| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| paradus |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 06:38:44
Greetings to all
I'm a first time poster but a long time viewer of the forums and I thought I'd ask of the details regarding The forgotten realm's lore and how is it compared to other rich fantasy settings like Glorantha and Middle-earth.I'm talking about the lore before 4th ed's massive change since I wasn't a fan of it and play using the 3rd ed book setting 2001.
Here are questions I'm looking for.
-Is the history well done and believable (I.e believable in that it works)?
-How well do the races tie in together?
-Is the world, cultures, geography and history deep,rich and enjoyable?
-How does it fare to other settings like Middle-earth in its overall lore?
-Are there fall's of empires to which change the very format of the world (i.e like Glorantha second age-third age)?
-Is Elminster's history and chaarcter development good, besides the obvious gandalf connections which i don't personally mind since I love gandalf.
-Is the lore for the gods and deities good?
All comments will be greatly appreciated .
cheers. |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Halidan |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 14:31:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And seriously, can you think of a better title to appeal to the vast array of non-fans that 4e FR was designed for? That was practically the anti-FR crowd's mantra for years. I thought it was laughingly suiting, all things considered.
You and I think too much alike, Markustay. When I first saw EMD on the bookstore shelves, I said to myself, "Wow the hardcore Greyhawk grognards finally got their wish."
Now I know that isn't a politicaly correct (or even kind) thought, but that is exactly what ran through my mind. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 06:30:06
Looking forward to Bury Elminster Deep in August! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:26:48
I care less about the titles. I rarely judge a novel based on its title. How many titles are there that starts with "I Am..."? Unimaginative title perhaps, but I quite enjoyed I Am Number Four by Pittacus Lore. And Feist, despite his sheer genius, chose [or maybe his publisher did] some rather shallow, uninteresting titles---A Darkness at Sethanon and Into a Dark Realm---but I had fun reading them, nonetheless. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 02:08:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Just a clarification, Dagnirion and Sage: the titles are ALWAYS chosen by Wizards. An author can suggest, sometimes strongly, but the publisher always has the final say. In the case of both ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE and ELMINSTER IN HELL, the head of Books came up with the title, then told Ed: "This is the title of your next novel. It should be obvious what I want to see in it, but just to make sure there's no misunderstanding . . ."
Unimaginative, perhaps. Yet the publisher would no doubt counter with something along the lines of: great titles, in terms of marketing—we'd be fools to pass up the chance to use them, and do covers and ads to match.
I should also remind everyone that it's not Ed's choice to emphasize elminster, or that his current six book contract is for Elminster novels, just as Bob's current contract is for six Drizzt novels.
It shouldn't strike anyone as an, ahem, "novel" concept that in game publishing matters, the publisher decides.
Something to bear in mind when commenting on why authors did this or that, or questioning their judgment. It's NOT "their" judgment, remember.
love from a still-sometime editor,
THO
I actually assumed that might have been the case, but I do recall Ed having a lot of fun here hinting at the content for EMD back when it was unreleased. I thought that was maybe an indication of something more personal with regard to the book's title.
Ah, well. I appreciate the clarification my lovely lady. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 01:25:03
Its a whole lot better then Being John MalKovich. 
And seriously, can you think of a better title to appeal to the vast array of non-fans that 4e FR was designed for? That was practically the anti-FR crowd's mantra for years. I thought it was laughingly suiting, all things considered.
I'm sure all the 'haters' soiled themselves, just before rushing to the Border's cashier to make their purchase (I hear they are still mopping-up all the spittle). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:16:56
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I know you're not much of a fan of Elminster, Dagnirion, but the title of the novel is definitively appropriate, given its focus and content. If you've the opportunity to read it at some point, I'm sure you'll likely understand the reasoning for Ed's choice of title.
-I didn't say the book was poor in terms of content. The title, however true (Someone believes Elminster must die, for whatever reason) and marketable (Romeo Must Die, John Tucker Must Die, Scott Tenorman Must Die, etc.) is rather blunt, and likely did not take much imagination to think up of. |
| Halidan |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 21:03:22
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
"He's more Merlin than he is Gandalf or Belgarath—in fact, if you look at Nicol Williamson's portrayal of Merlin in the movie Excalibur, remove the skullcap, and change the red hair to dark brown, the result will be pretty close to Elminster's whimsical behaviour and general looks; Old El of course predates the movie, too."
That's where Drizzt got the skull cap shown on those hideous book covers. He needs to give it back to Elminster. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 17:59:26
Just a clarification, Dagnirion and Sage: the titles are ALWAYS chosen by Wizards. An author can suggest, sometimes strongly, but the publisher always has the final say. In the case of both ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE and ELMINSTER IN HELL, the head of Books came up with the title, then told Ed: "This is the title of your next novel. It should be obvious what I want to see in it, but just to make sure there's no misunderstanding . . ."
