| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 28 Dec 2011 : 13:43:02
Hello everybody,
with my steady interest in the greenskinned races of the realms, a new theory has sprung up.
Ed and THO replied to my last question about Hobgoblin goals etc. sufficient to see them different from Humans totally.
How do you guys think the chance is, that all this secret activity, staying undercover and "acting" and scheming behind the scenes is controlled by the Melial Tribe in the Skull Gorge region?
Elminster staes, that they are the last remnants of the greenskin kingdom, their ancesotry fleeing the battle of bones and since then dwelling there. He states they are still powerful magic users, and use magic items from the old times, as well as overcoming their basic racial animosities.
they, as the only really organized force I know officially, could have a really working network of spies, secret agents, allies etc.etc. in place.
I am looking forward as always to your combined replies and thoughts.
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| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Derulbaskul |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 03:03:05
Since reading Ed's comments on the Skull Gorge area some years ago, I can't help but think it is a perfect location for the Caves of Chaos from B2 Keep on the Borderlands... or the Caves of Chaos from the D&DFantasy Heartbreaker playtest that is currently happening.
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| Barastir |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 15:47:22
I only think that maybe they don't necessarily favor divine spellcasting, since Hlundadim was a renegade netherese arcanist or an other-planar creature. Even if I really like stories dealing with deities, religion and faiths, Elminster's Ecologies doesn't specify anything that way, and I think it would if it was really a proeminent aspect of those spellcasters. I think they must have mages, or witch doctors with higher than normal arcane power.
And Hlundadim can also be a fiend, maybe the most powerful of them, and/or the one who opened the gates to the lower planes, allowing contact with (lesser?) fiends as we discussed earlier in this thread. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 22 Feb 2012 : 07:30:37
Well, it is not specified which religion they have in the entries and information I have found.
It would, though, tbe logical if they followed the same rites / demons or goblin gods which old hlundadim also followed.
I have put down the question in Ed#s scroll already, but I do not know when he finds the time to reply to it. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 15:57:59
Do these Melial have a shared religion? Say they are probably guided by the motives of the Goblin Pantheon. Are they all Maglubiyet worshippers, or does the Bugbear god Hruggek inspire their actions? Gruumsh (orcs), Vaprak (giants) and Grankhul (bugbears) could very well have a strong influence within the cabal of shaman that advise the Melial too.
Methinks that their spellcasters are likely to favor the divine, so this might be of help fleshing them out. Specific spies could also consist of Divine Seekers (PGtF) of the above mentioned pantheon, using their gifts to stay under the radar of the current demi-human powers that hold sway over their directly neighbouring lands, while providing information to the ruling cabal.
If the moment arises that the Melial decide to strike out against their neighbors Divine Champions of the goblinoid pantheon are excellent candidates as commanders or special forces of the Melial. To add extra oomph to those goblinoid warriors you could use the Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords system, especially the Iron Heart Discipline) to emphasise their physical superiority in battle. This tome already mentions Hobgoblins as being the ones to develop this brutal fighting style in ancient times. The revival of the Iron Heart warrior discipline could herald the coming of a new Goblin Era...
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| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 14:33:49
have a look in elminsters ecologies, under the entry for stonelands and goblin marches, there is some good information, and also in the chapter about the battle of bones area.
in the melial entry, it is written that they are direct descendants of the huge army that marched and fought to the battle of bones.
;)
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| Barastir |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 14:24:55
Nice, I thought so, but haven't seem it explicitly written anywhere. Is there any information about the true nature of Hlundadim, besides the speculation in GHotR?  |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 20 Feb 2012 : 09:02:21
@barastir:
actually the Melial ARE the last remnants of this long dead Goblinkin kingdom.
