| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Aether Navigator |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 07:37:55
I haven't played AD&D in a long time, and never Forgotten Realms. I'm about to start a new game, and have been told it's going to be primarily set around the Sea of Fallen Stars. We'll be using 2nd edition. What books would you recommend I try to find to learn about this region? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 22:19:44
Little more thoughts on the wall:
First of all - we are talking about ocean, you cannot build a wall to the top and think that it will last a moment.
Second - I think that any sentient nation in sea will try to use a heavier protection for it's solders in full fledged war. These solders will therefore be pulled to the bottom but usually, there is no trouble with that in the sea.
Third - not only is there psychological effect of big static barrier but also fact, that almost all sea predators attack from bellow and I bet that everything living in sea know that and instinctively feel vulnerable when forced to show it's belly in open sea. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Nov 2011 : 00:42:16
I was talking about the book(s), as a published work, and not so much the setting itself.
The new setting is chock-full of good ideas, that either weren't fully realized nor fleshed-out, or ran contrary to other 4e lore. When I said 'cobbled together', I meant the tome, not the setting (which unfortunately also felt that way, because it was a reflection of the books about it).
What we were just discussing in this thread is a perfect example - someone was smart-enough to remember the wall, but then addressed it poorly. If it wasn't going to be made interesting (or even consistent), what was even the point of mentioning it? This is why I say it feels like just a pile of several years worth of notes cobbled together - rushed, with little cohesion. Its just very rough around the edges as far as content... it lacks focus. The tempo of the 3e CG was a masterpiece - each chapter flowed seamlessly into the next. It was an enjoyable read, like a novel, rather then have that flat, textbook feel. I felt as if pieces of information were just being flung at us.
On the other hand, I have to admit that a lot of that feeling could be because I didn't like the shear number of changes, which was jarring. I felt like Woody Allen waking up in Sleeper (in other words, completely disoriented). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 04:37:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The 4th edition setting has a very 'unfinished' quality about it...
I do believe that this was part of the 4e design philosophy for the Realms.
While some of the older mainstays of the Realms may have been redefined, the general premise was to ensure that so much of the post-Spellplague setting remained "unfinished" in an effort to encourage more creative opportunities for new DMs or players unfamiliar and/or unwilling to read through 20+ years of background lore, to explore the new world. They'd be in on the ground floor of the "new" Realms from the start.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 04:04:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could dig the wall being used in such a fashion -- but there was no mention of anything like that, as I recall. Just that the wall was now above water, as if it would have no impact on anything at all.
Now that I am in house-buying mode, I am tending to view 4eFR as a "fixer-upper", otherwise known as a 'handyman special'. Its kinda shabby, but with a little bit of work most of the lore can be made into something fairly attractive. Like an old car, everything you need is there, you just have to tune it up, re-wire a couple of things, and slap a new coat of paint on the parts. It still runs, it just needs some TLC to become respectable.
The 4th edition setting has a very 'unfinished' quality about it... not nearly as polished as the 3e Campaign Guide was. It almost looks cobbled together at the last moment out of three years worth of notes belonging to several people (which don't always agree with each other); like a rough draft rather then finished copy. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Nov 2011 : 01:31:10
The Sea of Fallen Stars, as it remains in it's present post-Spellplague state, is one area I'm hoping receives further treatment via the DDI. We've had some stuff, but that's mostly focused on the abolethic components. I would like to see what's been happening elsewhere -- particularly beneath the waves -- as well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 21:40:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I actually like the 4e version better (despite the fact that none of the 4e guys own a calculator  ). The top of an ancient wall that is sometimes visible above the waves, sometimes not 9and with a big gap in it at one point) is far useful to me as a DM. I can see control of that one safe-passage point being fought over, and (sea)pilots for that region commanding much respect, along with high fees (you have to know the tides, currents, and height of the deteriorating wall-top at a few different places).
I could dig the wall being used in such a fashion -- but there was no mention of anything like that, as I recall. Just that the wall was now above water, as if it would have no impact on anything at all. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Nov 2011 : 21:26:06
I can't believe no-one has used the "size doesn't matter" argument yet. 
And Quale, that sounds a lot like what I said - some sort of magic extended above the wall itself. You've made yours a bit more of an active defense then I did.
