor, at least. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 12:51:42
There where sarrukh trapped insinde the sharn wall? Didn't know that. What happened to them? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 12:41:32
The sarrukh for one.
-- George Krashos
|
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 11:43:21
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Because the phaerimm weren't operating and living in a vacuum. There were (and are) several power groups/interests that have worked against the phaerimm for millenia.
Which powergroups do you mean that twarted the phaerims plans while inside sharnwall? they must have been very powerfull to handle them when the phaerim where able to do all those damage after getting out and they didn't seem to have any interest in fighting them after they got out.
The only ones we know about are Melegaunt and his group but they can only have been a minor annoyance for them. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 11:21:57
That's why I said previously that they had power to do it under cover, their magic might would be so good at raising armies as in hiding forces - maybe separate forces. Of course they raised armies and their plans were foiled hundreds of times, I just think that would not be a reason for them to give up, and MAYBE this bugbear, illithid and beholder army could be one of the more recent efforts in this way. Not that they would not recruit more after the release. I think it just makes sense them to be as resourceful as they can.
EDIT: I know we're discussing if the bugbears came from the Anauroch itself or from nearly everywhere. So, focusing on Jakhuta Khan's question, my answer is: probably they got the Stonelands bugbears, and any other they could find after breaching the wall. Why not getting the asabi, hobgoblins and humans available, or even other races that were around at the time, if they were really able to bring allies from anywhere? This, I don't know. Maybe some of the other available races could be more resistant to mind control. But I still think most of the army was assembled inside the sharnwall, otherwise their forces would be more varied.
PS: And I think the choice on bugbears was simply to put enemies bigger and sneakier than hobgoblins and orcs. Simple as that! As I said before, I'm not sure if there was much worry on canon sources, but I'd stick with the Stoneland bugbear force, whose destiny wasn't mentioned after Elminster's Ecologies.  |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 07:51:12
@krashos:
I do agree with you, and that is exactly the reason why I thought there must be other bits and pieces of lore hinting on the activities of the Phaerimm scheming under Anauroch. For sure they clashed hardly with drow at some point, with Ilithids we know what happened, and elminster also stated that they controlled this city of beholders etc.
But I was looking for more information to be found specifically on the bugbears they used so amassed.
it is noted that troy eventually just threw them in, but usually every author hangs at least on some bits of canon lore when writing. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 04:20:27
The phaerimm are not team players. Who knows, those outside but relatively near the Sharnwall might be the ones who indirectly opposed those inside. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 00:20:50
Because the phaerimm weren't operating and living in a vacuum. There were (and are) several power groups/interests that have worked against the phaerimm for millenia. No doubt they tried to raise a gazillion armies over the centuries but their plans were thwarted time and time again. Just like the phaerimm themselves thwarted the plans of other races and groupings over the ages.
The Realms has a multitude of layers and absolutely no-one or no group operates in total isolation and without someone or something knowing or half-knowing what is going on. That's why Elminster has been the most effective Chosen in the modern Realms. He has a superlative information network and the brains to use that information to play off interests and create conflict so that no power group can get that slam-dunk to "take over the Realms!" (key music).
Knowledge is power.
-- George Krashos
|
| Barastir |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 10:44:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing.
What I was trying to say was: OK, they tried to breach the wall, then what? Why wouldn't they work on an army WHILE doing that? I was talking specifically about the issue of raising an army, to leave their captivity in full force! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:49:43
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I agree with Seravin, Troy probably needed big mean humanoids and goblins just didn't cut it. Bugbears are the goblinoid invaders of choice when orcs are unavailable ...
Agreed. The goblins would have been just mere annoyance to the elves, unless all of them happen to be spellcasters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
and we can't a hoard of orcs bashing down the mythals of those poor little elves, orcs are civilized now, they're good guys.
 |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:47:39
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing.
-That was right at the beginning of the first book in the series, right?
Correct. I also theorized that Melegaunt specifically chose that part of the Sharnwall because most probably it's the thinnest or least stable of the wall, having received the brunt of the phaerimm's unraveling spells. And that it's likely the clash of Melegaunt's shadow magic and Galaeron's Weave-based spells would not have torn that section of the wall if it's not so thin in the first place. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:46:52
I agree with Seravin, Troy probably needed big mean humanoids and goblins just didn't cut it. Bugbears are the goblinoid invaders of choice when orcs are unavailable ... and we can't a hoard of orcs bashing down the mythals of those poor little elves, orcs are civilized now, they're good guys. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:58:43
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing.
-That was right at the beginning of the first book in the series, right? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:30:24
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I just don't think they would spend the time before the breaching just waiting, if there was even a slight chance of them working behind the scenes. It simply doesn't look like Phaerimm, IMHO, doing nothing for centuries, unless it is an action that puts their plots at risk.
Melegaunt observed that the phaerimm were experimenting with new or improved spells that they used to try to break or at the very least punch a hole in the Sharnwall. So no, they were not just waiting for centuries in the wall doing nothing. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 19:01:41
I agree partially with you.
But It wouldbe nice to get some canon information about this. I am quite sure that there exist bits and pieces from which we can say all this to be canon or completely wrong, as always it is just a matter of finding it.
|
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 13:36:13
Yes and even if there once was only a small number of bugbears trapped within the sharnwall the phaerim would have prevented them from fighting each other or anyone else there and just would have them breed more and more until they got a big army for the day the wall is breached.
This would work with everything else trapped there too. So the mind flayers and beholders could have been aquired the same way. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 12:30:36
I got it, I'm just saying that, if they had time and were not being watched or somehow controlled, they could get a powerful army before the breaching. Considering most mental influences can be resisted (allowing saving throws), with time at their side they would assure 100% of success and allegiance from all the available forces inside the sharnwall boundaries. And yet, they could gather as much as they could to enlarge this army after the breach.
I just don't think they would spend the time before the breaching just waiting, if there was even a slight chance of them working behind the scenes. It simply doesn't look like Phaerimm, IMHO, doing nothing for centuries, unless it is an action that puts their plots at risk.
|
| Marc |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 06:01:30
The phaerimm controlled the mind flayers, who controlled the bugbears, simple as that. Tough there never were any bugbears in the Buried Realms as far as I know. |
