| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 21:31:06
I'm looking for any and all canon lore about the means in which the various Goblins came to the Forgotten Realms.
Also, any Canon reference as to why there are three primary races: Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears.
I know there is a goblin lover in these halls!  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 16:17:50
I'm fully onboard with the idea that should hobgoblins decide to, they could supplant humans as the dominant species.
Why because they are stronger, just as intelligent, organised, sneaky, and ruthless.
The only question is why havent they, and the only answer i can think of is that they havent got the numbers.
Originally i thought they only appeared a few thousand years ago, now thanks to George's origin idea they have been isolated for millenia and only began to spread across Faerun in the past few thousand years, slowly building their numbers, waiting for their time to strike and inherit the world.
Muahahahaha |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 12:54:33
Ed also explained it quite well. He clearly stated, that the hobgoblin usual mindset is not like orcs or other humanoids. They are clever enough to maintain what they have got. i.e. they are satisfied with what they have, and rather use other humanoids, directly or indirectly, to get what they want.
But beware when they should decide otherwise, or move in force ( like on the sythilisian campaign ) when their gods tell them to do so.
Imagine an army of 20.000 or more hobgoblins on the campaign, supporter by tens of thousands of goblins, kobolds, gnolls, orcs, ogres etc.etc. and not stopping. THIS would mean an empire of humanoids, with structure, order and discipline..... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 09:27:12
I will have to keep an eye out for that when i get round to collecting Ed's posts. That is something i would definitely be interested in.
I'm glad the hobgoblin one is missing though, i think KGeorge's idea explains some of the hobgoblin personality traits rather well and what makes them so distinct from the other goblinoids. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 17:22:07
I have to look it up avain but ed answered to me regarding this i think last year.
He shared the creation myst of the bugbears and goblins, i have it at home. But shouldbe found on eds scroll. The only one missing is the hobgoblin one. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 11:55:39
Excuse me for going completely off on a tangent here.
But this dragon ruler in Impiltur that created the hobgoblins, any chance that he died at the hands of it's nobility, and that teh hobgoblins in Impiltur and in the stonelands are really just on a massive crusade to avenge the death of their creator at the hands of some jumped up Impilturan royalty that is also linked to Cormyr.
Not sure how i could link that to the hobgoblins in the Deep Shanatarian subkingdom (Holorar or something like that), but maybe the war with Valashar and Shoon involved some noble branches migrating into contested lands.
Maybe Ilbratha mistress of battles was not created but stolen from this dragon's horde and the hobgoblins want it back.
I am of course totally rambling and connecting things that probably shouldnt be connected but i thought i had best write it down in case it's not a truly awful idea. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 15:38:55
For me, 'the east' has a much closer connection to the Fey Realms - they just call it 'the spirit world'.
Half-fey are very common over there, they call them 'spiritfolk'.
I recall one of the earliest hobgoblin kingdoms also being in the Spiderhaunt Peaks (Khopet Dag), and it was wiped-out by the Imaksari. Can't seem to find a reference to it, though.
EDIT:
Nevermind - I was remembering it wrong - it was the Kobold kingdom of Zexthandrim. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 13:21:47
Feel free. Ed is the one who first pointed me in this direction after I read a throwaway line in "Elminster's Daughter" (hardcover, p.313) where he mentions a "cult" among the hobgoblins that thought eating dragonflesh would make them into a larger, stronger breed and how they used to steal dragon eggs in an attempt to do so.
That set the wheels turning a long time ago and coupled with the Morueme dragon relationship made me think that Ed's reference was to a time when the hobgoblins had thrown off the yoke of the dragons and were seeking to exact revenge on all dragonkind. That made me then think about their origins and I decided that the hobgoblins were the result of a breeding program and had an association with dragons (especially reds and blues) that stretched back over a considerable period of time.
-- George Krashos
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 09:35:11
Ooh I like that origin. It fits my idea of the hobgoblin psyche. A dragon would have wanted tough, ruthless but loyal troops. They could have remained isolated with him for a long time until his death and then spread westwards.
I wonder if he was one of the last dragon overlords like thauglor who had found ways to prevent himself from annihilating his subjects when the rage came (probably by entering a forced slumber).
Hope u dont mind if I steal this one. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 06:19:46
In my Realms, hobgoblins did originate from the lands of the East. That is the mountains around the Unapproachable East and up to the Great Glacier (then smaller). They originated as a result of a selective draconic goblin breeding program instigated by a cabal of dragons, lead by the great wyrm Dremalaugos (type unknown).They firstly bred them bigger (for food purposes) and then smarter (for military and servant purposes). In my Realms, the Morueme dragons have continued this tradition over the millennia and maintained hobgoblin servants - a now unique relationship in the Realms. The hobgoblins of the Gorge of the Fallen Idol may have also had a draconic master. YMMV.