I actually like the 4e version better (despite the fact that none of the 4e guys own a calculator ). The top of an ancient wall that is sometimes visible above the waves, sometimes not (and with a big gap in it at one point) is far useful to me as a DM. I can see control of that one safe-passage point being fought over, and (sea)pilots for that region commanding much respect, along with high fees (you have to know the tides, currents, and height of the deteriorating wall-top at a few different places). |
| Therise |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 21:46:35
That's not math, that's just measurement.
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| Steven Schend |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 19:35:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Has anyone yet figured out that the top of the wall is probably ABOVE sea level in 4e? <smirk>
It literally is. I commented on that when I did my own review of the FRCG.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But here's the real odd stuff. Myth Nantar is described in the Sea of Fallen Stars as being 350 underwater -- and it specifically refers to that as being open water, over the city proper (page 165 mentions the depth, and page 168 refers to that depth as being over the city proper). And yet, since the Sea of Fallen Stars lost 50 feet of depth in the Sellplague, Myth Nantar now has areas of the city entirely above water (page 172 of the FRCG). So three hundred and fifty feet, minus fifty feet, somehow equals about fifty feet or so.
And the Sharksbane Wall... Page 51 of the Sea of Fallen Stars mentions that the wall is 60 feet high, and is built on a ridge that's about 140 feet underwater. Thus, there is 80 feet of water between the top of the wall and the surface. According to the FRCG, 30 feet of the wall is now above the surface. That means that in this area, that 50 foot drop in sea level was about 110 feet.
How does that math work out? 
Having that much of the Wall above water would also isolate part of the Sea, with only that one gap. This would dramatically affect shipping and the environment -- but there is no mention of either.
I found a t-shirt recently that coalesces my thoughts perfectly on things like this:
Dear Math,
I'm not your therapist.
Solve your own problems.
Steven
who's not trying to be flippant or dismissive, but it's an issue he can't resolve as his work on the matter at hand was done more than a dozen years ago and he can't change it |
| Quale |
Posted - 22 Oct 2011 : 15:27:24
the wall never made sense, personally I added a mythal with a continuous antipathy effect extending far above, the wall is just an anchor for the spell |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 13:40:10
It is a physical barrier. It's just not as good of one as you would like. That's not meant to be argumentative, either. Personally, I do the same as Markus, and have it come to within 20 or 30 feet of the surface.
Regardless of its height, the wall does do a number of things. It does channel approaching sahuagin forces. They can't go through the wall, they have to go over it. And while they can swim in lighter waters, they don't like to. Think, for instance, of 2e goblins taking a -1 to hit in daylight, and therefore being nocturnal.
Equally as important, it serves as a base for the sea elven defenders. A wall is only as good as those that guard it, and the real force holding the sahuagin back are sea elven armies. But those armies need places to sleep, to care for their wounded, to hold supplies. Without the wall and its garrisons, guarding that entire frontier would be impossible, at least without drastically more people.
And even if the wall only reaches within 100 feet of the surface, that's easily within spell range, and probably within range of underwater crossbows. Even if they never leave the wall, a sea elven force could rake the sahuagin as they swim over, causing a great deal of damage, and then would remain in the sahuagin's rear to harass or hold back reinforcements.
It's not a perfect defense, but then again, there is no such thing. It is, however, more effective and useful than I think you're giving it credit. |
| Aether Navigator |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 04:32:59
I guess at this point I'm just being argumentative. If there's no reason that the wall is a physical barrier for the sahaughin, that's fine. I just wanted to know if I was missing some facts. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 04:25:22
You're missing part of the wall's power: its psychological effect. Think about it. The sahuagin used to roam all of Seros, until the ancient elves finally said "Enough of this" and systemically kicked them out and exterminated anyone who wasn't in the Alamber. Then, as if that wasn't enough, they built a giant wall across the entire mouth of the sea. And that was ten thousand years ago. Every time the sahuagin have come across the wall, the elves (and sometimes the other races as well) would throw them back out in short order. That's got to leave some psychic scars on the sahuagin race.
The Wall's basically a giant "yeah, this is what you get when you mess with us" to the entire sahuagin race. Sort of like how the Mounties kept the peace in the Gold Rush Klondike, despite being drastically outnumbered by all the other factions: because they had the uniforms and the guts to stand up to anyone who might make trouble and say, yeah there's only one of me, but I've got an entire nation backing me up, and if you come after me, we'll send as many as it takes to hunt you down.