Unimaginative, perhaps. Yet the publisher would no doubt counter with something along the lines of: great titles, in terms of marketing—we'd be fools to pass up the chance to use them, and do covers and ads to match.
I should also remind everyone that it's not Ed's choice to emphasize elminster, or that his current six book contract is for Elminster novels, just as Bob's current contract is for six Drizzt novels.
It shouldn't strike anyone as an, ahem, "novel" concept that in game publishing matters, the publisher decides.
Something to bear in mind when commenting on why authors did this or that, or questioning their judgment. It's NOT "their" judgment, remember.
love from a still-sometime editor,
THO |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 07:36:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Wait. There's actually a book called Elminster Must Die? I know I've been out of the loop for over a year, maybe two, but, really? Or, is this an April Fool's Joke?
Nope, it's not a joke.
-Wow...Okaaayyy...
-And I thought Elminster in Hell was an unimaginative title.
I know you're not much of a fan of Elminster, Dagnirion, but the title of the novel is definitively appropriate, given its focus and content. If you've the opportunity to read it at some point, I'm sure you'll likely understand the reasoning for Ed's choice of title.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 06:58:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Wait. There's actually a book called Elminster Must Die? I know I've been out of the loop for over a year, maybe two, but, really? Or, is this an April Fool's Joke?
Nope, it's not a joke.
-Wow...Okaaayyy...
-And I thought Elminster in Hell was an unimaginative title. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 06:29:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I am an Elminster fan, and I say his development has been disappointing lately. I like the first 5 Elminster novels. But the Shadows of Doom tasted bitter on my tongue, and so didn't bother picking up the other 2 in the series. The recent Elminster novel, Elminster Must Die, is equally disappointing. I've summed up all I thought about that book IN THIS THREAD.
-Wait. There's actually a book called Elminster Must Die? I know I've been out of the loop for over a year, maybe two, but, really? Or, is this an April Fool's Joke?
If you haven't noticed... I started that thread 29 Nov 2010.
Here's an info on the novel. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 06:12:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I am an Elminster fan, and I say his development has been disappointing lately. I like the first 5 Elminster novels. But the Shadows of Doom tasted bitter on my tongue, and so didn't bother picking up the other 2 in the series. The recent Elminster novel, Elminster Must Die, is equally disappointing. I've summed up all I thought about that book IN THIS THREAD.
-Wait. There's actually a book called Elminster Must Die? I know I've been out of the loop for over a year, maybe two, but, really? Or, is this an April Fool's Joke?
Nope, it's not a joke. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 06:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I am an Elminster fan, and I say his development has been disappointing lately. I like the first 5 Elminster novels. But the Shadows of Doom tasted bitter on my tongue, and so didn't bother picking up the other 2 in the series. The recent Elminster novel, Elminster Must Die, is equally disappointing. I've summed up all I thought about that book IN THIS THREAD.
-Wait. There's actually a book called Elminster Must Die? I know I've been out of the loop for over a year, maybe two, but, really? Or, is this an April Fool's Joke? |
| althen artren |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 04:14:23
So you just walked into the crack house and
asked everbody there if you like crack. 
My best recommendation is to start looking
over whatever you can find and make you own
decisions.
I think some designers were more
talented that other, and some designers were
a lot better at researching out the previous
lore from printed sources than others. One of
the things that get to me most is when there is
conflicting info any given Realms topic.
Edit: Oh, and when you start looking over the scrolls
you'll learn to hate the 3 letters NDA. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 02:10:44
Remove Merlin's skullcap? 
But I love the skullcap. It'd do Elminster some good to try one on now and then. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 02:02:31
I'll second most everything my fellow scribes have said already. I just want to address one of your earlier assumptions, however. Namely:-
quote:
Originally posted by paradus
-Is Elminster's history and chaarcter development good, besides the obvious gandalf connections which i don't personally mind since I love gandalf.
As Ed Greenwood has told us, in the past here at Candlekeep:-
"He owes a little bit to the Old Storyteller of Thornton W. Burgess, a little bit to Merlin, a little bit to Gandalf, a trifle to Fagin, a trifle to the literary character Glencannon, a little bit more to the real-life (and long since sadly deceased) English comedian Michael Flanders, and so on."
and:-
"He's more Merlin than he is Gandalf or Belgarath—in fact, if you look at Nicol Williamson's portrayal of Merlin in the movie Excalibur, remove the skullcap, and change the red hair to dark brown, the result will be pretty close to Elminster's whimsical behaviour and general looks; Old El of course predates the movie, too." |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 22:50:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by paradus-Is Elminster's history and chaarcter development good, besides the obvious gandalf connections which i don't personally mind since I love gandalf.
-I am in no way a fan of Elminster in any way, shape, or form. There's been plenty written about him, so getting information about his early life, later years, whatever, is no problem. I don't know if I'd necessarily consider the development good, per se, but I wouldn't consider it bad, either. It is what it is, I guess.
