| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 16:56:25
With Giantcraft, A Grand History of the Realms, Lost Empires of Faerun and Dragons of Faerun, we have a fair bit of information on the old giant kingdoms.
The lore is scattered around these primary sources and a host of tiny little tidbits in other tomes, however. What is the enterprising scholar to do?
Collate. That's what.
I'll list the canon giant realms below, along with what subrace is associated with it, where it was and how long it endured, if known. Scribes who have any canon knowledge of these, or other kingdoms I did not even mention, should share enthusiastally and comphrehensively, for it is the will of Deneir.
I will colour solid canon a safe blue, things that I think that are canon purple and any speculation will be in normal and uncoloured ink.
Name of Kingdom_____Subrace_____Location_____Founded_____Ended
Ostoria (Empire)_____All_____North Faerun*____-30,000____-25,000
Ostoria (Kingdom)____All?_____Cold Lands**____-25,000_____ca -2,475
Helligheim_____Fire/All?_____Moonsea____ca -25,500_____ca -24,800
Jhothûn_____Frost_____Around North Pole_____between -30,000 and -27,000_____between -2,750 and ca -2,500
Voninheim_____Titan/All?_____Great Glacier____After -25,000_____ca -2,475
Grunfesting____Mountain and Hill____Giant's Run Mountain's____[Unknown]____[Unknown]____[Unknown]
Rangfjell_____Mountain_____[Unknown]_____[Unknown]_____[Unknown]
Darchar____[Unknown]_____Eastern Amn______Before -11,000_____Before -7,950
Nedeheim_____Stone_____Giant's Run Mountains (Underground)____[Unknown]___-5,350
Raunaroch_____[Unknown]_____Aunaroch____[Unknown]___Unknown
Fuirgar_____Stone_____The Giant's Belt (Raurin)____[Unknown]___Present
Skammháls_____Fog/More?_____Desertmouth Mountains____[Unknown]___[Unknown]
Can anyone fill in the gaps? Add the names of other kingdoms, for the subraces that don't seem to have any place of their own? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| coach |
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 05:50:05
i am away from my library, but Realms of Infamy had a short story about Voninheim and Ostoria
and Powers and Pantheons also gave the dates of Ulutiu's necklace and the forming of the Great Glacier (that destroyed Ostoria for good)
Voninheim was not a kingdom I don't believe, it was the capital of Ostoria |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 20:37:37
quote:
Dungeon #133
Skull Gorge
Skull Gorge is narrow canyon cut by the upper reaches of the River Reaching as it drains the northern Sunset Mountains. It lies in the unclaimed reaches of the Backlands (Bandit Kingdoms) south and west of the Great Desert of Anauroch.
In ages past, the caverns that lined the gorge’s walls were claimed by tribes of stone giants. The stone giants were citizens of the ancient giant empire of Grunfesting, and their lord ruled the gorge from the ramparts of the city of Kongen-Thulnir. As the power of the giant empires waned, the stone giants permitted small tribes of primitive humans to settle in the smaller caverns along the gorge.
This gives us also stone giants for Grunfesting along with their main city... |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 11 Jun 2012 : 20:24:01
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was another group of Giant's in The Giant's Run - the ones that gave the region its name, which should have of predated Nedeheim.
Maybe the gaints you were thinking of are the stone giants, remnants thereof fled underground and became the basis for Cairnheim. (somewhere after -160DR) [DGttU p85]
If another 'giant' type could be included, it is the trolls - though technically not giants, they are often referred to in one breath when one talks about the battle of Karlyn's Vale and the wars of the dwarves against the giants - they have their own realm of Stommheim now (post Shanatar)
While the name is Nedeheim (Underhome) I did get the impression that the Giants that did the running were for a large part above ground (also because it is High Shanatar that does the combat against the giants along with the (Deep) Shanatar subkingdom of Korolnor [DGttU p85] |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 21:47:25
Many groups of humans have had similar social structures at some point in their history.
For that matter, both dwarven and giant societies have had different social structures than this at some point in their histories.
Social structures, though affected to some degree by cultural fashions and preferences, generally form under strong pressure from external and internal factors of environment and economy. As such, expect to see groups in similar situations choose between a few possibilities according to their particular 'national' or 'racial' cultures and many disparate groups who end up with similar solutions for the same problems.