And the elves had the military might to back it up. Right up until Iakhovas broke the Wall, one of Seros's largest communities was sitting at the base of the Wall. It was a big city that was also essentially an entire garrison, ready to respond to an incursion anywhere along the wall. I think it's instructive that the only times the Wall was ever crossed with any kind of serious numbers were when the elves and other races were already fighting each other and therefore distracted. |
| Aether Navigator |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 04:12:10
Sorry, but that theory just doesn't hold water (if you'll pardon the pun). The reason walls are a defensive barrier in real life is because they cost time and effort to traverse, as well as giving the advantage of height to the defender. Imagine how useful walls would be if we all had wings. Not very, right?
A undersea wall against the sahuagin is about as useful as a picket fence against crows. Maybe less so, since sahuagin can get out of the water completely and crows can't go above the atmosphere (or even to very great heights within it). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 02:58:05
As for the lack of continuity (and logic), I am sorry I brought it up. No worries - I am more amused then annoyed at such things these days. Having no more sources to check facts is kinda... liberating... in a bizarre sort of way. You can't be a Grognard when your Grog has lost its nard. Lets just move on, shall we?
@Aether - when I first read the supplement (I also read the novel series, but not the adjoining anthology), I also had a bit trouble with how deep the wall was, and in my Realms I just assumed it came within 20' of the surface (adjusted by tides, which made it a reef-like danger to seafarers), and that small gap coupled with Sea-Elven vigilance made it nearly impossible for the Sahuagin to cross without significant casualties (like the pass defended by the Greeks against the Persians, made famous in 300). I also assumed some sort of magical field extending from the top of the wall to the surface that alerted the folk of Seros to any danger. Not exactly canon, but it works for me.
Basically, it made the area the other races needed to patrol a lot smaller, no matter how you look at it.
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 02:56:40
Myth Nantar in 2e/3e, or in 4e?
2e/3e's best source is Sea of Fallen Stars, as has been mentioned in this thread. It also makes appearances in the Threat from the Sea and Queen of the Depths novels.
I don't think it's had much more than an off-hand mention in 4e, but I could be wrong. I'm not a 4e expert. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 02:20:07
I am not trying to start anything, but the inability
the correct changes so that previous lore matches
what come out SERIOUSLY gets on my nerves.
Would anybody be willing to give some quick info on
Myth Nantar? I know nothing. |
| Aether Navigator |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 00:43:33
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm going from memory, but I think that exact issue was dealt with in-story via the "Threat from the Sea" novels.
How, exactly? I'm entirely uninterested in reading those (or any other fanfic) novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Quick note re: sahuagin and the Wall--basic dislike of increased light kept large numbers of critters from wanting to swim up toward the top of the wall
Not trying to be insulting or anything, but how is it logical that creatures which raid the land are too afraid to swim over a wall that's still significantly under water. Even if they were afraid of light, they could still do so at night, correct?
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
as did patrolling or wall-garrisoned sea elves. Also, the two-mile "gap" between guard posts is not as problematic as you'd think, given that sounds travel better in water and any patrols would likely hear anything coming before it approached visual range.
This is exactly my point. If the wall was difficult for the sahuagin to get across originally, then a 2-mile breach should be reasonably easy to patrol. If it was not a significant barrier, then why should such a hole make any difference in their ability to cross into the rest of the Sea of Fallen Stars? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 00:35:39
Pretzel-logic of the Far Realms.
And yet, strangely, nearly all port cities from 1e/2e/3e are STILL port cities, thus proving my oft-mocked theory that FR settlements have wheels...
Even Dungeons get rolled-around every once-in-awhile... just ask Gauntlgrym.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Oct 2011 : 00:28:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Has anyone yet figured out that the top of the wall is probably ABOVE sea level in 4e? <smirk>
It literally is. I commented on that when I did my own review of the FRCG.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But here's the real odd stuff. Myth Nantar is described in the Sea of Fallen Stars as being 350 underwater -- and it specifically refers to that as being open water, over the city proper (page 165 mentions the depth, and page 168 refers to that depth as being over the city proper). And yet, since the Sea of Fallen Stars lost 50 feet of depth in the Sellplague, Myth Nantar now has areas of the city entirely above water (page 172 of the FRCG). So three hundred and fifty feet, minus fifty feet, somehow equals about fifty feet or so.
