| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 21:48:25
I'm trying to get a good idea of what happened in Mintar and Kzelter following the usurpation of Obril Alaekyn (a former Candlekeep student) by Teldorn Darkhope and the Knights of the Black Gauntlet on Midwinter night in 1362. Specifically, I'm trying to develop an annotated timeline from published canon.
The sources I've identified so far are these:
The Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea boxed sets, which describe the fall of Mintar and Darkhope's subsequent taking of the Tethyrian frontier town of Kzelter, and the Tethyrian and Calishite political and military response. (1364-1370)
Cloak and Dagger, which covers 1369 and 1370 from another angle, revealing the activities of Darkhope (and a visting Fzoul) up to and including the conquest of Kzelter.
The 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which indicates that as of 1372, Darkhope's forces still hold Mintar and Kzelter.
Lords of Darkness, which I believe also is current as of 1372, which lists Darkhope as a subordinate of Fzoul's and also details The Temple of the Black Gauntlet. Here, the temple's location is only given as "almost any location that is at least a day's march from the nearest road," but see below.
Dale Donovan's four-part Perilous Gateways web series on portals in Mintar and Kzelter. This seems to indicate that the status quo as of 1372 is pretty much the same as of the writing of the articles. I can't find anything definitive about their dating, but on the evidence that they were published in 2003 I place the information in the articles current as of 1374 (assuming a one year to one year time advancement, which may not be correct). These articles also explicitly place the Temple of the Black Gauntlet in Kzelter.
...aaaand, that's pretty much it. Does anyone know of any mentions of the Mintar/Kzelter geopolitical situation and the characters involved in it outside the sources I've given? I'm interested in any and all canon sources, including novels, short stories, gaming supplements, online supplements, what have you.
Cheers,
Christopher
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| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Demzer |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 13:52:33
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing to note with the Knights of the Shield... the shield was speaking to them from Gargauth. So, I'm imagining (as I've not seen an official resource) that whenever he disappeared they maybe fell apart?
The Knights of the Shield existed long before Gargauth started messing with them, he, his puppet priest and one of his concubines were steering the Knights operation and trying (with success granted by the Shield enchantments) to turn them into a Gargauth cabal factory (meaning whenever the Knights entered a political circle or influential power group, the whispers of Gargauth would get him a few more worshippers). Gargauth demise (i don't know how it happened but that changes little) may have meant that the Shield stopped messing with the minds of the Shield Council and, at worst, that the priest of Gargauth and his concubine were lost so two less Councilors, no biggie. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 12:21:09
You know, this brings up a question. Where were all the major bastions of Bane worship in the 1370's? We've got Teldorn Darkhope in Mintarn and Kzelter. We've got Fzoul Chembryl and the Zhents (and Fzoul's build up of power in Mulmaster... and one wonders what happened to the Black Lord's Altar that was converted to Cyric in Mulmaster). We've got the Black Lord's Cloak in Mourktar. The Risen Cult of Bane in the Moonshaes which was getting its power through other resources, but with Bane's return one can only assume he took over. Were there any other major power sites? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 10:27:34
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT:
And whats the deal with Amn now, for that matter? They lost half their country to the ogres, all their Maztican holdings in Maztica (with the return of Abeir), and they lost a good chunk of their eastern (and southern) territory to Tethyr - how are they still holding on to anything? Just about everything that made them great is now gone!
I would have thought that 4e Calimshan would have re-absorbed them, at the very least. There is no logical reason why they still exist - they had no 'friends' to help them. The 'wolves' should have carved them up by now.
By the end of 3e Amn was annihilated canon-wise: they lost Maztica, they lost a Council member in the siege of Murann, they lost all the territory south of the Small Teeths to Murannheim and south of the hillforts to Tethyr. This means being cut off from the Trade Road to the Vilhon Reach, losing the second biggest seaport of the nation (Murann), losing all the income of New Amn.