Their origins are from the bulk of the surviving magic users ( shamans, witch doctors, priets and mages sorcerers etc. ) which fled into skull gorge after the battle of bones, together with many of the demons they had summoned.
the uniqueness of hlundadim was the cooperation of many of the humanoid races, not only goblinkin and orcs, but as well worgs ( ok, not all too rare ), smaller evil giants, gnolls ( in my realms a fact, canonwise to be prooved I think ) etc.
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| Barastir |
Posted - 16 Feb 2012 : 12:21:24
Jakuta Khan, have you read about the goblinkin realm of Hlundadim? Since it seems to be the origin of warring bands of goblinoids quite near to the Battle of Bones, maybe the magic tradition or influence in the Melial region could come from this earlier realm. What do you think? |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 22:39:00
@arivia:
yes, I have seen this, thanks.
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| Arivia |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 04:34:47
Soneillon has a substantial writeup in 3e's Champions of Ruin. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 23:25:17
@xaeyruudh, mille gracie!!
do you have an ymore info about her or her goals? Or her origins??
edit: oohh, I was not all too wrong with her being tied to agrosh ;) feels gooooood.....
so is there any more info now on her powerbase, number of followers, other allies etc? |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 21:23:00
Soneillon is a succubus who involved herself with Impiltur. she appeared first, as far as i know, in a Dragon article (by George Krashos? my memory is foggy here) about some magical swords: Soargar's Legacy. quite the awesome article, and i know i still it somewhere...
edit: this candlekeep thread mentions her: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10010 |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 15:44:48
same to me, I can not recall directly where the info from the succubus is coming from, but it is also canon, definately.
I think it was mentioned as being slain by one of the impilturian nobles in some article about the history of impiltur.
any other sgaes having an idea?
maybe a distant relative of the half-fiend king of impiltur in the past???? wouldbe kinda kewl. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 15:20:30
Nice. And where the succubus came from? If she's homebrew, can you provide details (name, time in the Material Plane, etc)? If not, where can I find this info? I've never thought of a succubus acting in concern with humanoids, IMO they always looked more akin to fighter/ravager fiends... |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 14:32:13
The piece of lore is not homebrew,
taken from the grand history of the realms,
1095, Year of the Dawndance:
- The war-captain Imphras unites the major cities of the
Easting Reach into the new nation of Impiltur.
[176650000] [WTC11836] [TSR1085a]
- The present realm of Impiltur is founded by the War-Captain
of Lyrabar Imphras Heltharn, who unites the independent citystate
of Lyrabar, Hlammach, Dilpur, and Sarshel to face the
hobgoblin hordes advancing out of the Giantspire Mountains.
The wood elves of the Grey Forest, and the shield dwarves of the
Earthfast Mountains also join the fight. [882927200
p.88] [WTC11836 p.203]
The Unknown Agenda is my "homebrew" interpreting some hints Ed and THO have been given, but in no way APPROVED.
But the Hobgobs in the Giantspires r canon. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 24 Jan 2012 : 13:31:54
This piece of lore about the succubus and the hobgoblin army is homebrew, or is it canon? This "unknown agenda" is from Elminster's Ecology, or from somewhere? I thought their ultimate goal would be the goblin's supremacy in the Forgotten Realms... |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 19:13:44
agree, but as there is literally NO canon information, it is good and bad.
good: we are completeley free to design etc without hurting canon lore or something.
bad: see above... just no information ;)
as I said, there are other power groups, and also factions within the melial, but they work for one big goal, which is yet to be discovered.
but fiends being in control in skull gorge, or fiends working with humanoids, couldbe linked for example also to other events:
in the region where the allied army gathered to counter the tuigans, in the mountains there, a vast army of hobgoblins under the leadership of a succubus swarmed and almost destroyed impiltur ( think even killed one of their king ), wouldbe a perfect match, with the succubus sent there together with a host of hobgoblin generals, to build an army there - the swarming was simply them searching a specific item, another piece of the big puzzle.
i am so much looking forward to hear some input from either ed or THO on this issue..... |
| Barastir |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 09:52:49
Now I got the picture, and it is very interesting indeed. And I think it is fine that some fiends took control of specific groups. However, it seems that in most of the cases whan lower planar denizend are involved, they end up freeing themselves and controling their summoners (as with humans). Of course, considering they are immortal and pure evil, it is understandable, but it is nice to think of cunning humanoids who actually keep control of them.