And the Sharksbane Wall... Page 51 of the Sea of Fallen Stars mentions that the wall is 60 feet high, and is built on a ridge that's about 140 feet underwater. Thus, there is 80 feet of water between the top of the wall and the surface. According to the FRCG, 30 feet of the wall is now above the surface. That means that in this area, that 50 foot drop in sea level was about 110 feet.
How does that math work out?
Having that much of the Wall above water would also isolate part of the Sea, with only that one gap. This would dramatically affect shipping and the environment -- but there is no mention of either. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 23:55:56
Has anyone yet figured out that the top of the wall is probably ABOVE sea level in 4e? <smirk> |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 19:29:52
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Quick note re: sahuagin and the Wall--basic dislike of increased light kept large numbers of critters from wanting to swim up toward the top of the wall, as did patrolling or wall-garrisoned sea elves. Also, the two-mile "gap" between guard posts is not as problematic as you'd think, given that sounds travel better in water and any patrols would likely hear anything coming before it approached visual range.
At least that was the thinking I had way back when I wrote the sourcebook simultaneously with the Threat from the Sea novels coming out of Mel Odom's typewriter....
How much of what went in the the book was dictated by the trilogy? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 18:48:54
Quick note re: sahuagin and the Wall--basic dislike of increased light kept large numbers of critters from wanting to swim up toward the top of the wall, as did patrolling or wall-garrisoned sea elves. Also, the two-mile "gap" between guard posts is not as problematic as you'd think, given that sounds travel better in water and any patrols would likely hear anything coming before it approached visual range.
At least that was the thinking I had way back when I wrote the sourcebook simultaneously with the Threat from the Sea novels coming out of Mel Odom's typewriter.... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 15:33:41
I'm going from memory, but I think that exact issue was dealt with in-story via the "Threat from the Sea" novels.
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| Aether Navigator |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 11:48:09
Thanks for the help. Unfortunately that still leaves me confused. What was stopping the sahuagin from swimming over the wall before the breach was made?
The description says it was 100 miles long and 60 feet high, but 140 feet below sea level. Guard posts were every 2 miles, and now there's a 2 mile wide hole in it. Let's call that two guard posts missing. Given the fact that an extra 60 feet of depth is less than half what was already available to swim over, it appears to me that the two missing guard posts are the only real negative to the hole. Really, I don't see why it makes much of a difference. The sahuagin shouldn't have been much more inconvenienced by the wall than birds are by the Great Wall of China. Unless I'm missing something? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 07:10:23
quote:
Originally posted by Aether Navigator
the Sea of Fallen Stars book mentions a hole in the Sharksbane Wall letting monsters into the sea. Can someone tell me what exactly the Sharksbane wall is? And how you can put a wall in a sea (can't you just swim over it)?
Read the entry for "Hunters' Ridge" on pg. 51. That explains both what the Wall is and how it appears.
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| Aether Navigator |
Posted - 20 Oct 2011 : 05:37:58
the Sea of Fallen Stars book mentions a hole in the Sharksbane Wall letting monsters into the sea. Can someone tell me what exactly the Sharksbane wall is? And how you can put a wall in a sea (can't you just swim over it)? |
| Barastir |
Posted - 05 Oct 2011 : 12:23:40
I've imagined it, don't misinterpret my warning. Fact is that those books usually are not adventures but tell all the secrets and lore of the places, structures of power, NPC motivations and whereabouts of lost ruins, treasures, and so on, so your DM can develop his or her adventures taking the book as a basis. I was just telling you to handle with care, or to ask your DM which sections of the book would be "readable" without spoiling the adventure. |
| Aether Navigator |
Posted - 05 Oct 2011 : 03:32:58
I'll be a player. I am not looking for ST-only information, such as adventures. I'm looking mainly for cultural information, so I have some background on the area.
Thanks for the help. I'll see if I can find those books on Ebay for a reasonable price.
I'm not at all interested in novels. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2011 : 14:18:49
Sea of Fallen Stars is one of my fave 2E resources. |
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