In real world history, similar forms of government and social organisation appear to have formed independently more often than not, merely because the same economic factors worked on these societies. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2012 : 21:36:33
Dwarven society and Giant society are not all that different. In fact, they have far more in common then they realize.
I believe both have the concepts of 'Overking' and 'Under-King' (Jarl). The Jarls are more like 'princes' and are considered royalty, and are kings in their own right within their own Realms. The Overkings (High Jarl?) decide matters between Realms, and normally rules a realm of their own (with their son running the day-to-day of that kingdom).
Just my take, is all.
I was just checking that other thread I linked above - I misremembered a bit. Sarphil controlled the lands just north of Tethyamar - the Dragonspine Range. I guess Tethyamar was at the extreme NE edge of the Oghrann lands, bordering Sarphil.
I bet each race has their own 'national borders', that ignores the borders established by other races. I would love to do a series of kingdom maps like that someday (showing how each race views Faerun). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 07:19:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My assumption with Tethyamar was that it was an outpost of Oghrann (Tunlands). However, canonically someone decided to attach Tethyamar to Sarphil instead (see THIS THREAD). If I were to rectify all of that, I would consider Sarphil an 'over kingdom' of the eastern heartlands, with several 'little kingdoms' (Dwarf Holds) located therein, similar to how Delzoun and Shanatar were set-up (and the more tightly connected Bhaerynden in the Great Rift).
Tethyamar was certainly settled from 'fallen Oghrann', see Lost Empires of Faerun. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 23:02:41
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Certainly.
Glad to hear it.
My Realmslore skills are hardly the equal of most any scribe here at Candlekeep, so I try to be careful when I venture answers to this particular shelf.
I've got yours and Farear's information requests (his for Beholder names) in the back of my mind, so if I see something related to either as I poor through my Realms book collection, I'll be sure to post. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:37:45
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
@Icelander: Was my last of some help to you?
Certainly.
On one hand, Thane is a title for a ruler theoretically lower than King, so that reduces the odds of Skammháls being a kingdom and points to it being a demesne of a nobleman inside a kingdom. On the other, historical rulers of nations have held titles such as Earl, Duke or even First Citizen and 3,000 giants is a lot of giants*, so maybe Blóta does command a whole kingdom.
I'll add it. It's at least a giant community and if it turns out to belong to some of the above mentioned realms, well, I can delete it.
*If that's how many a single nobleman of the giant realm can whelm for war, how large is the kingdom in total?! |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 22:16:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The God's Legion Mountains was the old (Netherease) name for the Desertmouth Mountains.
Its an interesting entry, given the evidence of at least 3 dwarven realms in that range.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also note that range is directly north-east of the Tunlands, where The Battle of God's Theater took place. Coincidence of names? maybe....
Coincidence? No, coincidence is two liches named Larloch in the same place at different time frames. In other words, coincidence is the result of insufficient research.  I have no theories of my own, but I bet Ed does... and I bet he can't tell us anything, either.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 18:01:33
Also note that range is directly north-east of the Tunlands, where The Battle of God's Theater took place. Coincidence of names? maybe....
As for the 'dwarven realms', there is Tethyamar (which you mentioned), and there are also the D'tarig that live (currently?) on the western slopes of that range, and there was one Grey dwarven (Duergar) realm located somewhere beneath the mountains (can't recall the name, only that I marked it on my maps).
My assumption with Tethyamar was that it was an outpost of Oghrann (Tunlands). However, canonically someone decided to attach Tethyamar to Sarphil instead (see THIS THREAD). If I were to rectify all of that, I would consider Sarphil an 'over kingdom' of the eastern heartlands, with several 'little kingdoms' (Dwarf Holds) located therein, similar to how Delzoun and Shanatar were set-up (and the more tightly connected Bhaerynden in the Great Rift). |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 16:15:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The God's Legion Mountains was the old (Netherease) name for the Desertmouth Mountains.
Cool. I didn't know that.
I like seeing different names for the same place/region. Makes the setting more vibrant.
@Icelander: Was my last of some help to you? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 11:09:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The God's Legion Mountains was the old (Netherease) name for the Desertmouth Mountains.