The idea is very good, but I could think of more than one group of influence, or at least of factions inside their organization. Maybe there was some opposition between them and similar power groups (like a different group in the Gorge of the Fallen Idol, for example). Such opposition would be good, in a way, to "sharpen" them... And their relations with different tribes or with Holorarar could be different (they could, for example, only have spies in some places, but have great influence on the Hobgoblin Kingdom)... What do you think? |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 09:39:27
well, for me they r ruled by their own kin, maybe even several members of different races, but there is not much canon about them at all.
basically all that is known about them is in elminsters ecologies, in the small entry there.
I COULD though imagine, that they are eventually ruled by some demon or devil.
They summoned many of these beasts for the battle of bones, and a good portion of them fled there, red somewhere in a skull gorge entry that some of the demons from the battle still dwell there today.
eventually a powerful of them managed to seize control over the Melial....
but altogether, yes thepicture you got from them is correct in my realms.
of course they are not supreme rulers, but their network would give them vast influence in many many different regions.
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 18:26:00
so you're just looking at the Melial orchestrating things behind the scenes, like a grand puppeteer of humanoids across all of Faerun? pretty cool idea. there's definitely room for a humanoid organization opposing the Harpers, the Zhentarim, and everybody else.
the Melial would want long-standing alliances, with particular chieftains, and that means longevity magic and a balance of smart-enough-but-not-too-smart. humanoid tribes tend to be ruled by the strongest moreso than the smartest. the chieftains of those tribes would have to be both strongest and smartest, in order to remain chief long enough to be useful to the Melial... otherwise chiefs get replaced every few years as the strongest of the new generations take their place.
are your Melial directed by baatezu, or by goblins, or by something else? |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 16:43:52
do not get me wrong here, I think I misexpresse myself
I mean the Melial having their network solely in other Humanoid communities.
In my thoughts, they would then have spies, contacts, allies, friends etc.etc. in all the tribes, clans, warbands of the stonelands and the goblin marches.
this came to my mind after havng had the replies from Ed and THO regarding especially the Hobgoblin mindset - why conquer and risk extinction, if you can get what you want without even showing your enemies you are there....
They would, effectively, secretely rule the area already, as they even infiltrated the border raiders for they see the red dragon that controls them as a competition....
They have successfully thwarted any attempt by the humans of cormyr or adventurers to settle / tame the area, either by sending or directing humanoid warriors to destroy such attempts, or even bribing or luring powerful monsters to meet them and fight them off.
They come from an empire of mixed humanoids, and have lost the battle of bones, where they had hundreds of thousands of warriors and so have been scheming in the dark for 300 years now.
During this time, they have defended their homelands against cormyr and the zhents, only to allow the latter to trade through their realm by letting some of their members / allies be hired, bribed etc. by the zhents - all to make them believe they are actually in control.
The majoritxy of their "empire" though, does not even know that they are part of it - no yet. They prefer to stay hidden, and preparing for their big comeback.
They Are in close contact with every major group of Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears, as well as some Gnollish etc. races.
They helped Obould escape when Citadel felbarr was taken from him, leading him away through secret tunnels during the final attack of the dwarves and knights of the humans. But also then, only a handful of the orcs getting away with obould knew they were acting for somebody else, and these were only intermediates of the melial... In the aftermath they secretely murdered at least a dozen of the competitors of Obould, so he could eventually charge out of the Mountains and found Many arrows. Know the Melial have a lot of informants and spies even amongst the orce dwelling there.