I am an Elminster fan, and I say his development has been disappointing lately. I like the first 5 Elminster novels. But the Shadows of Doom tasted bitter on my tongue, and so didn't bother picking up the other 2 in the series. The recent Elminster novel, Elminster Must Die, is equally disappointing. I've summed up all I thought about that book IN THIS THREAD. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 20:49:13
I've been a fan of the Realms since the early 90's. I've bought nearly everything Realms-related -- twice over, because my first copies were lost in a fire.
Obviously, my answer to every one of your questions is a resounding Yes! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 20:31:51
Nope.
There is absolutely NOTHING of interest in the Forgotten Realms.
--- Markustay, April 1st, 2011 |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:45:51
quote:
Originally posted by paradus
-Is the history well done and believable (I.e believable in that it works)?
-How well do the races tie in together?
quote:
Originally posted by paradus-Is the world, cultures, geography and history deep,rich and enjoyable?
-All very subjective and broad things, but yes, I find that 90% of the time, all of that works out. Personally, where things go above and beyond is in the unofficial, fan-made content and musings that you'll find, where people go into extreme depth about things like proto-cultural groups, how their environment, and magic, interactions with other groups shaped what they'd eventually become, stuff like that.
quote:
Originally posted by paradus-How does it fare to other settings like Middle-earth in its overall lore?
-Among the other D&D settings, the Forgotten Realms has the most skin-deep information, as well as depth and broadth to said stuff, if you want to go digging around for it.
quote:
Originally posted by paradus-Are there fall's of empires to which change the very format of the world (i.e like Glorantha second age-third age)?
-The rise of various civilizations to great power and prominence, only to fall, and have the passage of time replace them is, I think, the most central tenet of the setting, as a whole. If I recall correctly, the Elven runes on the cover of the FRCS, has to do exactly with this.
quote:
Originally posted by paradus-Is Elminster's history and chaarcter development good, besides the obvious gandalf connections which i don't personally mind since I love gandalf.
-I am in no way a fan of Elminster in any way, shape, or form. There's been plenty written about him, so getting information about his early life, later years, whatever, is no problem. I don't know if I'd necessarily consider the development good, per se, but I wouldn't consider it bad, either. It is what it is, I guess.
quote:
Originally posted by paradus-Is the lore for the gods and deities good?
-Hokey at times, in some cases, but, overall good, yes.
Mod edit: tweaked the quote coding to make it look right. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 17:31:20
I think it's fair to say more words (and maps, artwork, alphabets, lore, etc) have been written about the Realms than about Middle-Earth. The Two Tolkiens designed Middle Earth to be a grand and epic setting which spans ages while attempting to maintain a high degree of self-consistency. The Realms are more a creation of many (perhaps hundreds) of authors and are constantly evolving through change, plus they're deeply tied into at least four editions of D&D game rules ... this has unfortunately resulted in numerous inconsistencies, conflicting lore, a few craters in the setting, and some flaming schisms between diehard fans. This shouldn't dissuade ye, since Middle Earth fans are equally vehement about differing interpretations of their canon. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 14:40:56
I'd say yes to all for the most part.
The question about how races tie in together is a sorta mixed bag from my perspective. This setting is also tied into the greater cosmos of D&D and because of that, paralells and cross-overs do happen. In addition, since it uses the same rules, players in Forgotten Realms might want to pull something from another setting (a class, race, template, monster, etc..) but that might not have a Canonical-reference withing the current era your using. This is where I as a DM try to 'fit' that race somewhere or hand wave the fact that they've always been there from the Get-Go (like Shifters, descendant from true Lycanthropes).
And as for the Forgotten Realms deities and the lore associated with it, for most of the Greater Gods, yea the lore is there and more. For many of the Lesser Gods, however, I think there is very little in the way of supplemental materal (like from a D&D sourcebook instead of a Novel) so it can get frustrating when a player wants more info on a deity that's mentioned once or twice as a foot-note.
Oh, and welcome to the 'Keep! I do hope you enjoy your stay. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 08:02:45
To your Yes/No questions, all YES. It's vastly rich and detailed because there are a lot of authors who venture into almost all corners of the Realms. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 07:00:28
ye only joined today...I suppose you read by just coming here and digging through the scrolls?
At any rate, Aye, Aye and many Ayes!
I suggest in fact that its Lore is much more keenly developed than Middle-Earth, and its options greater as the basis for a role-playing setting...this because I've played in Middle-Earth as well since the early 80s.
Now that you are a member, it will be easier for you to keep up on conversations...I suggest that you simply read and read and read here and you will have your answers in spades.
Especially the scrolls where the game designers and authors answer questions...especially Ed Greenwood's scroll that has darn near DAILY answers from the creator of the world himself.
Yup...its good stuff.  |
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