Its an interesting entry, given the evidence of at least 3 dwarven realms in that range.
Well, it does take place some 1400 years before shield dwarf prospectors establish what would become the mines of Tethyamar there.
I don't know what the other realms are, but even if they were there at the time, I doubt that dwarves would have felt the need to abandon careful underground defences in order to die among the peaks of the mountains to prevent giants from crossing there. After all, getting them away from the mountains is victory and who cares if they then invade a bunch of uppitity human arcanists who would enslave the dwarves given half a chance? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 05:19:30
The God's Legion Mountains was the old (Netherease) name for the Desertmouth Mountains.
Its an interesting entry, given the evidence of at least 3 dwarven realms in that range. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 21 Feb 2012 : 04:56:47
On page 34 of GHotR there is a sidebar that mentions an army of 3,000 giants raiding into Netheril out of the Gods' Legion Mountains, led by Thane Blóta of Skámmhals.
I don't know where those mountains are or if Skámmhals is a city or a nation of giants, but I figured I'd mention it here. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 09:52:20
According to Elminter's Ecologies, the Cloudlands of today have Silver and Mist dragons, and Storm and Cloud Giants. The mythical and secret (at its time) kingdom that thrived in the clouds above was alledgedly inhabited by "dragons, giants, sylphs, pegasi, asperii, giant eagles, and even some winged, elflike beings whose name is no longer remembered (and who are now apparently extinct). These races coexisted in peaceful harmony among the clouds, avoiding the decadent human realms of the time, especially Asram". It fell some 1,500 years ago, and there is probably a lot of exaggeration on the tales about this wonderful realm. The text also says that people usually use the story of the Cloudlands kingdom to explain the stones scattered in the lands below, telling stories of an earth/sky war that destroyed the giant's castles. Well, it seems at least part of this fallen masonry would be the rubble of netherese enclaves. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 20:06:01
Barastir's comment above reminded me of something Ed said awhile bank on giants in the Stonelands: if you look a good way down on this forum page, Ed talks about Giants from norther Thar engaging in a brief war with dragons in the Stonelands.
My Realms geography knowledge is not great, so I'm not sure if Thar is counted under one of the regions in the first post of this scroll. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 19:53:40
I always felt the 'Cloud kingdom' was originally a nation of Cloud Giants, that grew to include many other flying sentient races. This was located above the Stonelands (and what little lore we have on it is included in that supplement). Because of its location and the timeline, I would place it as a contemporary of Netheril, and possibly a Thaeraval survivor-state (as a close ally of Thaeravel, which could be why the giants hated the Netherese).
There was another group of Giant's in The Giant's Run - the ones that gave the region its name, which should have of predated Nedeheim.
In the east (Guge) there are the Coomb Giants (Storm Riders). Giants were involved in the building of several K-T edifices, and also part of its folklore. K-T giants seem to be of one type, and are almost like civilized hill giants (smarter, with better hygiene), and are sometimes helpful and have even worked for the Imperial gov't.
How did you forget Hartsvale? Its last known king was a Firbolg. There are also many clans of Firbolg (and other giants) living in the Spine of the World (Gerti's Frost Giants* were another). Some little Firbolg lore can be gleaned from that character in RAS's Cleric Quintet.
And Icelander - you need to learn about the [code] command - it is your friend.
*EDIT: See the Tholvarr entry on pg.33 of Silver Marches. I thought the kingdom was Shining white, but I think that's just where Gerti had her own tribe. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 12:02:22
I think there is something about the cloud giants in the Elminster Ecologies boxed set that deals with the Storm Horns, Stonelands, and its vicinities. I think the reference also mentions cloud or mist dragons and rumors about the avariel. |
| Marc |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 08:29:50
According to Eric Boyd, posted here in the Dragons of Faerun thread, Grunfesting is in the Giant's Run.
About the cloud giants in the Stonelands, I don't remember.
Giant-kin realms are Hartsvale, and the one in the Moonshaes. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 07:16:01
Considering names for a while, Grunfesting means 'The Verdant Fortress' (or Green Fortress), Hellligheim means 'Sacred Home', Rangfjell means 'Mountain of Honour' and Nedeheim is 'Underhome'.