They Helped the Sythilisian Ogre Mages recruit their Massive army, either by directly sending allied tribes of warriors to their cause, or, their biggest support, convincing the Holorarar Hobgoblin Kingom to support them with 5.000 Legionairs as well as producing weapons and armor for their troops.
All this was schemed in secret, again most of the time the affected individuals not knwoing or even thinking of a bigger plan behind it.
They have good spies on each "court" of goblin or orc Kings in the earthfast mountains, the spine of the world, and even the pair of hobgoblins controlling the humanoids in the copper mountains are their allies as well as the goblins dwelling on Thays Borders.
The Hobgoblins and Goblins at the Gorge of the fallen idol are also tightly connected to them and it is due to their influence that everybody around the place STILL thinks the might of the tribes in the gorge is broken - just until they decide it is the right time to proove them wrong.
They Lure in the Dark, waiting for some big thing, or until they find a mighty artifact........
And then They could strike at dozens of different places at the same time, directly or indirectly controlling hundreds of thousands of humanoid warriors.
"looks up from Keyboard" - oops got taken away here a bit:)
Sorry guys, most of this os only homebrew.... But I love the pure Idea of this.... |
| Barastir |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:58:50
I think the problem of infiltrating is that goblinoids are killed at sight in some places. I know they aren't in Baldur's Gate, but in the North - maybe with the exception of Waterdeep - it is true. That's why having some arcane knowledge would be survival, for them. Besides, maybe the Western Heartlands mercantile cities could be a bit more tolerant.
I'll read "Elminster Ecologies" again , that's the place where I thought I read about Melial being inhabited mainly by orcs, and maybe by "regular" goblins. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 19 Jan 2012 : 17:43:46
hi! yea, this is pretty interesting. i hadn't read through the ecologies before, but looking at it now i can see a foundation for mischief-making.
i see the Melial being more lawful than most other individual goblinoids. their leadership, at least, is very intelligent and organized. i think it's logical to assume that they would have some kind of spy (or perhaps a small "cell" at best) posted in nearby human settlements.
humans don't like goblinoids, but somebody has to empty the chamberpots, clean out the stables, and so forth, and it seems likely that the humans of Faerun are just as notorious as the humans of our world for paying someone else a pittance for doing the stuff they themselves don't want to do. so putting a humanoid population (goblins or hobgoblins should be far more likely than orcs or bugbears) in a human city shouldn't be a problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
How do you guys think the chance is, that all this secret activity, staying undercover and "acting" and scheming behind the scenes is controlled by the Melial Tribe in the Skull Gorge region?
which secret activity? sorry, i'm not sure what you're referring to.
as far as causing intrigue... i wouldn't think so. Melial spies would try to gain employment with those who are most likely to possess ancient artifacts which are of interest to the Melial, so as to arrange a theft. they would remain inconspicuous, to avoid blame for anything. they want to be feared by other humanoid tribes, but coming to the attention of humans (Cormyr) could be a disaster.
all just my two coppers.
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| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 13 Jan 2012 : 08:19:58
@barastir: Elminster States in "The Stonelands and the Goblin Marches" on page 19 under the Melial entry, that they are the last vestige of the mixed race empire which led the troops to the battle of bones. The survivors fled to skull gorge and are living there since then.
I think they have all the requested skill, if they are interested in doing these activities.
They have orcs, goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears as well as other races in their ranks, and even Elminster stated that they still can summon demons etc, and are skilled magic users.
This made me think they oculd have like an underground network, with the base in skull gorge from which they practically control the whole stonelands, but with an extremely low profile so no outstanding parties are getting worried, while they prepare for the return of their empire.
would love ot have THO or ED state something on this ;) as well. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 17:34:52
Wasn't there orcs, not hobgoblins? Where can I find Ed's statements about the Melial goblinoids? They have hobgoblin thieves, or they use bugbears as their spies? How do you see this undercover action? They'd use magic to enter human society? Are they good in disguising? |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 09:54:23
really noone interested in this part?
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