If you add to this that with some funny unexplained magical thingamajig tlincallis (scorpionmen) from Maztica started raiding around the Small Teeth and a joint venture Amn/Murannheim failed to eradicate them we all can see that Amn should not exist as an indipendent unified country in 1480-something (with greatly reduced territory, trade crisis and constant war).
Furthermore in Lands of Intrigue (i believe) the Knights of the Shield traced the ancestry of Pehllus Tanislove (Dahaunarch of the Council) back to the old royal line and were conspiring to turn half of Amn back into a monarchy (with puppet king in their employ) and turn the other half in free territory and reinstate the halfling realm of the past (name eludes me at the moment) so why didn't they act with Amn in complete disarray?
4e Calimshan it's another sack full of something i should not name with the fact it turned into genasi-land royal rumble trashing all history of the land (and showing disrespect to Memnon and Calim too, they were poofed again after being released just to kill their baelnorn guardian apparently).
So it's no surprise fail-Calimshan didn't invade fail-Amn, it's surprising Tethyr didn't do anything (or the elves of Waeldath or Shilmista or the trolls of the Troll Mountains or Balagos the Flying Flame or Iryklathagra and her daughter or the undead giant dude in the Giant's Run Mountains that during 3e was creating the biggest undead giant army ever or Mr-36th-level-demilich Shoon VII or the Knight of the Shield, or the Twisted Rune).
One thing to note with the Knights of the Shield... the shield was speaking to them from Gargauth. So, I'm imagining (as I've not seen an official resource) that whenever he disappeared they maybe fell apart? |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 22:14:27
Ousting Zhents from Kzelter does not automaticly mean free access to the Lake of Steam. Mintar can intercept any trade that goes from the mountain passes of Kzelter to the Lake of Steam and back, also the banite army has had enough opportunity to dig in properly to repell any attempts to kick them out again, Tethyr was lacking time to fortify Kzelter, something the banites had plenty of. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 16:15:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT:
And whats the deal with Amn now, for that matter? They lost half their country to the ogres, all their Maztican holdings in Maztica (with the return of Abeir), and they lost a good chunk of their eastern (and southern) territory to Tethyr - how are they still holding on to anything? Just about everything that made them great is now gone!
I would have thought that 4e Calimshan would have re-absorbed them, at the very least. There is no logical reason why they still exist - they had no 'friends' to help them. The 'wolves' should have carved them up by now.
By the end of 3e Amn was annihilated canon-wise: they lost Maztica, they lost a Council member in the siege of Murann, they lost all the territory south of the Small Teeths to Murannheim and south of the hillforts to Tethyr. This means being cut off from the Trade Road to the Vilhon Reach, losing the second biggest seaport of the nation (Murann), losing all the income of New Amn.
If you add to this that with some funny unexplained magical thingamajig tlincallis (scorpionmen) from Maztica started raiding around the Small Teeth and a joint venture Amn/Murannheim failed to eradicate them we all can see that Amn should not exist as an indipendent unified country in 1480-something (with greatly reduced territory, trade crisis and constant war).
Furthermore in Lands of Intrigue (i believe) the Knights of the Shield traced the ancestry of Pehllus Tanislove (Dahaunarch of the Council) back to the old royal line and were conspiring to turn half of Amn back into a monarchy (with puppet king in their employ) and turn the other half in free territory and reinstate the halfling realm of the past (name eludes me at the moment) so why didn't they act with Amn in complete disarray?
4e Calimshan it's another sack full of something i should not name with the fact it turned into genasi-land royal rumble trashing all history of the land (and showing disrespect to Memnon and Calim too, they were poofed again after being released just to kill their baelnorn guardian apparently).