Going by that, I'd say that more than just Fire Giants (at some point, at least) lived in Helligheim.
I'm also going to assume that either Rangfjell was a mountain realm where 'civilised' hill giants whose concept of maat was more finicky than the rest went and became Mountain Giants or it was a place where more than one subrace dwelt together.
Unless Grunfestning was a Voaydkin fortress (which I don't quite like), I suspect that it was a mighty fortress on the surface in or near the Giant's Run Mountains, overlooking verdant forests, and that it was the upper counterpart to Nedeheim. I'd expect stone giants (maybe some fire giants if there's volcanic activity) to live below ground and the upper areas being settled mainly by hill, mountain and fire giants (again, only if some of the Giant's Run were active volcanos at the time). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 07:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Ranauroch is mentioned in Giantcraft.
Yes, and so is Vodinheim, a survivor state from Ostoria.
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Grunfesting was in the Giant's Run region. A realm of cloud giants that was-is south of Netheril.
Nice! Where did you find this information? |
| Marc |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 06:33:59
Ranauroch is mentioned in Giantcraft. Grunfesting was in the Giant's Run region. A realm of cloud giants that was-is south of Netheril. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 22:46:11
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I don't have the dates, but I think Fuirgar should be in there somewhere.
Certainly, yes. A stone giant realm between the Shaar and the Raurin. I belive it's still extant during the 1300s DR, no?
Can anyone direct me toward any lore about it? I've just seen it on maps.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Darchar, Grunfesting, Helligheim, and Rangfjell are mentioned in the Grand History but only in the Dawn Ages suggesting that they all rose before c -30000 and fell before c -24000. Not concrete, but it's something.
Well, it does so 'over time', so I assume it was discussing the giant-dragon conflict over a larger time frame than just the Ostorian war.
Darchar canonically survives at least until 11,000 DR, since it is on a map of the Sword Coast of that time in Brian R. James Moonshaes article.
Some of the others could have lasted longer than the end of the Dawn Age as well.
On the other hand, I think it's very plausible that the above-mentioned kingdoms are all Ostoria 'survivor-realms' in some sense and thus founded in the Dawn Age.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Also, the Dodkong founded Nedeheim as Cairnheim (stone giants) in -160, also from the Grand History.
Indeed. That is why I conjecture that Nedeheim may originally have been a stone giant kingdom. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 22:41:18
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
I don't think it was ever documented as a 'Giant Kingdom', but not only Eastern Amn and the Giant's Run Mts held giant populations, the land of Tethyr also had giant presence. First the elves struggled with them, the dragons preyed on them, later the dwarves of Shanatar joined the fray, leading to the virtual disappearance of giants in the area and after the battle of Karlyn's Vale allegedly the Giant's Run Mts got their name... as a place the surviving giants fled to.
Yes, I have no doubt that giants lived elsewhere than in survivor kingdoms after the fall of Ostoria (the empire). Some would have fled in small groups, some would have been cut off and others would have tired of the constant warfare.
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Note: Darchar is also mentioned in VGttSC in the entry on Asbravn (Tantain's Barrel's & Crates)
Yes, that's where I first saw it. Then I saw the name in GHotR and the precise location (in 11,000 DR) in Brian. R James' Dragon Magazine article on the Moonshaes. |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 20:43:23
I don't think it was ever documented as a 'Giant Kingdom', but not only Eastern Amn and the Giant's Run Mts held giant populations, the land of Tethyr also had giant presence. First the elves struggled with them, the dragons preyed on them, later the dwarves of Shanatar joined the fray, leading to the virtual disappearance of giants in the area and after the battle of Karlyn's Vale allegedly the Giant's Run Mts got their name... as a place the surviving giants fled to.
Note: Darchar is also mentioned in VGttSC in the entry on Asbravn (Tantain's Barrel's & Crates) |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 15 Feb 2012 : 17:41:40
I don't have the dates, but I think Fuirgar should be in there somewhere.
Darchar, Grunfesting, Helligheim, and Rangfjell are mentioned in the Grand History but only in the Dawn Ages suggesting that they all rose before c -30000 and fell before c -24000. Not concrete, but it's something.
Also, the Dodkong founded Nedeheim as Cairnheim (stone giants) in -160, also from the Grand History. |
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