-- George Krashos
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 20:08:46
Lots of early pictures of Hobgoblins portrayed them as "Oriental" sorts of goblins...especially with their armor and weapons. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 16:01:19
Well now im intrigued on two counts. First is what the hobgoblins did around -10000DR. Im guessing it involves the lands that would be impiltur and the nearby mountains.
And secondly GHoTR2.
So why do many of you think hobgoblins arrived in the east, and where did they come from. If it was the fey plane would they not arrive in the west which was more forested and has plenty of fey links (moonshaes, the high forest, the elves).
Not that im trying to argue the point but I am interested in the origin of creatures first so I csn figure out the rest like culture society motives etc.
The evil humanoid races are very scarcely detailed in FR. We have almost no information as to where they come from, how they behave, what customs they have, what drives them, even what they prefer to eat.
I would love to sit down one day (although it might take a year) and hammer out all the details for orcs, goblinkin, ogres, trolls, all the unloved and ugly races of the world that PCs are so happy to butcher without a second thought.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 12:59:27
Not sure about Hobs, but gnolls had a mighty empire during the time of the Creator Races - Urgnarash.
I've likened that empire to the Hutaakans of Mystara (and there may have been some sort of connection). Then when the Mujhari (proto-Imaskari) settled in the then-fertile Raurin basin, they discovered the ruins of that civilization, including a strange 'temple city'. Thats how I shoe-horned in Rip Van Wormer's theories about the Imaskari and Sigil (it is forever being added to by all sorts of beings in the multiverse - the city is actually one of the universe's largest artifacts). Very much homebrew, of course.
I've place hobgoblin beginnings firmly in the east, so their first appearances should be 'over that way', IMO. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 12:48:48
Rest assured, if GHotR II is ever produced, hobgoblins will feature sooner than -3778 DR. My East Timeline features them as early as c. -10,000 DR.
-- George Krashos
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 11:22:13
Looks like I will have to dig out my powers and pantheons book then. If it states hobgoblins then I guess I will have to be quiet. If it just states goblins or goblinkin then that may not include hobgoblins.
I do think hobgoblins are special among the evil humanoids. They are stronger than humans, just as smart amd are capable of organised society. That coupled with the higher birthrate of goblins means these guys should have replaced humans as the dominant species by now if they had been around for 20000 years.
The fact that they arent even mentioned as doing anything until -3778 says to me that these guys are recent.
Plus migrating races are a dime a dozen on toril. We dont have enough races being created through corruption. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 01:21:04
"Powers & Pantheons" (p.2) sets out the timetable of arrivals in order but not with a chronology attached. It is of course (very wisely) pitched in terms of the "unreliable narrator", so we are free to mould it to what is needed. Extrapolating, it would appear that the goblinkin arrived sometime during the beginning of the Dawn Ages as the giants are used as a touchstone and the goblins/hobgoblins/orcs etc appeared "much later". If I had to date it I would put it at c.-26,000 DR, reasoning that Othea's dalliance with Vaprak brings Toril to the attention of the humanoid deities with a resulting influx of their children.
-- George Krashos
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 19:34:09
Well just because he is subservient to Maglubiyet, doesn't mean he couldn't have created hobgoblins. More so if he is the patron of hobgoblins. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 17:05:12
@dazz:
Nomog-Gaeya:
Nomog-Geaya is the hobgoblin deity of War and Authority. His symbol is a crossed longsword and handaxe.
Title(s) The General
Home Plane Infernal Battlefield of Acheron
Power Level Lesser
Gender Male
Class(es)
Alignment Lawful Evil
Portfolio Hobgoblins, War, Authority
Domains Courage, Evil, Law, Strength, Tyranny, War
Nomog-Geaya appears as a huge, powerful goblin with rough, ash-gray skin, cold orange eyes, and teeth like a sharks. He almost always has his broadsword in one hand, and his hand axe in the other. He is said to have no expressions other than a grim, tight-lipped look of domineering authority. He is quiet and only speaks when he must.
Relationships
Nomog-Geaya is subservient to Maglubiyet, and detests Khurgorbaeyag, the patron deity of goblins.
Realm
Maglubiyet allows Nomog-Geaya and Khurgorbaeyag to live in his realm of Clangor on the plane of Acheron, to better keep an eye on them.