So it's no surprise fail-Calimshan didn't invade fail-Amn, it's surprising Tethyr didn't do anything (or the elves of Waeldath or Shilmista or the trolls of the Troll Mountains or Balagos the Flying Flame or Iryklathagra and her daughter or the undead giant dude in the Giant's Run Mountains that during 3e was creating the biggest undead giant army ever or Mr-36th-level-demilich Shoon VII or the Knight of the Shield, or the Twisted Rune). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Oct 2013 : 13:54:39
I really do hope someone (Steven Schend would be the obvious choice) at least covers what happened at some point. They just left a 'powder keg' sitting in the middle of an inferno and just ignored it.
That is a MAJOR trade-route (the ONLY land trade route!) for newly-restored Tethyr to the Lake of Steam. True, they have to worry about Amn retaking its wayward cities, but the Sythillisians(sp?) have them busy so Amn won't be sending any armies east any time soon (2e/3e era). Once the hubbub has died down over the restoration, the secessions, and new monster nation (Muranndin), outing the Zhents from Kzelter should have been priority 1 on everyone's list.
Its just such a great story to have just been forgotten about.
EDIT:
And whats the deal with Amn now, for that matter? They lost half their country to the ogres, all their Maztican holdings in Maztica (with the return of Abeir), and they lost a good chunk of their eastern (and southern) territory to Tethyr - how are they still holding on to anything? Just about everything that made them great is now gone!
I would have thought that 4e Calimshan would have re-absorbed them, at the very least. There is no logical reason why they still exist - they had no 'friends' to help them. The 'wolves' should have carved them up by now. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 25 Oct 2013 : 14:27:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks for all the info, guys.
I have a bunch of catching-up to do in that area. I guess when I read 'Zhentarrim', I was thinking Cyricists, not Banites.
Ah! But it was both plus beholders plus the wizards plus Loviatar/Talona worshippers sidekicks plus regular mercenaries/bandits/scoundrels plus demihumans, ecc ...
The Zhents are still a funny lively bunch in my Realms, like in the good old days. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Oct 2013 : 13:58:50
Thanks for all the info, guys.
I have a bunch of catching-up to do in that area. I guess when I read 'Zhentarrim', I was thinking Cyricists, not Banites. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 15:10:17
To clear this up for 4e..
I came across a Living Forgotten Realms adventure that revolved around Mintar.
It speaks of the Banites being still in charge and that they conquered Kzelter.
The name of that adventure is called Malice of Mintar and was done for the Living Forgotten Realms region encompassing Calimshan.
Aside from that, yes Darkhope conquered in the name of Bane, then forged with Fzoul the scepter under Xvim influence and soldified the faiths control over the city, they also then gathered troops and prepared to march on Kzelter which tethyrian forces were trying to fortify against, Bane returned, then the banites conquered it and then... 4e came. If it´s still Teldorn Darkhope in charge due to means to extend his life or a child or relative of his with the same name, i do not know. This adventure merely mentions a Lord Darkhope in the fabric of the story. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 14:50:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, so I missed something - I was just reading the stuff in LoI.
I thought I recalled something about Xyatchu Xvim (sp?), but can't remember where I saw it. If they switched to him (which is what I think may have happened), then they would have become Banites when Xvim gave birth to is daddy, Alien-style.
I guess I need to read some of the newer stuff folks here pointed-to... no such thing as an 'easy answer' in FR {sigh}.
From what i understood Darkhope, his underlings and his armies went the Bane -> Xvim -> Bane route, they were empowered during the Tyrantfog, they hated (and still hate) cyricists.
Well there is a canon explanation for the static situation there: Teldorn Darkhope Junior III is still waiting for orders from Fzoul. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 14:23:32
Okay, so I missed something - I was just reading the stuff in LoI.
I thought I recalled something about Xyatchu Xvim (sp?), but can't remember where I saw it. If they switched to him (which is what I think may have happened), then they would have become Banites when Xvim gave birth to is daddy, Alien-style.
I guess I need to read some of the newer stuff folks here pointed-to... no such thing as an 'easy answer' in FR {sigh}.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Don't know if 4e bothered "updating" the region.