Dogma
The Five Directives of the Soldiers of the Last Order are:
Arm yourself with fire and steel.
Rally all hobgoblin tribes under your banner.
Hunt elves and goblins and put them to the sword.
Burn prisoners alive in sacrifice to Nomog-Geaya. Nomog-Geaya will accept no other sacrifice.
Honor no god above Nomog-Geaya.
Worshippers
Nomog-Geaya is the patron deity of hobgoblins, second only to Maglubiyet in hobgoblin religion.
he is lawful evil. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:39:00
Just come across this thread.
I find it strange that the first mention of hogoblins occurs in -3778 DR when hobgoblins gather around the statue of Nomog Geaya at the now Gorge of the Fallen Idol.
In fact that reference is the first i kind find about any goblin race.
Furthermore, in the days of thunder section in GHoTR, it states that none of the races - elves, dwarves, etc, or the savage races orcs, goblins, ogres etc, were present at this time.
Which suggests that either goblinoids migrated at some point, or that maybe they were created on Toril after the days of Thunder.
Now i dont know who Nomog Geaya is, he sounds suitably demonic and is undoubtedly very powerful.
Now around the time of -3778 DR we have Mir/Coramshan and Jhaamdath battle for control of what i can only assume is present day Tethyr (the central plains anyway where the humans probably live).
A truce was brokered and Mir claimed sovereignty over all lands south of the river Ith. Presumably leaving the lands north of the Ith (although they call it the Wurlur) to the barbaric tribes of Tethyr.
Just above these plains are the mountains (cant remember the name) and what is today called the Wealdath, which i would imagine has a substantial elven presence in it at the time of -3778 DR, or if the elves were killed had a substantial presence.
So what if this Nomog Geaya corrupted the elves, or the humans, probably elves since it appears that most of the evil humanoids are just corruptions of the perfection of elves in fantasy fiction (Tolkien orcs for instance) into the hobgoblins of today.
In a few thousand years these hobgoblins could have easily spread across the surface of Toril in secret (they arent that monstrous looking after all and with a thick cloak could be mistaken for humans (with leprosy maybe).
I dont know where goblins or bugbears come from, maybe these are later corruptions of the original hobgoblins. But it does seem significant that -3778 DR is the first mention of them. |
| Jakuta Khan |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 19:31:33
@ markustay:
I had this feeling for a long time as well, they do all this kind of high magic ONLY to have an excuse for lashing out heavily against everybody else, NO other reason!!!!! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:19:46
Proof of sabotage?
{I love conspiracy-theories} 
Anyhow, GK, that bit helped me understand Fey magic better (at least, my interpretation of fey magic), so its all good.
Did either of you like that "taps in the Butterfly effect' explanation? I figure the Elves just aren't as good at it as their fey forebears.
It seems like every time they cast a High Magic Ritual, it is immediately followed by a, "Uh-OHHHHHH..."
To say that it almost always 'gets out of hand' is an understatement.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 09:38:51
Hehe, then of course we had to grit our teeth when we did GHotR and re-date Brian's -24,000 DR date to match up with LEoF. Respect previous products and all that ...
-- George Krashos
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 06:27:39
-Words do not accurately describe the  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 05:12:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Is there any particular reason why "they" wanted a date that, at best, was problematic? Especially since the dating of virtually all of that existed in nebulous ether for the most part and very few parts of all of it had been put down in stone.
None given. We made our submissions to the project head and that was the last we heard till the product hit the shelves.
-- George Krashos
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Mar 2012 : 21:20:00
-Is there any particular reason why "they" wanted a date that, at best, was problematic? Especially since the dating of virtually all of that existed in nebulous ether for the most part and very few parts of all of it had been put down in stone. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 00:13:21
As I recall, the reason it got that date was because Elaine had mentioned Ilythiir in her "Evermeet" novel as existing before the Sundering and by the timeline in "Cormanthyr", Ilythiir had to be in existence before the Sundering took place. That's why WotC mandated that date. Eric and I pushed hard for -24,000 (or some slight variation of that date) and made various arguments as to why that was appropriate (and the reference to Ilythiir could be explained away) but the editors didn't bite. The elven history section wasn't given to Eric to do and all we could do in the mad rush to deadline was tidy up the edges. Best we could manage was the "forward and backward through time" inclusion to leave us wiggle room later on. Unsatisfactory? You betcha.
-- George Krashos
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 20:17:26
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
That's a 4e retcon, or a retcon over those retcons?
-The date of The Sundering was semi-modified to have been in -17,600 in Lost Empires of Faerūn, after having previously been dated much further in the past- roughly in -24,000 DR, by the anecdotal evidence we have for the era, published first in the online first incarnation of AGHotR. The -17,600 DR date, I still maintain was an error, either an accidental one (as in, typing the wrong numbers in), or an intentional but misguided one (as in, we wrote the correct numbers, but how we arrived there is out of wack), because of all of the anecdotal evidence we had about the early Elven realms of Faerūn between their arrival in Realmspace and the Sundering itself that would seemingly defy believability, to have had nearly 10,000 years pass between the arrival of the Elves and the Sundering. As a result, pseudo-time travel, and whatever stuff that still does not make any sense to me, in the context of The Sundering, was introduced to smooth all of that out. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 19:08:19
Its alluded to, but it has yet to be confirmed the Sundering-Ritual actually caused Tintageer's destruction. It probably did, but maybe its better we never really know for sure?
Like I've said elsewhere, i think 'Elven High Magic' is really powerful fey magic, and the fey seem to have some connection to time - their most powerful dweomers appear to cause massive effects by manipulating past events.
Its actually rather elegant - they can increase the power of their spells exponentially, by tapping into things this way. Much easier to create an island when the entire world is 'in flux', then do it whole cloth with your own energies.
It works like this - suppose a planet had a near-miss with a meteor millenia ago. If the Elven Armada wanted to eradicate the entire world (something they have done, IIRC), they would simply alter past events so that the world would have been in the meteor's path. Thats much easier then trying to blow an entire planet up under your own power.
And thats how I think High magic works - they tap-into the 'Butterfly Effect' (which is also why it is so insanely dangerous to use). |
| Barastir |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 16:41:29
I've found this little piece of lore in Evermeet: Island of Elves, something the goddess Angharrad told to Starleaf, the girl who was the center of the ritual that created the Green Isle:
"It is true that Evermeet is in part the result of the magic you and yours tore from the Weave of Life. But that alone would have not availedtoo much of the power of the casting was drawn off by the destruction that resulted. For lack of a better explanation, you might say that Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor, a bridge between the worldsand the combined work of mortal elves and their gods. Do not take too much of the credit upon yourselfand neither should you take all the blame".
However, I think most of the details were really published later. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 15:44:17
Technically, its 3e (although more like 3.75) - Its was in the GHotR.
Considering the book was used as an 'introduction' to 4e (prologue?), a lot of folks might consider it 4e, but technically, no. The GHotR ends in 1385, which is the last official date of the 3e era.
However, the theory that Evermeet was created from Tintageer has been bandied-about nearly since the release of Elaine's novel, and obviously the designers gave that fan-theory a nod (although it is still pretty ambiguous).
@Barastir - Okay, I see what you mean (how could I not?) Sorry for the confusion. I personally don't think it would have happened on Toril, because I would think it was weird for Lolth not to know she was already on a certain planet previously (the text makes it sound like Toril was place she had just discovered). However, it was left open for interpretation, and the whole Abeir/Toril thing really blurs the lines now (since it wasn't the same world regardless)...
Wait a sec!!! 
Didn't K'Narlist get killed by the Sundering? Something doesn't make any sense here. If the ritual reached back into the past (tapping into the earlier planetary sundering), then how was K'Narlist killed by it? The world should have already been changed by the time he arose, or he would have never existed to begin with. 
Time paradoxes... *meh*
Anyhow, that means Lolth would have 'discovered' Toril after the first (deific) Sundering, but before the second (Elven) Sundering, so it still works. The change to the world (including mass and size) would have thrown her off.
Now, unless Ao borrowed matter from elsewhere (a destroyed/missing planet?), that means Abeir-Toril was WAY bigger then Earth, since Toril is still slightly larger then Earth. Unfortunately, we have no idea how big Abeir is (or anything else for that matter).
Maybe in 5e they can make Abeir the dwarven Homeworld (from SJ). Then the famous Dwarven battle-cry, "I'm going out for Abeir!" would make more sense. 
{That joke will make NO sense to non-English speakers... sorry} |
| Barastir |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 15:40:59
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
11) The Eladrin perform a High Magic Ritual which "reaches backwards and forwards in time", creating the isle Evermeet in Toril's past.
That's a 4e retcon, or a retcon over those retcons?
Because this used to be very straightforward: elves split a piece off the continent (with all the... attendant consequences), then the main caster was told he's alive and the plan did succeed, though only due to divine intervention.
Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor brought to Faerūn in a High Magic ritual that makes it be there as it always have been, according to Evermeet: Island of the Elves, still in 2e times. I don't know retcons after, but they may exist.
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