4e didn't 'update' anything - it stomped all over everything. If the lore was lucky, it got ignored instead (which is what I am assuming happened with Kzelter).
So, a town gets taken over by the forces of evil, nearby settlements are 'gearing up for war', and then a century later... NOTHING has happened to change that.
Nice. I think I am starting to prefer 'no lore' over '4e changes'. At least the 'official take' won't stand in my way on this one. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 14:10:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So as far as we know, there has been no changes in Kzelter?
Cyricists still in-charge after all these years? 
Cyricists? Up to 3e Kzelter and Mintar were held by True Banites, not drooling cyricists. The clowns had a foothold in Innarlith (Lake of Steam, near Mintar) through the Sorcerer/Arcane Devotee Pristoleph that was in charge after a coup.
Don't know if 4e bothered "updating" the region. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 13:53:10
So as far as we know, there has been no changes in Kzelter?
Cyricists still in-charge after all these years? |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 26 Feb 2011 : 22:15:20
I don't have anything to add, you've mentioned all the sources I'm aware of. I do concur about Dungeon #69, it's “Sleep of Ages” by Eric Boyd, an excellent adventure and one that does cover some of Darkhope's forces and a few Mintar events. If you have trouble tracking a copy down, please PM me and I might be able to help.
The novel King Pinchis in the same area, but doesn't mention Mintar in any way, just Ankhapur.
I've been using Mintar as the main villain in my PBEM campaign. basically a small group of Darkhop's knights are leading a hobgoblin army against Nagarr (defending by the PCs) in late 1369. None of that is canon, of course!
When you get this annotated chronology done, any chance we can get our greedy little mits on it? :) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 06:11:03
A bunch of stuff that doesn't appear in the Lands of Intrigue material/maps, yet appear on the FRIA map. Quite odd, since some of those locales are practically on top of existing (from LoI) locales, with roads running parallel.
I had thought it was something that was part of a storyline from a novel - perhaps one that was canceled (there is a lot of stuff in that area that's 'new' as of the FRIA update), but now that I've seen that adventure, I think that maybe it could have been part of several Dungeon adventures (since I've checked all the other official Realms modules already).
I mentioned it not too long ago in another thread, but got no response. It all seems to be tied to the Zhentish activities in the south. It added so much new material I couldn't even get it all on the latest version of my Erlkazar map.
But there WILL be a newer one... got my new RAM today...  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 22:52:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, you've managed to (partially) answer another of my questions Quale; I know where the 'Halls of the Sleeping Legion' on the FRIA maps comes from.
Now if I could only find out where the rest of those odd locales came from in that region. Maybe I should read the adventure. 
What "odd locales" are you trying to place?
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Feb 2011 : 06:13:20
Well, you've managed to (partially) answer another of my questions Quale; I know where the 'Halls of the Sleeping Legion' on the FRIA maps comes from.
Now if I could only find out where the rest of those odd locales came from in that region. Maybe I should read the adventure.
Interesting, in that it seems a related magic to what was done in Cormyr (and even more-so, since I've linked some of that to a reclusive clan of dwarves hidden in the Stormhorns in my homebrew stuff).  |
| Quale |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 17:22:20
I can't remember, it's about Vaxall the beholder and mentions that Teldorn created the Doom Brigade (of helmed horrors).
I researched the same thing years ago cause there was an npc about to raise a rebellion against the Banites. I think he's mentioned in EoSS, before the conquest he ran a military academy. Also in a article at the wotc site, but I can't remember. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 16:59:06
Thanks, Quale. Champions of Ruin I've got, but Dungeon #69 will probably be a little more difficult for me to track down. Do you mind telling me what's in the issue that applies here?
Cheers,
Christopher
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| Quale |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 16:51:38
Dungeon 69 and Champions of Ruin |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 03:50:11
Hmmmm. I'm really going to have to dig through my archives for this.  |
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